Would You Protest

[CaptainWho]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 31 2005, 01:28 PM
People don't even protest cars in their class when they "know" they are illegal - nevermind a cornerworker protesting a car on track for a ITCS specific rule? I would hope the corner workers in my area would be more focused on passes under yellow, contact between cars and the overall safety of the space they are occupying.

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Well, we surely agree on that, Andy. I would never lodge a protest based on what I saw/heard/smelled from a corner station. I might have a discreet word with the Tech Chief or one of the stewards, though.

But when a specific car does smell odd regularly from the corners, it sure makes me keep an eye on it in the paddock when I'm racing against it. In this case, I wasn't working corners that weekend, but I also wasn't racing against the car in question, though I'm in the same class (he was in the sprints and I was in the enduro).

I guess the bottom line is I'll keep a much closer eye on him, and I'll see what I can get out of him verbally, and go from there based on what happens.

[Bill Miller]

The supps may name any worker as an official but...when would it EVER be appropriate for a corner worker to lodge a protest against a driver for car legality?

Andy, it would be appropriate if the driver was doctoring his fuel w/ something that was illgeal, and could potentially put the worker at risk. Car crashes at said worker's station, said worker responds, and is exposed to the way toxic shit that the driver put in his fuel.

Sorry bud, but you're wrong on this one. Joe's right, the kind of strong-arm tactic that you're suggesting is total BS. Save the machismo and testosterone for the beer party.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 12:49 PM


Andy, it would be appropriate if the driver was doctoring his fuel w/ something that was illgeal, and could potentially put the worker at risk. Car crashes at said worker's station, said worker responds, and is exposed to the way toxic shit that the driver put in his fuel.

Sorry bud, but you're wrong on this one. Joe's right, the kind of strong-arm tactic that you're suggesting is total BS. Save the machismo and testosterone for the beer party.

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[/b]

I really don't know what you mean in the last part of your post. I am convinced that it would be appropriate for that worker to call the situation in and make note of it in their logs - maybe even sending a RFA to the SOM's if they think the situation may be unsafe. I see what you are saying and what I am saying as two different things. Safety and illegality are two VERY different things when lodging a complaint. You may find something illegal as a byproduct of a perceived safety issue but for gods sake, a corner worker protesting a driver on the legality of the car. Sorry, I just don't buy it...and I have yet to see any refuting evidence from the GCR that they even could do so...see 13.1 above.

It's all moot (not MUTE) anyway. We are arguing a situation that would never happen. The advise given above is sound.

1. Talk with them
2. Protest them when you are ready (define your 'rediness' your own way).

AB

[charrbq]

Originally posted by zracre@Dec 31 2005, 03:51 PM
Or as he is dumping said orange liquid in the tank...pop up unexpectedly and say "wow that stuff must work!!! where did you get it??" really loud and see his response...if he is trying to hide it he will turn shades of red and purple and you will have your answer...lol Id just ask him nicely first and if he refuses, say the tech will need a sample at impound, smile and walk away...

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Out of everything I've read or written, this is probably the best idea, if it can be done with the eloquence suggested.

Andy, believe it or not, I pretty much agree with everything you say. As a worker and driver, I've heard some interesting comments on the radios concerning exhaust smells. I've never seen a worker even consider filing a protest. Most likely it would be ignored. But they know who runs in what class and don't fear spreading the word.

It's been my understanding the the method used in fuel testing can be frequently incorrect, and ruled unusable by the stewards. I've witnessed it on a couple of occassions when the track fuel was found non compliant. Specific gravity is, none the less, portable. In my line of work, we use a lot of LC's and GC's. They are anything but portable. If there is a location at a track to place the instrument in a secure and climate controlled environment, with proper maintenance, they will be highly effective. But, in most every case, that ain't gonna happen. The columns and temperature controls in the instruments are really susceptable to damage if the instument is disturbed or improperly maintained.

