The protest thread carry over from ITC

[Doc Bro]

To continue from where Andy left off in the ITC thread.....

Andy I understand you are not afraid to write paper but as I have watched- you are the minority. Everyone else, myself included, seems scared to. I commend you for your integrity and I agree with everything you say.

My point is how do you "KNOW" someone is cheating in regards to their motor program or something not blatant?

Do you: (sarcastic)

A.) Get them drunk the night before till they fess up?
B.) Sneak into their shop at night armed with an X-ray machine and Polaroid camera?
C.) Dress up as an armed robber and kidnap them asking for the truth or their first born gets it.

As I see it there's a guy (call him Mr. Holmes) who when you mention his name, everyone mumbles or rolls their eyes.....and says cheater, but no one does anything. (I was given covered mouth advice my first race to stay away from him or he'll try to kill you out there!!!) I WATCHED him destroy two race cars this year.....results: NOTHING.

See if a cheater comes out and STEALS a top spot it gives everyone else a loss. You maybe running for the top 3 next year.....but my goal is for a top 10 because given my level that is what I have set for my goal. If someone passes under yellow and it doesn't get snagged by a worker they may have denied me my goal...regardless if they would have passed me next lap or not. The fact is they got the "pass" by an unearned, illegal, and dangerous means which should have consequences and certainly should not be rewarded.

R

[charrbq]

I'm not certain how many people know this, but I'm not trying to be a smartass. If a pass is made under a yellow, and is witnessed by a worker (whether it's a corner worker, grid, fast pits, sound, or steward), it must be witnessed by two workers. One will not do it. It must be documented (written testament), dated, with time of infraction, signed by at least two witnesses, and have the license/membership numbers attached to the document.

What happens in a lot of cases, is that only one worker sees the pass, because there just aren't that many people staffing the corner. Usually, if there's a waiving flag, then something is going on in the area that involves a lot of attention by sometimes several workers. However, in most cases, an in car video will work as a witness, or, in most case, in lieu of a witness.

Normally, if only one worker sees the infraction, and it is written up, the one of the stewards will find the offending driver and spank his hand.

[dave parker]

Originally posted by charrbq@Dec 29 2005, 01:24 PM
I'm not certain how many people know this, but I'm not trying to be a smartass. If a pass is made under a yellow, and is witnessed by a worker (whether it's a corner worker, grid, fast pits, sound, or steward), it must be witnessed by two workers. One will not do it. It must be documented (written testament), dated, with time of infraction, signed by at least two witnesses, and have the license/membership numbers attached to the document.

What happens in a lot of cases, is that only one worker sees the pass, because there just aren't that many people staffing the corner. Usually, if there's a waiving flag, then something is going on in the area that involves a lot of attention by sometimes several workers. However, in most cases, an in car video will work as a witness, or, in most case, in lieu of a witness.

Normally, if only one worker sees the infraction, and it is written up, the one of the stewards will find the offending driver and spank his hand.

[snapback]69484[/snapback]

This is only somewhat true. When I was protested this past summer for "purposely forcing" another ITC driver off the track I protested him for hitting me and for passing three cars under the Full Course Yellow being displayed at the following flag stations. I had a witness statement from one of the other drivers who was passed under the FCY as well as my own in car video as evidence. The SOM heard the witness and watched my video, and went on to declare that my protest was "vexatious" and disallowed it. This was in spite of the fact that in my video you can clearly see the other driver pass other cars and clearly see the TWO flag stations displaying the FCY. The National court of appeals overturned the SOM's ruling later.
So it really depends on who the stewards are, what they see, and what they WANT to see. I am convinced that the SOM that weekend was definately the "B" team.

Doc Bro,
Please do not take this as a personal attack. Just my advice and worth exactly what it cost you ($0.00).

If you think that someone is doing something illegal than go to them and confront them. If you can't do that then go through the protest process. If you can't say what you think to them face to face then please don't go to a public forum to discuss it. That is childish, uncalled for and just plain rude. Having recently been the victim of that I can tell you that it is not fun. Oh, if you lose the protest go and apologize, that is just good manners.

