The protest thread carry over from ITC

[JLawton]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 30 2005, 09:20 AM
Is it that the process is obscure?
Is it the fear of being blackballed?
Is it the reality that even if the competitor is illegal and we are vindicated we will still be feel blackballed?

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I think it's a matter of proving it. Plain and simple!!

I know it's tough Rob, but try not to be too cynical!!

Looking forward to running with you this year!!

[gran racing]

So, if you're worried about dealing with confrontations and/or protests, ask yourself one key question: do you want to stay pissed off just to keep from pissing off someone else? Hey, "it's your choice." - GA

Excellent point Greg and you’ve got me thinking…

Why aren't the top three or five rolled over the scales? Just give the illusion that impound is a formal process that can have negative outcome to a cheater.

In many cases the top three are rolled over the scales. For me it was pretty interesting. I think no matter how much the car weighed, I would be a bit nervous. This summer when they rolled my car over, I learned that maybe I went a little overboard adding weight back to the car. Scales are just a very minor step to policing cars.

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by JLawton@Dec 30 2005, 05:31 PM
I know it's tough Rob, but try not to be too cynical!!

Looking forward to running with you this year!!

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I'm trying to learn the ropes Jeff. And as a guy with maybe a new perspective-rying to shed some light on some inconsistencies that I see, that may get overlooked when you've been doing it for a while. The whole forest through the trees thing. I hope my curiousity hasn't come off as cynicism or abrasiveness that wasn't my intent. I'm a better learner if I get to ask a lot of questions!!


And, I'm still waiting for deatils about next year!

R

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 29 2005, 06:11 PM
Andy I understand you are not afraid to write paper but as I have watched- you are the minority. Everyone else, myself included, seems scared to. I commend you for your integrity and I agree with everything you say.

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...Biggest thing I have learned about protests is:

... 1. Never protest a driver from the same region that is hosting the event. Especially if it is not your region of record.

... 2. If it is an on track incident and the corner workers did not make a report, forget it. Your word doesn't mean Jack _ _ _ _ Even if you have it on Tape and your car is torn all to pieces.

... 3. If you loose your protest because you did not observe rule #1 or #2 and you gather witness statements and file an appeal providing a tape of the incident from a following car etc.... You are really stupid...... Last thing officials will do is overturn another officials decision..... Then they make up something and put it in Fast Track.

... If you don't believe it .... PM me and I can show you.........

... So, let's not say "Scared To"

... Let's say... "Know Better"

... Rick Thompson
... 2000, 01, 02, Wonder what happened??? 04, 05 SCCA SARRC IT7 Champion

... This is my bias opinion, individual results may vary.

... Oh, and last but not least, Always ask to go see the On Track Medical Staff after an on track incident involving contact. In some cases the ????? are to busy trying to hide the truth and will forget to see to your needs. Even when you have a concussion.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Dec 30 2005, 12:36 PM
...Biggest thing I have learned about protests is:

... 1. Never protest a driver from the same region that is hosting the event. Especially if it is not your region of record.

... 2. If it is an on track incident and the corner workers did not make a report, forget it. Your word doesn't mean Jack _ _ _ _ Even if you have it on Tape and your car is torn all to pieces.

... 3. If you loose your protest because you did not observe rule #1 or #2 and you gather witness statements and file an appeal providing a tape of the incident from a following car etc.... You are really stupid...... Last thing officials will do is overturn another officials decision..... Then they make up something and put it in Fast Track.

... If you don't believe it .... PM me and I can show you.........

... So, let's not say "Scared To"

... Let's say... "Know Better"

... Rick Thompson
... 2000, 01, 02, Wonder what happened??? 04, 05 SCCA SARRC IT7 Champion

... This is my bias opinion, individual results may vary.

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The fact that someone wrote this shows how truly broken the system is!!!

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 30 2005, 06:57 PM
The fact that someone wrote this shows how truly broken the system is!!!

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Sorta what I had pieced together from all of it.

R

[dave parker]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Dec 30 2005, 01:36 PM
...Biggest thing I have learned about protests is:

... 1. Never protest a driver from the same region that is hosting the event. Especially if it is not your region of record.

... 2. If it is an on track incident and the corner workers did not make a report, forget it. Your word doesn't mean Jack _ _ _ _ Even if you have it on Tape and your car is torn all to pieces.

... 3. If you loose your protest because you did not observe rule #1 or #2 and you gather witness statements and file an appeal providing a tape of the incident from a following car etc.... You are really stupid...... Last thing officials will do is overturn another officials decision..... Then they make up something and put it in Fast Track.

... If you don't believe it .... PM me and I can show you.........

... So, let's not say "Scared To"

... Let's say... "Know Better"

... Rick Thompson
... 2000, 01, 02, Wonder what happened??? 04, 05 SCCA SARRC IT7 Champion

... This is my bias opinion, individual results may vary.

