Would You Protest

[CaptainWho]

I was reading the protest thread a few minutes ago, and it was somewhat illuminating. But not enough. Here's a situation I'd like you folks to evaulate and relate how you would handle it. The time is long past where I could have lodged a protest, if I had standing at all, so this is a hypothetical in some respects but it's a real event.

At a race weekend last year (2004), there were two regional races for my class, and an enduro that also included my class. My brother and I were registered for and ran the enduro (as co-drivers), but not the regionals. The other driver was registered for, and ran, the regionals but not the enduro. (It wasn't the ARRC, wasn't even Road Atlanta)

There's a particular driver in our class who consistently runs "too fast" for the class. In fact, he consistently "pulls" mid- to front-pack cars in higher level classes in the same run group on the straights, which none of the other competitors in the class can do, even after large amounts of time on the dyno tuning their cars in some cases.

When working corners, both my brother and I and other corner workers have noticed that his exhaust smells "strange" during practice and qualifying, and sometimes during the race, though rarely. It smells like an aromatic hydrocarbon or similar compound that's not gasoline or the usual additives. It's very distinct; almost impossible to miss, though hard to localize since he's usually in a group of cars. It took us about six weekends of working corners to be sure which car was emitting the smell.

On the weekend in question, the enduro was on Monday, while the regionals were on Saturday and Sunday. On Sunday, just before the race for that run group, while he was prepping his car for the race, I personally watched him pour a gallon or two of something orange into his gas tank. It looked a lot like the orange antifreeze. I'm not going to go into details, because I don't want to make an accusation here without backing. But I'll say that I can be absolutely certain that it was going into the gas tank, not into the cooling system or anywhere else.

So, here I am, a personal witness to what I believed to be an infraction, but I had no other witnesses, I wasn't a party to the race in question, which presents serious questions about my standing to lodge a protest, at least in my mind, and the car passed the post-race tech, which might or might not have included fuel testing. (I wasn't there to observe the post-race tech)

What would you have done? What do you think I should've done?

[charrbq]

Spread the word as to what you thought you saw. Let his competitors do the watching, but make it sure that you thought you saw something, but might be incorrect...unless you really are certain.

[gran racing]

What Chris said.

If you know anyone in that class, give them the heads-up and let them decide how it should or should not be pursued. Not for you but for others in that class - I would imagine that a fuel test would be relatively inexpensive to test, no?

[seckerich]

Go to the chief steward, head of Tech, or similar official. The additives used can kill you and should be stopped regardless if you are in the race. One warning to the driver, then the gloves are off.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I would have done nothing. That weekend you were not racing against him so a protest is out of the question.

When you are racing in the same group as him, ask the people gridded around him to pay attention to your issue. Inform them of your historical knowledge and your factual sightings. If you get comfirmation that something seems wrong, then take action.

1. Walk up to the guy and ask him what he puts in his tank. Couch it by saying. "It stinks out there on track when I am behind you but it sure seems to get the job done!" You may be surprised at the answer. He may show you the stuff and it may be legal. (Who knows) He may BS you...he may deny not knowing you saw anything.

2. Protest his fuel. The fuel test is easy, can be done at the track and takes little time, I have been witness to the standard test. (Ask your chief of tech/impound about the test, what it can and can't detect and to have the appropriate stuff ready - then decide if it's a smart thing to protest). Cheap protest too.

A lot of people ask what we run in the RX-7's because they often spit flames when we shift quickly...guess what? 87 octane pump gas makes the most power in the 13B in ITS trim!!!! Why tell you that? Hopefully there is a good explanation for the smell other than a cheater.

AB

[dickita15]

Originally posted by seckerich@Dec 31 2005, 09:39 AM
Go to the chief steward, head of Tech, or similar official. The additives used can kill you and should be stopped regardless if you are in the race. One warning to the driver, then the gloves are off.

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This is problematic. I work tech as well as race IT. Competitors are always coming up and saying so and so is illegal. Never have I seen this cause an investigation. It may however be one additional data point for a future post race inspection.

As was suggested I would want to try and find out exactly what the mystery stuff is. If you can be sure of a problem you can protest or get a group to protest. I really think that the facts you have so far are not enough to get me to protest without further facts, but it would be enough to get me to want to learn more.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 31 2005, 07:51 AM
I would have done nothing. That weekend you were not racing against him so a protest is out of the question.

When you are racing in the same group as him, ask the people gridded around him to pay attention to your issue. Inform them of your historical knowledge and your factual sightings. If you get comfirmation that something seems wrong, then take action.

1. Walk up to the guy and ask him what he puts in his tank. Couch it by saying. "It stinks out there on track when I am behind you but it sure seems to get the job done!" You may be surprised at the answer. He may show you the stuff and it may be legal. (Who knows) He may BS you...he may deny not knowing you saw anything.

2. Protest his fuel. The fuel test is easy, can be done at the track and takes little time, I have been witness to the standard test. (Ask your chief of tech/impound about the test, what it can and can't detect and to have the appropriate stuff ready - then decide if it's a smart thing to protest). Cheap protest too.