If you need help with understanding the protest process or how to write a viable protest then ask. You can PM me and I would be happy to help. Or ask here and you can get twenty different opinions on how to do it. Most of which will be right.

cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by dave parker@Dec 29 2005, 07:13 PM
Doc Bro,

If you think that someone is doing something illegal than go to them and confront them. If you can't do that then go through the protest process. If you can't say what you think to them face to face then please don't go to a public forum to discuss it. That is childish, uncalled for and just plain rude.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker

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Dave,
That's exactly what I did to the driver that passed me under yellow. I pulled him aside and spoke to him privately (well sort of... my Dad was there). I told him I respected him as he has always been fair to me....but, I did tell him what he did was BS and I wouldn't stand for it in the future. When we spoke, by the way, he totally denied it. I asked him if he wanted to see the video (as I was rewinding it) and he said no and apologized (and admitted it). He "knew" he was guilty and I should have probably been more formal about it. "Knowing is different from "not seeing".

I don't take what you said as offensive because I didn't give you the whole story! My bad.

But the point is. If a person is confronted every weekend by a different individual driver then that person has been given a lot of "free passes". No?

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rob,

I can't wait to race in ITA this year. I know it's a great bunch. A few thoughts and some full disclosure:

- I have never protested nor been protested in my 15 years of racing - national-level solo or road racing
- I have been privy to protest discussion, decisons, thought process' and have acted as liesons to drivers whom I thought to be getting the shaft.
- I have raced in classes where there were protest-happy people
- I have raced in classes where nobody would protest
- I fully believe that eveyone should have video going to prove disprove accusations and/or errors misinterpretations by corner workers that happen few and far between

Things I would do:

1st - talk with the person about on-track stuff I feel upset about. Depending on the reaction and results, wait for another incident and proceed from there.
2nd - if it's a 'component' issue, I need to be an expert on the topic. If there is a abnormally fast car, talk with the top tuners and formulate a basis for protest - it must be complete and well founded.
3rd - I must be fully aware of my own situation. The Miata I am going to put on the track this year will not be short on equipment. I need to make sure I am up to speed before I make any snap judgements on WHY someone is faster. Example: If I have a pro motor and someone drives away from me in a similar make/model - I have a decision to make and some investigation to do. If I see Acura's driving away from Serra-type stuff, we have issues.

The "Protest Story" by Jake is troubling to me and I would love to have been sitting at that table.

I am a firm believer in a open hood policy in impound for all classes. I am also a firm believer in tech posting a laundry list of stuff they MAY check during the year. Fear is a great motivator.

More and more stuff keeps popping into my head and I can't type fast enough. I would be happy to talk off-line about generalities, specifics, NER, whatever.

508-878-2228

The net/net is that you talk first, shoot second. If the issue is important to you, act. If the track position/points are important to you, act. I can tell you that I will should the situation arise.

Maybe a "Protest Seminar" at Regional Annual Mettings? Could accomplish a few things:

- Intro's to SOM's and drivers who are interested
- Education on the process, it's flow and expectations
- A more open line of communication between the factions

AB

[zracre]

Originally posted by charrbq@Dec 29 2005, 02:24 PM

What happens in a lot of cases, is that only one worker sees the pass, because there just aren't that many people staffing the corner. Usually, if there's a waiving flag, then something is going on in the area that involves a lot of attention by sometimes several workers. However, in most cases, an in car video will work as a witness, or, in most case, in lieu of a witness.

Normally, if only one worker sees the infraction, and it is written up, the one of the stewards will find the offending driver and spank his hand.

[snapback]69484[/snapback]

There was an incident at the ARRC where someone on this site may have passed me in the sprint race under yellow...i didnt see the yellow or I guess he didnt either...the point is the stewart called him in and told him I was protesting him with the form in my hand...when he approached me and told me this I was flabergasted! I couldnt believe a steward would say something like that! I may not have been paying attention when the pass was made, but that meant I didnt see the yellow either...almost made an enemy out of someone I dont know very well but know he wouldnt intentionally do something like that. I let it go...I am not the type to protest...and I know I have been beaten from some real questionable cars...too much trouble for a hobby. If someone needs to cheat to win, and everyone knows they are cheating, did they really win?