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by MMiskoe@Dec 31 2005, 06:04 PM


I don't know if a Cheif Steward becomes aware of a situation and does nothing about it are they at all open to censure?

Matt

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Matt,

...I have made an a$$ out of myself a few times trying to right a wrong that I have witnessed and have decided that since the officials take no interest then why should I.
...Case in point:

... I was competing in a SARRC race at Roebling Road several years ago, and I witnessed Rob May getting into Edward Smith's car for qualifying. I checked the entry list to see if he was the registered driver, and he was not. Edward Smith was.

... So while I was on the grid getting ready to go out for qualifying, I called the Chief of the Grid over to my car (Kay Fairer) and informed her of what I saw.

...1.Did she do anything about it?.. No.

...2.Did she let him go on track even though he was not the registered driver for that car?..Yes.

...3.Did he ( Rob May ) qualify the car for the race?.. Yes

...4.Who drove the car in the race? Edward Smith

...5.Is this allowed? Not as far as I know.

...Would you protest? Why? If the officials don't care then why should you make a fool out of yourself.

...So who has the problem? I think it must be me.

...The names have not been changed because they are not innocent.

... Rick Thompson..... Tha Black Sheep w/stones

.... Let me ad this: To me it appears that the only rules that matter are the one's that the Officials take interest in. And, don't make any waves with the class favorites. Sad but true around here

[Knestis]

Originally posted by MMiskoe@Dec 31 2005, 01:04 PM
... I suggested that person go discuss it w/ the CS. The CS understood the situation and simply created a reason to have the car in impound, at which point the CS started asking questions, told the guy he couldn't make that modification and told him to fix it before the start of the race. All done, no protest, no illegal mod, no problem. ...

I dunno, Matt - this kind of thing makes me VERY nervous because it activates the old-boy network. A steward isn't likely to pursue something like that for everyone in the paddock, right? That means that one would need to call on a "know-who" to make that process work. THAT, to my mind, simply inflames the influence that informal, buddy-buddy relationships have on the process, which just contributes to problems.

People think the system is flawed by politics, folks who aren't pals with the decision-makers don't dare file paper, and there's a lot of room for accusations of favoritism - in this case, well-founded ones, I think. It's just the flip side of the "don't file a protest outside of your home (track, region, division, whatever)" warning.

K

[Marcus Miller]

two questions:

A) Lefty- was this an RX-7? Are you sure whatever was orange, wasn't pre-mix? (I ask that from a perspective of ignorance, since I premix, but don't know if that is even legal in IT.) Those in SFR can feel free and protest me.

B ) Additives can easily be cancer causing and dangerous. Find out what it is, and make sure you are not putting yourself at risk by attending (particicpating, driving in, flagging, etc) the event.

Marcus

[Bill Miller]

As I said before, the system is truly broken.

[itaintegra31]

Originally posted by Marcus Miller@Jan 1 2006, 12:13 AM
Those in SFR can feel free and protest me.



Marcus

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I will besure and do that at our first race. LOL

[CaptainWho]

Originally posted by Marcus Miller@Dec 31 2005, 07:13 PM
A) Lefty- was this an RX-7? Are you sure whatever was orange, wasn't pre-mix? (I ask that from a perspective of ignorance, since I premix, but don't know if that is even legal in IT.) Those in SFR can feel free and protest me.

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Marcus, it was premix, but RX-7s aren't the only cars out there using premix. I've seen a lot of premix over the years, inside racing and outside, using a wide variety of base fuel and mix oil. I've never seen any that approached the flourescent orange of the "environmentally safe" antifreeze, and that's the color I saw being poured. I don't (yet) know what it was. I don't know if it was illegal or not. I don't know if the standard fuel tests would catch it. I'll attempt to find out, though.

