New air intake rule

[murphyd]

Has anyone given any thought to the new rule regarding the air intake and how you may address this on an IT 240sx? We built a custom air box to insulate the filter from the hot air of the engine compartment and would like to continue using it. From just the looks of some of the "cold air" systems out there one would think that there would be some benefit from the smooth flow of those intakes as opposed to the "boxy" stock unit. Weapon R has a neat "looking" system but I really wonder how these units perform. Any ideas, suggestions, experiences, etc...???

[its66]

David,
Since I don't have the 240 anymore, I'll have to let you and the others test these ideas.

That intake tube always appeared to be restrictive to me. I think that another possible problem with it was heat. On my car, it basically laid against the radiator. This new wording should allow moving the tubing off the radiator and insulating it from the heat. I doubt either of these will make a huge increase though.

Jim

[Joe Harlan]

David, I will ad one more thing. Think about silicon aero ducting from the MAF to the TB....

[stevel]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 5 2005, 06:52 PM
David, I will ad one more thing. Think about silicon aero ducting from the MAF to the TB....

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Silicon aero ducting? You got me here joe, I dunno what that is or where to get it. Joe, any problems with mounting the MAF right by the throttle body. I was thinking of doing this just to simplify things. Though, I don't have the race car right here near me and have not looked at it since thinking of doing this.

Joe, when you get a chance, email me. steveluszcz [at] hotmail dot com

steve

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by stevel@Dec 5 2005, 01:02 PM
Silicon aero ducting? You got me here joe, I dunno what that is or where to get it. Joe, any problems with mounting the MAF right by the throttle body. I was thinking of doing this just to simplify things. Though, I don't have the race car right here near me and have not looked at it since thinking of doing this.

Joe, when you get a chance, email me. steveluszcz [at] hotmail dot com

steve

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Yes the rule doesn't allow the harness that much room. Second is that the reversion in the tube will cause issues with the MAF being that close. If I remember when we were messing with this we found 12 inches was then minimum without issues. As far as the Aero duct goes it is the Orange colored Duct you use for brakes. Vry nice for aor intake as opposed to the aluminum tube.

[murphyd]

Do you think there would be any advantages or disadvantages to the units that are already on the market? I know some of these are cheap, but the nice mandrel bends and smooth internals would seem to be less restrictive than the stock piece or even the aero tubing (or is it smooth inside also).

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by murphyd@Dec 5 2005, 01:56 PM
Do you think there would be any advantages or disadvantages to the units that are already on the market? I know some of these are cheap, but the nice mandrel bends and smooth internals would seem to be less restrictive than the stock piece or even the aero tubing (or is it smooth inside also).

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The silicon Aero tube is smooth inside about 9 bucjs a foot and is flexible to move around things. I found that on my application(not IT) It worked better than any of the aluminum ones and did not get anywhere near as hot as the metal ones. If I were not gonna use the aero duct I would be building one out of stainless and having it barrier coated to control internal heat. I also machined an adapter that reduced the tube from 3.0 to 2.75 OD on the throttle body. very nice High swirl piece.

[murphyd]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Dec 5 2005, 09:19 PM
The silicon Aero tube is smooth inside about 9 bucjs a foot and is flexible to move around things. I found that on my application(not IT) It worked better than any of the aluminum ones and did not get anywhere near as hot as the metal ones. If I were not gonna use the aero duct I would be building one out of stainless and having it barrier coated to control internal heat. I also machined an adapter that reduced the tube from 3.0 to 2.75 OD on the throttle body. very nice High swirl piece.

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So can I assume the reason for this machined piece is that the aero tubing comes only in 2.5 or 3.0 OD? Or was there another reason? Do you have these available for fellow 240sx guys? What would be your personal opinion of using this type of tubing with the air filter located in the stock location and it (the filter) being sealed off in an "insulated" box? Would you use some type of insulating material on the aero hose or is that overkill? Any pics of your system for reference? Thanks!

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by murphyd@Dec 6 2005, 06:37 AM
So can I assume the reason for this machined piece is that the aero tubing comes only in 2.5 or 3.0 OD? Or was there another reason? Do you have these available for fellow 240sx guys? What would be your personal opinion of using this type of tubing with the air filter located in the stock location and it (the filter) being sealed off in an "insulated" box? Would you use some type of insulating material on the aero hose or is that overkill? Any pics of your system for reference? Thanks!

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I will try to get a photo up for you in the next day. I have this system attached to the factory airbox at this point because I have cold air fed to it. I would have to think about how much to make the adapters but it could be done.

[DavidM]

I haven't read the new regs concerning the intake in detail, but I get the impression that the intake is pretty much free now except the stock wiring harness and MAF have to be maintained. Is that correct? What are people's thoughts about the stock location for air pickup? Seems like the wheel well would have a good cold air supply, but the air would be fairly turbulent. Getting air from the engine compartment would be less turbulent, but hotter. So is there a better spot than the stock location or is not worth the hassle of moving stuff around?

David

[its66]

I always thought that these would make a really interesting "intake tube". :P

http://performanceunlimited.com/cobravalle...in/ductfan.html



I know, I know. I can never wear my rules nerd hat again...

[Greg Amy]

David, don't forget you still have to work within the confine of 17.1.4.D.1.a.4:

"Air intake source shall be within the confines of the engine compartment or stock location."

[RSTPerformance]

What are your opinions...

1. The GCR says that you can not modify the MAF (Must remain operational and unmodified)... does that mean that it also must stay in its original location???