[RacerBill]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 04:13 PM
Rob,

I can't wait to race in ITA this year. I know it's a great bunch. A few thoughts and some full disclosure:

- I have never protested nor been protested in my 15 years of racing - national-level solo or road racing
- I have been privy to protest discussion, decisons, thought process' and have acted as liesons to drivers whom I thought to be getting the shaft.
- I have raced in classes where there were protest-happy people
- I have raced in classes where nobody would protest
- I fully believe that eveyone should have video going to prove disprove accusations and/or errors misinterpretations by corner workers that happen few and far between

Things I would do:

1st - talk with the person about on-track stuff I feel upset about. Depending on the reaction and results, wait for another incident and proceed from there.
2nd - if it's a 'component' issue, I need to be an expert on the topic. If there is a abnormally fast car, talk with the top tuners and formulate a basis for protest - it must be complete and well founded.
3rd - I must be fully aware of my own situation. The Miata I am going to put on the track this year will not be short on equipment. I need to make sure I am up to speed before I make any snap judgements on WHY someone is faster. Example: If I have a pro motor and someone drives away from me in a similar make/model - I have a decision to make and some investigation to do. If I see Acura's driving away from Serra-type stuff, we have issues.

The "Protest Story" by Jake is troubling to me and I would love to have been sitting at that table.

I am a firm believer in a open hood policy in impound for all classes. I am also a firm believer in tech posting a laundry list of stuff they MAY check during the year. Fear is a great motivator.

More and more stuff keeps popping into my head and I can't type fast enough. I would be happy to talk off-line about generalities, specifics, NER, whatever.

508-878-2228

The net/net is that you talk first, shoot second. If the issue is important to you, act. If the track position/points are important to you, act. I can tell you that I will should the situation arise.

Maybe a "Protest Seminar" at Regional Annual Mettings? Could accomplish a few things:

- Intro's to SOM's and drivers who are interested
- Education on the process, it's flow and expectations
- A more open line of communication between the factions

AB

[snapback]69509[/snapback]

Andy: Wish I was still living up your way. Would be fun to protest errrrrr, I mean race with you.

(Formerly from New York)

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by zracre@Dec 29 2005, 08:48 PM
If someone needs to cheat to win, and everyone knows they are cheating, did they really win?

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It depends on how you look at it. I've been, as we all have, a fan of racing my whole life. More importantly I love the rags to riches underdog stories. (what can I say I'm a softy). If someone cheat and beat some kid or worse some guy who's been doing it for 20 years without a win that would really be a heartbreaker. I've seen competitors poo-poo other competitors wins because they have "labeled" them as a cheater.

I just wish as a new guy the process was more clearly defined for me. More importantly:

I wish other competitors defended the process on track as vehemently as they defend the rules debates (washerbottle thread comes to mind ) which take place on this forum.

It would make it so much easier as I have learned so much about the rules by paying attention to this BB. It seems to me that things get hashed out here extensively- but "washed away" on track by saying everyone knows he's cheating sooo....his win doesn't count [in my mind]. Double-standard??

R

PS Andy, I really look forward to reading your posts......very informative and well thought out. You're an asset to this sport.

[dave parker]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 29 2005, 02:29 PM
Dave,
That's exactly what I did to the driver that passed me under yellow. I pulled him aside and spoke to him privately (well sort of... my Dad was there). I told him I respected him as he has always been fair to me....but, I did tell him what he did was BS and I wouldn't stand for it in the future. When we spoke, by the way, he totally denied it. I asked him if he wanted to see the video (as I was rewinding it) and he said no and apologized (and admitted it). He "knew" he was guilty and I should have probably been more formal about it. "Knowing is different from "not seeing".

I don't take what you said as offensive because I didn't give you the whole story! My bad.

But the point is. If a person is confronted every weekend by a different individual driver then that person has been given a lot of "free passes". No?

R

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Rob
Yes, they have. Shame on the "rest of the group" for not addressing this situation. It is probably time for the "rest of the group" to have a discussion about this person and decide a course of action. Then invite the "problem child" to the discussion and alert him that many people are aware of the problem and are prepared to do something about it. Keep the discussion informal, and friendly but be very clear.

In all honesty it probably will not do any good. But, you will have given the guy fair warning. Then you (or somebody else in the group) needs to back up the words with action. Otherwise you wasted your time and his.


Also be aware that while the internet is a great boon to racing with the information that can be exchanged it is also a great way for lots of disinformation to find its way to the big wide world easily.

