Gains from ECU Mods

[mowog]

Not all ECUs can be reprogrammed. Try finding anyone who can custom program the ECU in a Contour. It may be similar to a ZX2, but it isn't the same, and the motor won't even start if you try to use a ZX2 ECU on it. I'm sure there are other examples out there.

Can you readjust a carburettor for better tuning? YES. Without allowing ECU mods, can you tune a car without a carb? NO. Is that fair?

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by MMiskoe@Nov 23 2005, 03:13 PM
What gains can be had w/ a completely built from scratch system (IE Motec) that are not availble by reprogramming/chipping the stock ECU?

What I am curious about is what is available through a completely custom designed system that is not available by re-working the existing system? IE for the guys that do go out and get the custom made system worth 10 years of entry fees, what do they gain that they couldn't get by simply reprogramming what they already had?

And here we go again (no offense Matt).

Advantages of stand-alones are as follows:

More data points for finer resolution of curves and better management
Much faster processing
Typically has ability to data-log on-board
Easier to manipulate on-site for most platforms (reprogramming)
Availability to all platforms (unless there are space constraints)
Built to work in open loop
Lower overall cost if ECU platform has not yet been disassembled (code-wise)

Disadvantages:
Must be completely refit within new housing to meet rules
Must figure out starting point from scratch
More $$ initially
Easier to screw up if not done right (read: make engine blow up now)

Would you like some specifics?

Tip- Someone above mentioned about flatter curve. MUCH easier to achieve with aftermarket. Don't look at peak numbers, as they tell VERY little of the story.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by mowog@Nov 23 2005, 01:45 PM
Not all ECUs can be reprogrammed. Try finding anyone who can custom program the ECU in a Contour. It may be similar to a ZX2, but it isn't the same, and the motor won't even start if you try to use a ZX2 ECU on it. I'm sure there are other examples out there.

Can you readjust a carburettor for better tuning? YES. Without allowing ECU mods, can you tune a car without a carb? NO. Is that fair?

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Chris, I bet I can find a crack for that box. It just kills me everytime somebody says it can't be done. It's an ECU code was written on the chips some how.

Contour 2.0L 1995-2000 PZL0 +13HP +16ft/lb
Contour 2.5L 170 HP 1995-2000 XXY4 +17HP +20ft/lb
Contour 2.5L SVT 200 HP 1998-20001 NUN1 +20HP +20ft/lb

Which car we working with. This is a company that makes a flashable chip for those cars. numbers look pretty good for a generic chipset.

[mowog]

Joe, please try. Many have tried, including a Ford engineer and a Visteon engineer. No one has been successful finding the existing map, and none have been able to locate the tools necessary to reflash the EEPROM. The specific ECU is HCA5.

Oh yeah, on a chassis dyno the gain from the ECU replacement was 5 horsepower. This was after several hours and assistance from a professional tuner.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by mowog@Nov 23 2005, 06:56 PM
Joe, please try. Many have tried, including a Ford engineer and a Visteon engineer. No one has been successful finding the existing map, and none have been able to locate the tools necessary to reflash the EEPROM. The specific ECU is HCA5.

Oh yeah, on a chassis dyno the gain from the ECU replacement was 5 horsepower. This was after several hours and assistance from a professional tuner.

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What year are we working with? I would be happy to talk to my guy. Need some data.

As far as engineers go, your trying to work with grownups.....that's the problem..lol

[mowog]

Yeah, that could be the problem .

The motor is 98/99 Contour/Mystique 2.0L. The number of ECUs available is somewhat long, this is the only one that can be used for our application.

We also checked on piggyback modules just for fun (wouldn't fit inside the box so wouldn't be legal - remember we have to run IT rules), and no one had anything for this ECU. In other words, after about 5 years of looking into this, everyone struck out. So good luck!

[spnkzss]

Originally posted by mowog@Nov 23 2005, 03:45 PM
Not all ECUs can be reprogrammed. Try finding anyone who can custom program the ECU in a Contour. It may be similar to a ZX2, but it isn't the same, and the motor won't even start if you try to use a ZX2 ECU on it. I'm sure there are other examples out there.

