Here's a bombshell for you...

[chuck baader]

Mat, please reread my response.... "difficulty in scheduling the race because of conflicts with the mileage and time rules of the division: concessions had to be made and rules had to be modified." What that means is that a new region wanting to become a racing region would have a problem scheduling a date. That is the only problem being addressed to my knowledge. Step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath, please. Chuck

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 11:50 AM
As I look at it it only means that Florida racers MUST go to Roebling (double) at least once or Atlanta AND Roebling at least once. If I don't want to go to Roebling I've got to go to Kershaw or VIR! Might as well visit the folks and go to Lime Rock or Summitt Point!

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So, you don't like that a driver would have to set foot outside of Florida in order to the win the South Atlantic Road Racing Championship? Talk about living in your own little world.

As I see the proposal, no one is preventing a region from putting on as many regionals as they want, only that only two per track or region will count towards SARRC points. So what's the big deal, if you want to stay in Florida then please do it. In fact start your own Florida only message board and keep this kind of crap there. But don't expect to be called a SARRC champion if you can't race on at least a majority of the tracks in the South Atlantic.

Lookind at the SEDIV schedule and listening to other people from that division including officials, workers and racers it's obvious there are already to many events in the series. The fact that the division is working on a plan to address the problem is comendable, not something that should be shouted at. Talk to your RE and make some suggestions and yes get the word out to make sure people are informed. But as usual your tactics need a LOT of work.

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 04:50 PM
Which confirms what I've heard as well and that this new structure will be put to a vote at Jekyll Island with little if any member input. How are new regions going to put on races with the proposal to have only the "elite eight" continue putting on races? Given that policy, who is this going to benefit? As I look at it it only means that Florida racers MUST go to Roebling (double) at least once or Atlanta AND Roebling at least once. If I don't want to go to Roebling I've got to go to Kershaw or VIR! Might as well visit the folks and go to Lime Rock or Summitt Point!

What I really have a problem with is Roebling getting a free pass with SEDIV hosting those races beyond the proposed maximum. Why is Roebling the center of the universe? It's such a lousy track. It's just not right. Maybe Florida should just become a Division.

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Wow. Somone told me to come and read this thread. Lots of misinformation here. Mr. "Mattberg". Who is your source? If you will not name that person then what credibility does this source have? None in my opinion and someone wanting to be "secret" about their identity at a meeting that was not secret seems well, someone with a "secret" agenda but then maybe not. I can tell your "source" doesn't have it right Why? Because I was at the mid-year meeting and I have been involved in these discussions. Your source fears reprisal? Please. I guess the SEDIV goon squad is going to come and break his kneecaps? I can only surmise that you have never been to a SEDIV meeting because there are many vocal and divergent opinions in SEDIV and we try to discuss these things and work them out in meetings and informally between meetings. Believe it or not we actually try and do the right thing as best we can. It is not a we the powerbrokers versus the "little guy" racer. I have no RE crown, scepter or even a pinky ring for my members to kiss. Please.

There is a problem being discussed at the divisonal level. People have been throwing in ideas for general discussion. There was no "secret meeting". The July meeting is the same semi-annual meeting that was the one announced on the SEDIV website what, a year in advance because it happens well, every year! No doors were locked. No secret location, no secret handshake. No one wore hoods or robes.

Go look at the SEDIV calendar, there are about 110 days of competitive events and that is counting just a handful of Time Trial events. We have over a 100 days of wheel to wheel racing. We have had more tracks come online in the last ten years and more regions want to go racing. I know more regions that are considering it so there goes your "Elite Eight" argument. The point is some regions who have never put on a club race want to consider doing it. In fact the Alabama region may potentially co-sanction one with a rookie region just to help them get their feet wet in club racing.

In case you have not noticed our worker base has not increased in proportion to the number of events that are being put on. The resources of available stewards is being strained too. There are certain SARRC rules about putting a race on the calendar that benefits those regions that have raced for decades which really was no problem when there were a lot fewer tracks. In light of the crowded calendar we have now it is almost impossible for a newer racing region to get any race on the calendar. So is it just "tough luck" to the newer racing regions or not. Is there some attempt at equity or opportunity or not. Is there some way to relieve the stress on our resources with our racing calendar and allow some of the newer racing regions to have a race or two. Not only did the Atlanta region get its race cancelled due to not enough workers it happened just recently again for a race to be held at CMP.