But everyday that I come to work I thank Al Gore for inventing the internet.

good luck
"dangerous" dave parker

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Dec 29 2005, 03:07 PM
It depends on how you look at it. I've been, as we all have, a fan of racing my whole life. More importantly I love the rags to riches underdog stories. (what can I say I'm a softy). If someone cheat and beat some kid or worse some guy who's been doing it for 20 years without a win that would really be a heartbreaker. I've seen competitors poo-poo other competitors wins because they have "labeled" them as a cheater.

I just wish as a new guy the process was more clearly defined for me. More importantly:

I wish other competitors defended the process on track as vehemently as they defend the rules debates (washerbottle thread comes to mind ) which take place on this forum.

It would make it so much easier as I have learned so much about the rules by paying attention to this BB. It seems to me that things get hashed out here extensively- but "washed away" on track by saying everyone knows he's cheating sooo....his win doesn't count [in my mind]. Double-standard??

R

PS Andy, I really look forward to reading your posts......very informative and well thought out. You're an asset to this sport.

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Haven't been called an asset yet, an ass...you bet! Thanks.

The washer bottle stuff is purely an internet debate. In application, I would NEVER protest someone on it's absense. It is however, a minute peek into the thought-process of a competitor - and how far they will go to be legal. I talked recently with a competitor, whom I respect, that thought that forged pistons of a lighter weight than stock were ok for his car because they were better, cheaper and 'wouldn't make that much difference'. He wasn't 'intending' to cheat and he didn't even know HOW MUCH lighter the forged units were...I hate that.

The only time you will hear me say that I know someone is cheating without doing something about it - is when that person is way behind me. I don't feel it's my position to police the entire grid - just the racers around me and in front of me that affect my final finishing position.

AB

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by dave parker@Dec 29 2005, 09:30 PM
Rob

Also be aware that while the internet is a great boon to racing with the information that can be exchanged it is also a great way for lots of disinformation to find its way to the big wide world easily.


good luck
"dangerous" dave parker

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Excellent point....and don't think for one second I didn't keep that in mind when writing. I'm not trying to stand up for anything other than fairness and integrity and I have no problem calling a competitor out on it. If a (call him) Mr Holmes has a problem with that then stop destroying race cars......it's really quite simple.

Thanks Dave
R

[lateapex911]

Sorry, I posted before reading the next thread...this belongs here, not there....


Rob...and others....protesting isn't easy, nor should it be. In some ways, I feel it is TOO difficult. There are many who have the desire, and the car knowledge, but lack the procedural knowledge to lodge a protest, and that's too bad.

Search this site for "A Protest Story" in the Rules and Regs section. You'll learn a thing or two on the process, what goes wrong, and right. It's basicaly a two part deal...a factual rundown, and then an opinionated commentary....which was actually very calm, I think. (I was pretty peeved)

We decided that we were SURE there was a cheater in the ranks, and we wanted to KNOW, one way or the other, what was up. So we lodged what we thought was a respectful, but complete top end protest. I think we did our job well, and in a professional manner. When we decided to do it, we decided that there would be a loser no matter what...and that if we were going to create a lot of bad blood, then we wanted as much good to come of it as possible. It was harder than we thought for the last part.

Part of our solution was to form a group. Five guys and a silent advisor. It made sense for a number of reasons. Cost sharing, and within the group, we had different guys with different expertises. I recommend the group approach, as long as each member has the resolve to see it through. We joked when we were asked by the stewards, if there were illegal items found early whether we would abandon the rest of the protest. "No, we will carry it all the way through....if you are going to kill the king, you MUST kill the king", LOL.
A group protest also shows the rest of the class that there is a large desire for the class to run clean.

Before the actual protest, 3 of us had had three seperate warning/conversations with the protestee, the last one resulting in a challenge: "Tear me down"...very well then..............

Most of us, myself included, would prefer that a pre protest chat be offered...if I am doing something wrong, I will be happy to fix it, just let me know. There could be a situation where my reading of the rule varies from yours, or the officials, and if thats the case then it becomes a voyage of discovery. If I am wrong, oh well, I'll fix it and apologise, if I'm right, no hard feelings.

On track stuff, to me, requires a chat, and a second occurance. Unless he is well known to commit the same fouls regularly.