[Bill Miller]

It's my understanding that the pre-mix really confounds the fuel tests. As was pointed out, the only sure way to do it, is w/ some type of analyitical instrument. GC/MS would be definative, but you could probably develop a regular GC method. LC _might_ work, but I imagine GC would be better. Or, you could possibly use an IR spectrophotometer, but you'd need known standards to compare against.

And GC's aren't all that delicate. I've seen old H-P 5880s and 5890s set up in some pretty rough mfg plant environments.

As Kirk pointed out, the fuel test port thing is pretty much a waste of time and money. When was the last time you heard of anyone in IT having their fuel randomly tested (ARRC notwithstanding)?

[Maddog]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 03:57 PM
Andy,

The way I read it, they were working corners for the Regionals. Therefore, they are consider participants in the event, and have standing to protest.

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Workers can not protest a car, check GCR 13.4.

[Maddog]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 31 2005, 05:17 PM
I believe as a worker they could file an RFA and then it would be up to a steward to deal with it.

As I read GCR 6.11.4 only the Chief Steward can file an RFA. Workers should have a chat with him.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Maddog@Jan 1 2006, 09:08 AM
As I read GCR 6.11.4 only the Chief Steward can file an RFA. Workers should have a chat with him.

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I agree, I think that if a TM was to talk to the Chief Stew then an RFA could be issued.

The real point is that if somebody is juicing their fuel its gonna cost us all. If anyone feels or see's this happening they need to take action.

[wbp]

It is incorrect that information on sanctions against officials is not in the GCR. See 6.6.2 and 6.6.3 of the GCR. But more information is in the Stewards Manual (bigger than the GCR!). Pay attention and you will notice volunteers who are no longer operating at the level they previously did, or that no longer participate as an official. But you certainly will not see any public notice posted anywhere of these actions. Sanctions do happen. but quietly.
As to the statment to never protest anyone in their home region, I don't think you will find a case where the Chairman of the Stewards of the Meet will be from the home region. See 6.10. The Chairman is the one assigned the duty to see that a fair hearing is held.
And the information that a corner worker can't initiate a protest is incorrect. But they will have to initiate it thru the Flag Chief, who is designated as an Official. (6.1). This provision applies to all workers, who must work thru their chief. And these protests do happen.

[RSTPerformance]

Talk to the guy... see what the stuff is!!! When it comes to something mechanical I would not even consider protesting someone who I havn't talked to first. I might talk to them, find them to be ignorant or an .... and then protest the same weekend, but I would at least try to talk to them first.

Good Luck;

Raymond

Andy, interesting catch on the corner workers...

[KevSC1]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 1 2006, 11:30 AM
When was the last time you heard of anyone in IT having their fuel randomly tested (ARRC notwithstanding)?

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IRP, double regional May '03.

I don't think they did it this year.

[Marcus Miller]

Originally posted by itaintegra31@Dec 31 2005, 07:12 PM
I will besure and do that at our first race. LOL

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And see how many cool pictures I take of you guys beating our car! :P

(Our car not actually in photo, way too far back!)

Marcus

[tom_sprecher]

This goes way back but I seem to remember Bel-Ray made a high dollar 2 stroke oil that was "gold" in color. Maybe it was just oil.

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 1 2006, 06:30 AM
When was the last time you heard of anyone in IT having their fuel randomly tested (ARRC notwithstanding)?

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You guys don't run in the MidWest Division, I can tell. We do random fuel testing at >50% of the races. The procedure involves specific gravity testing - as well as multiple reagent tests.

I'm NOT defending it, as a procedure - but I know of no better, workable, solution. If any of you guys has a "better" idea that is workable, I'd love to hear it. Current material cost is nearly $5 / test, so it isn't cheap to do. And I know of people who have been on both sides of the test - illegal fuel not caught, and legal fuel being disqualified.

I'm no fuel expert - but it is my understanding that one of the hot setups is an additive so volatile that it will boil off, leaving no trace, during the ~30 minutes from when it is added to the cell to when the car would get to impound.