Can you readjust a carburettor for better tuning? YES. Without allowing ECU mods, can you tune a car without a carb? NO. Is that fair?

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Same for a 1990 Honda Civic DPFI. I can't even bump the rev limiter.

[stevel]

Originally posted by MMiskoe@Nov 23 2005, 07:13 PM
What gains can be had w/ a completely built from scratch system (IE Motec) that are not availble by reprogramming/chipping the stock ECU?

What I am curious about is what is available through a completely custom designed system that is not available by re-working the existing system? IE for the guys that do go out and get the custom made system worth 10 years of entry fees, what do they gain that they couldn't get by simply reprogramming what they already had?

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In my experience (which isn't as much as say Joe Harlan, but a good amount) the short answer is not much. Granted I'm speaking in broad terms here but the gains from tuning a chipped ECU as opposed to a MOTEC on a typical IT car are going to be minimal. I would be surprised if the graphs looked that much different. Another thing on here that people key in on too much is peak numbers, area under the curve is way more important I think. Peak numbers can be deceiving, you may only gain 3 peak hp but may gain like 15whp in the middle of the rev range.

I tend to find that what you need to do is richen up the low end of the rev range and lean out the top end. I guess they richen up the top end so it doesn't pull so hard and you're not tempted to pull it to redline all the time, that and the safety factor of having it rich incase there's a problem. Seems to be pretty typical in the cars I've tuned.

To me the advantage of the bells and whistles systems is it makes it that much easier to tune. And what I mean by that is the data you're getting back. Most of my experience is in tuning hondas and a lot is available, some even rival a good standalone. And the datalogging and feedback I get from the ecu makes tuning that much easier because I know whats going on. I can see all the engine parameters, exactly which datapoint the ecu is using at that moment, and the ability to record that and go back later. Not to mention some have an autotune feature. You plug in the A/F you want for the particular cells and just continue to do runs and the software tweaks it til you get there. I usually don't use that as I can usually get there quicker, but the feature is nice.

Now that I'm working on Nissans here the tools utilizing the stock ECU are very sparse. I'm just getting into and have finally got myself a CONSULT box (for datalogging) and will see how that helps me. But the editors just have the bare minimum and it makes tuning difficult and take longer. Now, if I had one of the AEM systems, I could have gotten a lot more out of it and done it much quicker. So, the extra cost of the bells and whistles can sometimes save you time in the end. I'm going to struggle with the free editors out there for my S13, but i'm not too psyched about it.

P.S. Joe Harlan, could you email me at steveluszcz [at] hotmail dot com when you get a chance. Thanks. I have some questions for you regarding Nissans.

steve

[Joe Harlan]

http://www.spmotorsports.com/contour_elec_chips.html

Chris, These guys are listing a superchips chip for that car. Is this bad information? Chrus I am not being a smart a** I really believe these things can all be cracked.

Stevel I will hook up with you nect week. I think you are close on the stand alone but there is way more than people think. Average HP wins races Peak HP wins dyno shows.

[chuck baader]

On several of the other boards, BMW ones I look at, quite a few people are going to Megasquirt, espically those who turbo motors. I know the unit will work with my sensors and fit in the constraints of the stock ECU box, so I wonder why the IT community has not been working with this cheap alternative to MOTEC? The latest version of MS will have the ability to tune each cylinder for timing and mixture in (I think) 100rpm incriments. Chuck

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 24 2005, 02:23 AM
http://www.spmotorsports.com/contour_elec_chips.html

Chris, These guys are listing a superchips chip for that car. Is this bad information? Chrus I am not being a smart a** I really believe these things can all be cracked.

Stevel I will hook up with you nect week. I think you are close on the stand alone but there is way more than people think. Average HP wins races Peak HP wins dyno shows.

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Joe,

Help Steve out - but not too much! I have to race against these freaking things!!!

Happy Thanksgiving!

AB

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 24 2005, 08:01 AM
Joe,

Help Steve out - but not too much! I have to race against these freaking things!!!