2. On an Audi the distance between the MAF and the throttle body is not very long. The rules now say that this "tube" can be modified or removed. If I were to modify this "tube" and relocate the MAF to the oposite side of the engine away from the headers, I could source much cooler air.

2a. Do you think that this would give me any gains.

2b. Do you think that a hugely longer "tube" from the MAF to the throttle body will have a negative impact?



For reference to my brain storming: Check out this picture of an Audi engine compartment. On the front left is the MAF (see fuel lines going to the head, and "tube" going to throttle body?). On the Right front is a shield chanaling air to the radiator. Under that shield is a lot of empty space. One could relocate the MAF infront of the radiator. A new airbox/mount and I could get as much cold air from the grill area as the MAF could take. 1 drawback, the distance from thier to the throttle body (back left) is a huge distance...

http://www.igdc.com/ejfluhr/audi/pics/85engine.jpg

Raymond "so is it legal, and/or is it worth it?" Blethen

[DavidM]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Dec 6 2005, 02:13 PM
David, don't forget you still have to work within the confine of 17.1.4.D.1.a.4:

"Air intake source shall be within the confines of the engine compartment or stock location."

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Agreed. But, for example, I could ditch the stock air box and get one of the cone filter setups where the filter basically sits where the stock air box is located. That would have the air intake source in the engine compartment. Seems like you could go a step further and locate the cone filter behind the radiator so that it gets better air flow. The big disadvantage I see is that, due to having to keep the stock wiring harness, you're limited to keeping things on the exhaust side of the engine (unless you did a U turn back to the other side of the engine, but that would seem to be bad for air flow). So the air would be hot. I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle to switch things up if there's no net gain.

I haven't looked at things in the car yet. Just tossing ideas about.

David

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by DavidM@Dec 7 2005, 10:51 AM
Agreed. But, for example, I could ditch the stock air box and get one of the cone filter setups where the filter basically sits where the stock air box is located. That would have the air intake source in the engine compartment. Seems like you could go a step further and locate the cone filter behind the radiator so that it gets better air flow. The big disadvantage I see is that, due to having to keep the stock wiring harness, you're limited to keeping things on the exhaust side of the engine (unless you did a U turn back to the other side of the engine, but that would seem to be bad for air flow). So the air would be hot. I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle to switch things up if there's no net gain.

I haven't looked at things in the car yet. Just tossing ideas about.

David

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David I think the factory location is the best unless you can in front of the rad (not it legal) I got kins busy and my car is in the trailer but iwill try to post a pic.

Adaptor:[attachmentid=212]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by DavidM@Dec 7 2005, 11:51 AM
Agreed. But, for example, I could ditch the stock air box and get one of the cone filter setups where the filter basically sits where the stock air box is located. That would have the air intake source in the engine compartment. Seems like you could go a step further and locate the cone filter behind the radiator so that it gets better air flow. The big disadvantage I see is that, due to having to keep the stock wiring harness, you're limited to keeping things on the exhaust side of the engine (unless you did a U turn back to the other side of the engine, but that would seem to be bad for air flow). So the air would be hot. I'm wondering if it's worth the hassle to switch things up if there's no net gain.

I haven't looked at things in the car yet. Just tossing ideas about.

David

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It's never worth changing if there is no net gain...right?

Putting your air intake behind the radiator is a bad idea IMHO as well. Cool air gets warmed significantly by the coolant...finding a nice high-pressure area away from heat sources is the key.

AB

[handfulz28]

Just a thought regarding the "stock" location:
At least for the 12v, SOHC, ITA, whatever you call us, the full factory setup sources the air outside the engine compartment. Before it gets to the airbox, it's fed through a hole in the sheet metal below and a bit forward of where the OEM box/filter mounts.
I've been running without the plastic tube that connects the airbox to that opening, but I've been meaning to get it put in there and dyno before/after.
Given the MAF and maybe the post-MAF plastic tubing is considered the biggest restrictors, is it really worth doing much more than just silicone tubing and Joe's pretty adapter?
Yeah Joe, consider making a few of those for us will ya'?

Michael

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by handfulz28@Dec 8 2005, 09:01 AM
Just a thought regarding the "stock" location:
At least for the 12v, SOHC, ITA, whatever you call us, the full factory setup sources the air outside the engine compartment. Before it gets to the airbox, it's fed through a hole in the sheet metal below and a bit forward of where the OEM box/filter mounts.
I've been running without the plastic tube that connects the airbox to that opening, but I've been meaning to get it put in there and dyno before/after.
Given the MAF and maybe the post-MAF plastic tubing is considered the biggest restrictors, is it really worth doing much more than just silicone tubing and Joe's pretty adapter?
Yeah Joe, consider making a few of those for us will ya'?

Michael

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Guys I want to be careful not to break any commercial rules here. If you think you would like an adaptor like the one above E-mail if there are enough I will do a short run on the CNC to cut costs.

[pfcs49]

not to be cynical, Darren, but how come the 240zx guys are lining up for this modification that has no benefit for these cars (at least that was your stand)

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by pfcs49@Dec 8 2005, 11:20 AM
not to be cynical, Darren, but how come the 240zx guys are lining up for this modification that has no benefit for these cars (at least that was your stand)

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I am not sure who you are talking to. Normally I don't respond to people without names but. The benefit is a clean installation that is less subject to heat. The choking point on any KA is the size of the MAF. I can supply photos of those if you need them.