I don't know if I gained or lost respect from my fellow competitors, but I decided that doing what was right, even though I personally had little to gain and lots to lose, was more important. Trust me, most around me told me I was nuts. The downsides were greater by far than the upsides, for me at least. (I'm a mid pack guy...my finishing position would go to 9th from 10th or to 5th from 6th..not a big deal, but I was told that I would be inviting disaster by actually protesting.) I'd do it again....but better. We allowed the officials as much rope as they needed, and it was nearly enough to hang the whole process. (A last minute step in from an un-named steward saved the whole deal)

I think you might be refering to a known guy who is questionable to many in the class locally. The reason HE hasn't been dragged into the tech shed is simple...he never builds a car that can finish a race without blowing it's guts all over the track. Once he does, things will change.

Mechanical protests can be easier than behavioral protests...much less gray area, so they are a bit easier to lodge.

I recommend a well placed and reasoned protest. There are plenty in your class and your area that will support and help you. Just ask.

[charrbq]

Originally posted by zracre@Dec 29 2005, 08:48 PM
There was an incident at the ARRC where someone on this site may have passed me in the sprint race under yellow...i didnt see the yellow or I guess he didnt either...the point is the stewart called him in and told him I was protesting him with the form in my hand...when he approached me and told me this I was flabergasted! I couldnt believe a steward would say something like that! I may not have been paying attention when the pass was made, but that meant I didnt see the yellow either...almost made an enemy out of someone I dont know very well but know he wouldnt intentionally do something like that. I let it go...I am not the type to protest...and I know I have been beaten from some real questionable cars...too much trouble for a hobby. If someone needs to cheat to win, and everyone knows they are cheating, did they really win?

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Evan, I know the incident you're referring to. That's what I meant about a pass under the yellow only with only one, or at least, an unsure witness. The method used by the steward was, at best, unorthodox. I would say conteptable, but then, I know that stewards are people, too.
The driver's meeting at the ARRC and the supps preached that "passing under the yellow will not be tolerated". But I witnessed several such passes on the front straight in plain view of the stewards and several workers with nothing done.
I suppose you respond sometimes as you chose in the manner you chose.

[JLawton]

If I knew someone was illegal (seriously illegal, not washer bottle) I'm not so sure i would have a discussion with them first. If they have the balls to to run illegally, they don't have my respect to discuss it first.

Also, people need to be carefull of accusing someone of being illegal JUST because they're fast...........That always sounds like sour grapes.

Example: Last year I ran with a person who was very fast. But I could HEAR that he didn't have a stock cam when ever I walked by his car when it was idling (I ran the same kind of car and know what a legal and illegal cam sounds like). At the time I was a mid packer so it didn't have an impact on me. However, if I was running in the same class in '06, I would be writing up a protest at the first race. I wouldn't discuss it with him first. And Rob, I wouldn't feel like a snitch for doing it!!

All that being said, make sure you of yourself before going forward......

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 30 2005, 02:15 AM

I think you might be refering to a known guy who is questionable to many in the class locally. The reason HE hasn't been dragged into the tech shed is simple...he never builds a car that can finish a race without blowing it's guts all over the track. Once he does, things will change.



There are plenty in your class and your area that will support and help you. Just ask.

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Yes, I've heard things like that before Jake...however if I remember correctly that competitor went to another track in our region and swept the whole weekend. There were a lot of upset folks I remember the BB discusssion. But nothing was done.

I know that we will support each other. And I have met some WONDERFUL folks doing this. I have made great friends in racing. In my experience we get together, talk about things, and come up with similar conclusions...but we don't necessarily act on them. If my group does this, and your group, and his group....then why don't WE get together as you illustrated can be done.

Is it that the process is obscure?
Is it the fear of being blackballed?
Is it the reality that even if the competitor is illegal and we are vindicated we will still be feel blackballed?

I would love to see us defend the process of legality in its entirety. In my instance, I've learned from this BB that a washerbottle is a must have for reasons far more important to someone else than me. Mine was lost in a wreck, but I will be replacing it this winter. WHY? Because it's not for me to assign priority to legality/illegality. What I think is miniscule may not be to the guy who can garner power from a missing washer bottle. The same as if a pass under yellow denies me my first top 10 finsh. It may seem trivial- but it denied me a milestone.

We should defend the rulebook vehemently here as well as at the track.