Happy Thanksgiving!

AB

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Haha...Andy I just can't be held responsible for your taste in cars.

[mowog]

Joe, talked to them long ago, they don't have anything that will work with our ECU.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by mowog@Nov 24 2005, 09:34 AM
Joe, talked to them long ago, they don't have anything that will work with our ECU.

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Can you give me a specific application for the ECU you are using and maybe a part number. I'll see if I can get my hands on one to take apart.

[mowog]

It's the ECU from the 1998 Contour/Mystique 2.0L gas motor (vin 3), number 98-BB 12A650-AXF, code HCA5 (note the code is the critical information that needs to be matched, not the part number).

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by spnkzss@Nov 23 2005, 07:43 PM
Same for a 1990 Honda Civic DPFI. I can't even bump the rev limiter.

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http://www.autoserve.8m.com/StepByStep_OBD...tion_OBD_0.html

Try here first. Let me know what is special about your application. I cant think if a Honda out there beside the S2000 that doesn't have ECU support. In this case it looks like replacing a chip on the main board. We have to replace chips and sockets on the 240sx but it can be done.


Chris, Is this an english based ECU? And thanks I will see if I can get one of these to take apart.

[MMiskoe]

Thanks folks. I started this as a self serving fishing expedition and everyone's been quite helpful. I read and participated in the online survey about ECU rules, then realized that I wasn't sure I had made a well edjucated (sp?) vote. Not knowing what the differences were between modifying an OEM system vrs starting from scratch.

Now I think I know. I appreciate the input.

IMHO leave things be for a few years & the aftermarket will catch up and it will be cheaper to go w/ a completely open rule. Especially as cars get more complicated and include more non-racing features (Kirk's security problems come to mind).

[mowog]

Chris, Is this an english based ECU? And thanks I will see if I can get one of these to take apart.

No, this is a stock American 1998 Ford Contour 2.0L gas (vin 3) ECU. Readily available in junk yards throughout the US. I sent you a PM, as I'm sure others aren't the slightest bit interested. The point remains, no every car's ECU can be reprogrammed, and some (most?) don't have the room for a piggyback module inside the stock case, assuming something is even available for their application.

So again I ask the general IT public, would it be fair to rescind the ECU rule when those with carbs and adjustable timing can make changes that boost performance?

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by mowog@Nov 24 2005, 12:37 PM
Chris, Is this an english based ECU? And thanks I will see if I can get one of these to take apart.

No, this is a stock American 1998 Ford Contour 2.0L gas (vin 3) ECU. Readily available in junk yards throughout the US. I sent you a PM, as I'm sure others aren't the slightest bit interested. The point remains, no every car's ECU can be reprogrammed, and some (most?) don't have the room for a piggyback module inside the stock case, assuming something is even available for their application.

So again I ask the general IT public, would it be fair to rescind the ECU rule when those with carbs and adjustable timing can make changes that boost performance?

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So again I say as long as that is condsidered in the classification of the car then yes. If it turnsout later that it can be modified then that should be taken into consideration.

What funny to me is when I was a low life automotive tech(kidding about lowlife) Ford had a lot of ECU's with UV erasable chips and they were removable from the factory board. I find it hard to believe that this type of mod could not be done to this ECU. I am gonna dig into this after the holiday.

[stevel]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 24 2005, 05:57 PM
http://www.autoserve.8m.com/StepByStep_OBD...tion_OBD_0.html

Try here first. Let me know what is special about your application. I cant think if a Honda out there beside the S2000 that doesn't have ECU support. In this case it looks like replacing a chip on the main board.

Joe,
You are pretty much right on. There is almost no stone left unturned for Honda ECU's in the last 15+ years. Though I don't know as much about the 88-91 cars as I do the later ones, I believe since he has a dpfi car he might have some unique problems. Most of the popular IT cars that can be easily chipped (the CRX Si and the Civic Si) from the same years had mpfi.

Spanky, I'd be happy to help you out here. What model civic, engine code and ecu do you have? I would be surprised if I couldn't find something.

steve