... Oh, and last but not least, Always ask to go see the On Track Medical Staff after an on track incident involving contact. In some cases the ????? are to busy trying to hide the truth and will forget to see to your needs. Even when you have a concussion.

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Rick
I am sorry that you had a bad experience with the protest system. I have also been the short end of that stick. A long (25+ year SCCA) racer and friend said to me when I first started racing, "Protests are a part of racing, they will happen, you just have to keep your head, and not get worked up about them."

I feel that as we are all big boys and girls that we can resolve our differences in the paddock with out having to involve the stewards. I say this because my gut feeling is that nothing good comes out of going to the tower, somebody (or everybody) will be unhappy afterwards.

But the system does work, and the National Court of Appeals will right the wrongs of the SOM, IF (BIG emphasis here) you have supporting evidence and have followed proper procedure. Sending a rehash of the evidence that the SOM saw is NOT going to do it. You must have NEW evidence that the SOM did not see or was not available at the track.The proof of my statements can be found in this years October Fastrack appeals section.

I think the big thing that people forget is this is all for fun.

All of this is merely my opinion and worth exactly what it cost you ($0.00).

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

[lateapex911]

I can see how it can be extremely frustrating when a protest runs amuck.....but, when dealing with officials, I think we need to assume the same things we need to assume regarding a "cheating" competitor...that human error is the first stop.... then, if that has been eliminated from the list, thenyou can consider intentions of abuse.

IF the protest goes afoul, and there are errors made in the process, I think that further official actions are needed. In our situation, I feel strongly that grave errors were made in the process, and I (we) should have been bettter prepared with a "All hell has broken loose" plan, LOL. I was SHOCKED at the results, and dumbfounded.

IF I find myself in the same position again, you can bet I will be reading the rulebook carefully to know what the next move would be.....before I ever file the first peep. It all turned out well in our case, but it was a close call. One comment...and a certain "look" from an official I have known for years ...and can read a facial expression of...saved the day. If it hadn't been for that, I am sure that further protests....this time against the Stewards, and an appeal of the results would have taken place.

No matter the results of those actions, a huge red flag would have been sent up, and the systems breakdowns would be exposed up the ladder. I think it is very hard to "squash" such a thing these days. An advisor said to me that day, when I was discussing furhter actions, "What would your goal be to take this further? What will you lose? What can you gain?"

Good questions, and at the time I might have been apt to see that the actual protest would remain "lost", and might have let it go. Today I see the bigger picture and recognize the importance of continuing when the result won't be ideal.

I disagree with Ricky to a degree, although I respect his experince, that his rules are not 100%. But they are things to consider! No matter what, expect that the process will be time consuming and emotionally draining...racing is far easier! Do your homework!

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by dave parker@Dec 30 2005, 08:31 PM
my gut feeling is that nothing good comes out of going to the tower, somebody (or everybody) will be unhappy afterwards.

Sending a rehash of the evidence that the SOM saw is NOT going to do it. You must have NEW evidence that the SOM did not see or was not available at the track..

I think the big thing that people forget is this is all for fun.

"dangerous" dave parker

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..Dave,

... I agree on the ( everybody ) will be unhappy afterwards.

... And if you appeal, be sure to send new evidence, just as I did.

... And a whole hearted Yepppeee on the "this is all for fun".

... That little phrase has changed the way I have raced ever since 2003. I no longer put myself "at risk" when the racing gets unpredictable. If I feel that I might get involved in an incident with another driver because of bad habits, or, poor judgement, then I just back off. I would rather give a little than lose a lot.

... I tested this theory this year and got my first DF with my car. I did put myself "at risk" but I chose where, and when, and gave myself a "safe out" if the inevitable was to happen (and it did). But at least I still had a car. And a little more understanding of my fellow competitors.

... And I did not protest, thought about it, but, rule #2 applied, so, I tucked my tail and kept my mouth shut. Saved a bunch of time and only pi$$ed one person off .... me

... Rick

[Bill Miller]

Sadly, protesting officials will only get you one thing, blackballed.

[Peter Olivola]

Not by me or any of the other stewards I work with. If protesting me results in a rule/operational clarification then I welcome it.

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 10:37 AM
Sadly, protesting officials will only get you one thing, blackballed.

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[Catch22]

Protesting is tricky. Its hard to do, and it should be. Frivolous protests could ruin reputations and make our sport a whole lot less fun.

There are lots of reasons and examples why protests should be very well thought out before executed. I have several...

A certain guy from Louisiana just keeps winning the ARRC ITC race. Against REALLY strong competition. For years, I'd heard how he simply HAD to be cheating. His car was "too fast."
Well, now I've raced against him a few times and while his car is fast, thats not why he keeps winning. I know, as well as anyone, why he keeps winning, and there's nothing illegal about it.
And... Winning the ARRC 5 (is it 5? Dammit.) times means he's been torn down alot. If he's cheating, he's doing it well enough to not get caught, so more power to him!!!