We must remember, rules (laws) are the MINIMUM allowable standard that a population imposes for itself...not the maximum.

Rob "racing philosopher and beer drinker" Breault

[Bill Miller]

Is it the reality that even if the competitor is illegal and we are vindicated we will still be feel blackballed?

I think this is probably a large part of it. But, a lot depends where you are in the 'food chain' at the track you race at. If you're one of the regulars, and are buddy-buddy w/ most of the folks you race against, and usually run near the front, it probably won't be so much of an issue. Most of these people don't bother w/ protesting mid-packers or back-markers, and they don't protest themselves (for whatever reason, they're all legal, they have a "gentleman's agreement", ???). And, if you have someone new come in, that is felt to be illegal, you will probably have several people in on writing the protest.

But, if you're one of the mid-packers, or a new guy, and protest one of the 'regulars', the climate is probably going to be significantly different. Hey, we've all heard stories about people's cars getting dorked w/ at night.

[gran racing]

Good points Bill.

[/QUOTE]Also, people need to be careful of accusing someone of being illegal JUST because they're fast...........That always sounds like sour grapes.

Very true statement. It is the “Just” that is difficult to define. I really wish more was done to police cars and their legality.

At the time I was a mid packer so it didn't have an impact on me.[quote]

I hear ya Jeff, but my excuse was that I’m gonna beat that guy so why should I bother? (I had a little more motivation then normal because of this legality thought.) When I was in ITA, I had the same feeling as you mentioned. But in reality, cheaters do impact everyone in the class one way or another. The protest process is a bit intimidating especially for newer drivers but also for experienced drivers.

I don’t have an issue getting beat by someone who is a better driver, but it really pisses me off getting beat just because they are cheating. On the other hand, it is fun beating someone who is cheating. “What, you cheat and still can’t beat me? Wow, you must really suck!”

The other aspect of cheating is wheither the person is doing it on purpose or not (and not just a lack of effort of knowing the rules).

It would be great if a well written protest document were put together then distributed in one way or another. I can just hear it now. Someone is gonna say it’s all spelled out in the GCR. Hey, if a bunch of guys who really know the rules, one of them owns a garage / race shop, have the respect of other drivers / workers have troubles with the protest process how in the world would most people be able to? It would be great to see some tips on how it should be organized, what it should include (in general), how much the protest will typically cost. I have no clue what it would cost for a bond to tear down specific items. I would be interested in seeing a price range for these items.

We’ve discussed potential deterants and punishments before, but I still think a “wall of shame” idea might help a bit. For items (again, not a missing horn or washer bottle) that were protested and found illegal, print the person’s member number, car number, name and item that was found to be illegal somewhere.

So Rob, does this mean you’re going to be busy writing and assembling a protest?

[gran racing]

Rob, sounds like I too need to learn how to write a protest. I brought a protest document home with me last year if you want a copy.

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 29 2005, 02:13 PM
Maybe a "Protest Seminar" at Regional Annual Mettings?

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A clever idea, something with which I would be delighted to assist you...

Jake, I think you can rest assured that you and your group improved your reputation among the racers, at least the ones that count. You guys did it right and well.

I've got my own "protest" story, one that may guide your thought processes.

Back in 1986 (?) I prepped a Rabbit GTi for ITA. It was my street car, and I had a bank loan on it, and being that I was in school and living on my own at the time it was an INCREDIBLE financial stretch to own a car with a note, let alone be at a track racing. Well, I promptly rolled that car in my third driver's school.

So, I was in a bit of a pickle: no street car (but more importantly, no race car) and very little money. Into my life popped a nearly-free 1981 Scirocco S with a blown drivetrain, destroyed interior, and wasted suspension. I did what probably anyone else would do, and that was to strip the Scirocco and install all the perfectly-good GTi parts, including 1.8L engine, close-ratio 'box, 14" wheels, etc. I wanted to get back on the track so I unbolted the Autpower cage from the Rabbit, shortened it a tad, and installed it in the 'Roc, then I entered the car as an ITB entry. There was no doubt in my mind this was illegal to the rules, but that was not foremost in my mind; my desire to drive on the track far exceeded any desire to meet the rules. (Remember that back then there were no such things as open-track days or HPDEs and no catch-all classes like SPU or ITE. It was SCCA or nothing).