A lot of people ask what we run in the RX-7's because they often spit flames when we shift quickly...guess what? 87 octane pump gas makes the most power in the 13B in ITS trim!!!! Why tell you that? Hopefully there is a good explanation for the smell other than a cheater.

AB

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Why's that Andy? Especially if it's something that impacts the safety and health of everyone else at the track.


I'd speak to either the Chief Steward or the SOM, and ask their advice. If they say that the only way they can test his fuel, is through a formal protest, I'd file it. Be factual, you observed the driver pour something into his fuel system, that did not appear to be gasoline. You've also notice an unusual smell comming from his car. Problem is, IT probably has the loosest fuel requirements out there. You can run anything from full-blown race gas, to 87 octane pump gas.

[joeg]

When he is not around, open the can and smell--Oxygenates (e.g. nitro) are strong. Better yet sneak a sample to tech.

The best is to ask him for a sample.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 08:52 AM
Why's that Andy? Especially if it's something that impacts the safety and health of everyone else at the track.

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You have to be a competitor/entrant to protest. As I read it, it was on a different day than he was racing. He has no standing to lodge anything THAT DAY.

AB

[Knestis]

I count the required fuel test hose among the very silliest of expenses incurred while building my car. I just can't fathom the tech peeps caring enough to spend the time necessary to check fuel in a bunch of IT cars.

I'm not so sure how prepared the inspectors might be to check fuel for all possible cheats. I am not a chemist but I suspect that they ARE set up to check for the things they typically check - like when they do the track fuel at Nationals - but beyond that...? There's enough science involved that you might encounter issues with a protest.

I don't know for sure but aren't some brands/grades of race gas orange? They color code them with methyl dyes and I saw some at a boat race once that looked like orange KoolAid.

K

[zracre]

Or as he is dumping said orange liquid in the tank...pop up unexpectedly and say "wow that stuff must work!!! where did you get it??" really loud and see his response...if he is trying to hide it he will turn shades of red and purple and you will have your answer...lol Id just ask him nicely first and if he refuses, say the tech will need a sample at impound, smile and walk away...

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 31 2005, 09:23 AM
You have to be a competitor/entrant to protest. As I read it, it was on a different day than he was racing. He has no standing to lodge anything THAT DAY.

AB

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Andy,

The way I read it, they were working corners for the Regionals. Therefore, they are consider participants in the event, and have standing to protest.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 09:57 AM
Andy,

The way I read it, they were working corners for the Regionals. Therefore, they are consider participants in the event, and have standing to protest.

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13.1. WHO MAY PROTEST
The right to protest shall rest with any entrant, driver, organization, or
official taking part in the competition in question. Each, alone, may protest
any decision, act, or omission of the organizers, an official, entrant, driver,
or other person connected with the competition, which the protestor
believes is in violation of the GCR, the Supplementary Regulations , or any
conditions attached to the sanctioning of the event by SCCA (hereafter in
this section collectively referred to as “the rules”). A protest against a
car is also a protest against its driver and entrant.

**********

Is a corner worker an "official"? I don't think so.

**********

6.1. OFFICIALS
The staff of principal officials, whose duty it shall be to direct the control
of the event, may include:
Stewards of the Meeting (SOM)
Chief Steward /Series Chief Steward
Assistant Chief Steward-Safety
Race Chairman
Chief Starter
Chief Course
Chief Flag
Chief of Communications
Chief Timer and Scorer
Chief/Series Chief Technical and Safety Inspector (Scrutineer )
Chief Emergency Services
Chief Observer
Chief Pit
Chief Grid
Chief Race Administration
Chief Registrar
Judges
Chief Sound Control
***********

The supps may name any worker as an official but...when would it EVER be appropriate for a corner worker to lodge a protest against a driver for car legality?

AB

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 31 2005, 09:35 AM
13.1. WHO MAY PROTEST
The right to protest shall rest with any entrant, driver, organization, or
official taking part in the competition in question. Each, alone, may protest
any decision, act, or omission of the organizers, an official, entrant, driver,
or other person connected with the competition, which the protestor
believes is in violation of the GCR, the Supplementary Regulations , or any
conditions attached to the sanctioning of the event by SCCA (hereafter in
this section collectively referred to as “the rules”). A protest against a
car is also a protest against its driver and entrant.

**********

Is a corner worker an "official"? I don't think so.

**********

6.1. OFFICIALS
The staff of principal officials, whose duty it shall be to direct the control
of the event, may include:
Stewards of the Meeting (SOM)
Chief Steward /Series Chief Steward
Assistant Chief Steward-Safety
Race Chairman
Chief Starter
Chief Course
Chief Flag
Chief of Communications
Chief Timer and Scorer
Chief/Series Chief Technical and Safety Inspector (Scrutineer )
Chief Emergency Services
Chief Observer
Chief Pit
Chief Grid
Chief Race Administration
Chief Registrar
Judges
Chief Sound Control
***********

The supps may name any worker as an official but...when would it EVER be appropriate for a corner worker to lodge a protest against a driver for car legality?