I whipped out my car in 2003, and after some development of both driver (driving an ITC car requires a different approach than a 175hp Integra) and car I went straight to the front of a very strong division.
Naturally, I was cheating. Right?
Or maybe I built a "no excuses" car. How many ITC cars out there have 35 dyno pulls on them, custom valved Konis, and a Sunbelt motor?
Not many.
My car wasn't illegal, but it did raise the bar a bit. Had I not firmly planted my head in my ass on lap 10 I WOULD HAVE won the ARRC this year. The car was just that damned good.
But a bunch of people would have tried to convince you to protest it.

How about a driving protest?
The incident that totalled my aforementioned car was ugly. Renee got hit in the RR right at the apex of turn 12 and turned straight into the inside wall.
Protest that guy!!! Right?
Well, I'll admit I was really pissed off right after the incident. From my vantage point it looked like the other driver had tried a crazy inside pass with 2 wheels in the grass in turn 12. I was seeing blood, even though I know that driver and know he's a really nice guy.
After things settled down, and we started looking at video and discussing things, the truth came out. The car that caused the incident was the Miata in front of the whole thing. He checked up entering the turn, causing Renee to check up and pull right to keep from hitting him. This left the guy behind Renee with nowhere to go but into her bumper. His 2 wheels in the grass wasn't a stupid pass attempt, it was a HUGE effort to not hit her.
But we all had to get together and talk it through to understand this. At first, second, and even third glance, it looked like my car had been totalled due to sheer stupidity from the guy behind it.
We even had an official meet us as Renee was leaving the care center and ask if we wanted to file a protest. He was watching from the tower, and his first impression was that the incident was the fault of the trailing driver and totally unacceptable.

This racing stuff is pretty complicated.

[charrbq]

Scott,
I know that you feel that you would've won the race if you hadn't put it up the chute, but really, it's doubtful. The 5 time champ probably hadn't used 4th gear yet. But I understand the sentiment.

As an aside, that guy has been torn down at the ARRC and checked by every scrutineer and competitor every year, save two, since '97. Every year found legal. In '97, his first win, the tech guys had tear down all the way to 5th and 6th to find a 2nd and 3rd place finisher.

The reason he wins is in that slightly balding, somewhat alcohol damaged head.

[Catch22]

I hadn't used everything in my bag yet either .

The reason he wins is in that slightly balding, somewhat alcohol damaged head.

Yep, and I had him figured out.
Had I gotten to turn 12 ahead of him, it was very likely all over. Ask him, I'll bet he'll say the same thing.
Problem was, I tried too hard to beat him to turn 12, and wrote a check my ass couldn't cash. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 08:37 AM
Sadly, protesting officials will only get you one thing, blackballed.

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Didn't have any effect on me.

I was part of a protest of the Chief Stew (IIRC). During qualifying they black flagged all and some of us were sent to the garage and others were sent back out to qualify. When those of us who got screwed figured it out it was too late to go back out, qualifying was being checkered.

Our protest was upheld, however there was no recourse. We still got screwed (which was REALLY bad for me since I was still working on learning the track so I had zero hot laps) but I'm sure it wasn't good for the Chief Stew.

Never felt a single repercussion.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Catch22@Dec 31 2005, 11:05 AM
This racing stuff is pretty complicated.

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Boy howdy.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Peter Olivola@Dec 31 2005, 10:59 AM
Not by me or any of the other stewards I work with. If protesting me results in a rule/operational clarification then I welcome it.

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Spare me the rhetoric Peter. I've been told point blank, by other officials, that protesting an official would not be in my best interest. Even though the official in question totally over-stepped their authority, and flat out lied to me. Problem was, the official was a very influential member of the Region's BoD.

And George, I suspect that was because of two things, first it was a group of people, and second there were no repercussions to the official. Do something that gets upheld, or worse yet, gets overturned on appeal, and goes your way, and then see what happens.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 06:06 PM
And George, I suspect that was because of two things, first it was a group of people, and second there were no repercussions to the official. Do something that gets upheld, or worse yet, gets overturned on appeal, and goes your way, and then see what happens.

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Bill, I think you are making an assumption here. Our protest WAS upheld. By my more limited understanding of how it affects officials, I am pretty sure there would be a prescribed repurcussion. Just because they couldn't do something to help us out doesn't mean that the properly filed protest that was heard and upheld didn't come without repercussions to the official.

Perhaps someone who is an official can explain further, but I seem to remember something about penalties that can be assessed against officials' licenses.

[Bill Miller]

So tell me George, what happened to the officials in question?

[Peter Olivola]

Rhetoric? I don't know your situation and did not comment on it. I don't think I could have been more direct, Bill. I told you what I would/wouldn't do if protested by a competitor and why. Is there a problem with that?

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 31 2005, 08:06 PM
Spare me the rhetoric Peter. I've been told point blank, by other officials, that protesting an official would not be in my best interest. Even though the official in question totally over-stepped their authority, and flat out lied to me. Problem was, the official was a very influential member of the Region's BoD.