One weekend towards the end of that year I attended my first race with the car at Hallet Motor Speedway. Some time that afternoon I was fixing something underneath the car when I noticed two pair of feet (presumably) attached to two pair of eyeballs looking into my open engine compartment. I slid out and a couple of guys introduced themselves as fellow ITB competitors. They told me that they knew from the 14" wheels that I was driving an illegal car; quick inspection of the engine revealed it was more than just a tire thing. They were nice about it, but they carefully explained that they were competing against each other for year-end points, and given that I had gotten pole I had placed them in an awkward situation; if I did not agree to allow them to pass cleanly and race they would protest me and have me disqualified.

Yeah, I knew I was illegal to the rules, but 'that's not what was important here'! From my perspective it was in incredible goal simply to make it on the track, let alone get the pole and possibly my first win; shouldn't they be happy for me? Instead of getting the congratulations I was expecting, I was shocked at their slamming me! I don't recall my response, but I know I probably didn't react particularly well, probably arguing my point, but I do remember their closing the discussion with something like "it's your choice."

In the end, I think things worked out for the best: I led 1/2 the race or so, well clear of them ('just to prove a point&#39, then in one of the harder braking areas I moved over, braked hard, and pointed them by. I stayed somewhat-close to them but not involved, and got to finish the race in third (I don't recall if there were any competitors behind me). The only other memory I have of that event is seeing the crestfallen face of my close friend in pit lane as I came around the last turn in third place; he was as disappointed as I was!

So what's my point about all this? My point is that this situation was handled by the guys taking the time - and risk - of talking to me directly first. Yep, I thought they were a-holes at the time and I fumed about it all the way home (especially when I realized afterwards that the rules required filing a protest in advance of the race and there was nothing they could have done about it) but towards the end of that loooong drive home I recognized that they were right and I was wrong, that even though from my perspective and motivation this was 'I was right', from the viewpoint of my competitors it was wrong. In the end I bought replacement 13" wheels and built up a legal 1.6L engine and the proper trans, put all my hopped-up GTi parts into a ratty (read: cheap) Cabriolet as a daily-driver, and raced the 'Roc for a year or so more.

Even more important, Kyle, I learned something else that day. I learned the value of the preparation rules and how it affects not only my ability to compete but the value if/when I did win. Had those guys not intervened, or had I blown them off, I probably would have won, but today it would have meant nothing to me.

So, my moral to this story is that you can't know someone else's mindset or motivations for what they do; while they seem spiteful their actions may very well be based in ignorance or some other reasonable issues/aspirations. Based on my experience I strongly believe in the "first step" of confronting the suspicions directly. However, if you're gonna do that you better be prepared to follow up; if I had blown off those guys and they didn't follow up I would have had no respect for them in the future...

So, if you're worried about dealing with confrontations and/or protests, ask yourself one key question: do you want to stay pissed off just to keep from pissing off someone else? Hey, "it's your choice." - GA

[Doc Bro]

Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 30 2005, 03:18 PM
So Rob, does this mean you’re going to be busy writing and assembling a protest?

[snapback]69566[/snapback]

No Dave, actually quite the contrary. My first goal is to personally run as to the letter legal a program as possible. Then worry about my competitors. That way I can never have it turned back on me- the whole glass house thing. One huge caveat though is I won't tolerate the DANGEROUS on track stuff next year that I accepted this year. Passing 3 corners showing yellow at speed is dangerous and if someone was injured in the future by these antics I would be very upset at my inaction in the past.


As an aside I remember my first impound after a race (and how thankful I was to have made it there!!). I remember looking my car over as if I was a 16 year old with his first date in the car. I remeber thinking anything can take place here. I was nervous of the "process" of being in impound. I thought is my car legal, will it pass scrutiny?

The next probably 6 weekends I went to they only impounded the top three. My thoughts shifted to "impound doesn't really mean much". I learned very quickly what was going on in impound- nothing- just a bunch of high fiving and butt slapping. Why isn't the goal of impound to promote the "it could happen to me" fear in a cheating competitor. Why aren't the top three or five rolled over the scales? Just give the illusion that impound is a formal process that can have negative outcome to a cheater. At every Sat. nite special cirle track I have ever been to they roll the top 3 over the scales.

R