AB

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I believe as a worker they could file an RFA and then it would be up to a steward to deal with it. I would have gone to the cheif stew and made an unofficial statement. I would hope that at a minimum that would have at least gotten the compitior a looking at.

[Andy Bettencourt]

While I agree that there may be an official channel to pursue this type of thing I think it's weenie. I may inform other competitors, but never seek action on legality of a driver I am not racing against. In this case, I see it EXTRA weenie if that car is in my class.

Bottom line? Be prepared with knowledge of the fuel test and what it tests for. Have them have the stuff there. Ask the guy about it.

AB

[Catch22]

Kirk,

They test fuel at the ARRC.

If this guy has finished on an ARRC podium in the last few years, he's been tested. At least he was legal on that weekend.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 31 2005, 10:32 AM
While I agree that there may be an official channel to pursue this type of thing I think it's weenie. I may inform other competitors, but never seek action on legality of a driver I am not racing against. In this case, I see it EXTRA weenie if that car is in my class.

Bottom line? Be prepared with knowledge of the fuel test and what it tests for. Have them have the stuff there. Ask the guy about it.

AB

[snapback]69683[/snapback]

Sorry Andy but this attitude is exactly why people are afraid to make a protest. Being labled a weenie or a pussy ar a CS is total BS. If a person feels they actually have seen something that violates the rules then it should be reported and handled rather than ignored and allowed to happen. When you allow someone to cheat you raise the bar for everone else to have to cheat just to keep up. Now On the flipside there is a way in the rules book to handle spitfull protests also. Anyone found to be protesting blindly for the purpose of pissing someone off should be taken out back for a sock and soap party but I believe the only way the system works is protests that force people to hold the line.

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Catch22@Dec 31 2005, 01:39 PM
Kirk,
They test fuel at the ARRC.
If this guy has finished on an ARRC podium in the last few years, he's been tested. At least he was legal on that weekend.

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What do they test it with? Specific gravity measurements? That is not qualitative in the sense it won't tell you what is in the fuel, only that the specific gravity is slightly different from one fuel to the next. Ditto boiling point, colometric methods, flash point, and others.

Unless they have a gas chromatograph setup with spectra from "accepted fuel", as well as spectra and relative retention times of known additives, it is going to be sort of hard to stand on some results and say "Racer X is disqualified, he has XYZ in his fuel". Or a GC/MS. Actually, a GC would be easy to setup and use at the AARC with no trouble and can be obtained very cheaply (read old used stuff).

I suppose if they make you use their fuel and run then any differences through specific gravity, colormetric, etc. can be used to say "Racer X is DQ'ed, his fuel is different".

R

[MMiskoe]

To answer your question: You go and ask the guy what it is. Be friendly, be curious, most of all, play dumb. He'll either tell you what it is and why he thinks its legal or get defensive, shut up, walk away, or challenge a protest. Either way, you learn something. If the challenge to a protest comes up, gloves are off, ask him how to spell his last name & tell him you'll be back in an hour. On the other hand he might be interperting things differently than most and doesn't realize what he's up to, the discussion might lead to some voluntary changes on his part.

If you're protesting, but want to do it from a distance:

I was privy to a protestable situation once where the offense was visible if you knew what you were looking at. Since the rules state that you must file the protest before the race (except as needed), the person was nervous that there might be on track retaliation. So I suggested that person go discuss it w/ the CS. The CS understood the situation and simply created a reason to have the car in impound, at which point the CS started asking questions, told the guy he couldn't make that modification and told him to fix it before the start of the race. All done, no protest, no illegal mod, no problem.

I don't know if a Cheif Steward becomes aware of a situation and does nothing about it are they at all open to censure?

Matt

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 31 2005, 11:43 AM
Sorry Andy but this attitude is exactly why people are afraid to make a protest. Being labled a weenie or a pussy ar a CS is total BS. If a person feels they actually have seen something that violates the rules then it should be reported and handled rather than ignored and allowed to happen. When you allow someone to cheat you raise the bar for everone else to have to cheat just to keep up. Now On the flipside there is a way in the rules book to handle spitfull protests also. Anyone found to be protesting blindly for the purpose of pissing someone off should be taken out back for a sock and soap party but I believe the only way the system works is protests that force people to hold the line.

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Then we will agree to disagree. People don't even protest cars in their class when they "know" they are illegal - nevermind a cornerworker protesting a car on track for a ITCS specific rule? I would hope the corner workers in my area would be more focused on passes under yellow, contact between cars and the overall safety of the space they are occupying.

I don't label anyone but if a cornerworker protested me (who also happened to be in my class in other races) for something they can't or havn't seen as illegal - is BOGUS. Sorry. If the drivers on track don't have the stones to write papers, so be it. THAT is the big issue IMHO - making the process easy enough to be smooth but not so easy it creates the same lititgeous society we have in our court system.

I still don't see where in the rules a cornerworker can do this anyway - and that speaks to my point of it being bogus.

YMMV - and does!

AB