I am not the only one who has expressed concern over SEDIV's worker resources. SEDIV's current executive steward commented at the July meeting that the day is coming (already here) when some race are not going to go green in the future because of our busy calendar and limited number of stewards and workers. The SARRC administrator even commented last January when the topic first came up (I am the one that brought it up originally and well that is no secret.). The SARRC administrator even suggested based on SARRC entrant counts at certain events (marginal entries) that some regions might consider not putting on those events to allow other regions to put on races. Old Dominion is a region that would like to become a racing region when Dragonsridge opens up. I am all for it. But they will not have much luck if they can't get a decent date to run a SARRC race which is pretty much impossible based on our now SARRC rules and the number of SARRC races scheduled. I am all for it. Chattanooga Region has expressed an interest in club racing. They are the region I am talking about maybe helping in co-sanctioning. Again they have next to no chance to get on the SARRC calendar. So your statement that they was EVER any mention or dicsussion about locking out any region of SEDIV from ever holding a club race is a complete fabrication.

You want facts. Here are some. Buccaneer region is the one that floated as an "idea" not cast in stone, just something to get the discussion rolling on each region getting certain number and type of events. It was a suggestion for discussion. Other regions made different suggestions. The Buccaneer one just happened to be more specific. I don't even think it was discussed over ten minutes if even that. No motion was made by anyone to even consider it for a vote nor was it even remotely hinted that it was to be considered as something to vote on then. That idea that was floated is not even any kind of official consensus and in fact is not a consensus. While I really appreciate the efforts of those good folks in the Buccaneer region trying to brainstorm and come up with a plan, I can't say that I agree with all of it. I have tried to come up with a plan to consider but have not yet.

I know the Alabama region would like to maybe add another race to its calendar but it is about impossible to get any kind of date that has a decent chance to be successful or to even get on the calendar. Right now we don't want eight or ten races like some other regions nor do we have the resources to manage such logistics. SARRC is the success formula in this SEDIV. People want to race SARRC. So for a newer region we need to put on SARRC races. Newer regions with smaller bank accounts can't afford to have low entry financial failures like the older regions whose bank acounts could withstand a failure or two. At least "north of the border" we need some decent dates (for Alabama January and February are not decent dates- lots of rain, cold, maybe snow, and it is the"off season"). SARRC has rules that limits when and the number of races a region puts on. Go read them if you have not then you try and plug in one more SARRC date on the calendar in 2006 without running into a rule that says you can not. Good luck.

If we just held a regional, well it would probably be a loser. At present my region puts on one race. One. We would like to be able to consider to put on two. Is that asking too much? But to do that some regions may need to consider what events are marginal for them and maybe, and we are talking maybe, consider not putting on that race.

The SEDIV racing "pie" is pretty much a fixed pie. So all the regions are pretty much competing for the same fixed dollar "pie" each racing season. More racetracks and more races do not equate to more entrants in the division or more entrants deciding to do more races. At least the folks I know that race have a budget and decide to do x amount of races per year. So if another region in SEDIV puts on an additional race all it is doing is taking away from someone else's race whether it be on the same weekend or not. To come to x region's race one might decide not to attend region b's race. To add to that now the stewards have another venue to cover and the corner workers have another event to man.

The reality is this is a growing problem for this division. At least some if not many think so. The question is what are we as a division going to do about it. I don't know the answer to that yet. But I do know we need dialogue now amongst the regions especially between the "older" racing regions whose number of races occupy a big chunk of the calendar and the newer or smaller regions who would like at leat some equitable opportunity to maybe get a race on the calendar. The SARRC rules are not "free enterpise" or "free competition". It is a barrier to entry to a smaller or newer racing region to gain the ability to compete in the club racing marketplace in SEDIV on some kind of "competitive" footing.

SEDIV is a great division. I for one would hate to see it split like CENDiv. What does not help is to accuse all the SEDIV board members of being a bunch of secretive egomanical people who don't give a rat about their members. A lot of times it is hard to get people in the region's to even give you an opinion. I do what I think is best for my region and try to make that good for the division. People are talking openly about what we can do make things better. You may or may not agree with it. Your source gave you inaccurate or incomplete information or you misunderstood it. The idea floated by the Buccaneer region was just that an idea.

You appeared to dig on Roebling getting a SARRC waiver. Well CFR got one too when the Labor Day weekend race at AMS was cancelled so people would have a place to go. These are things worked out amongst the regions. Oh by the way this "proposal" you speak of which is just an idea in seeking a solution is not on any "agenda" to be voted on at Jekyll. Have not heard a peep about that and considering I am on the SEDIV board, I should know. We have not had enough dialogue to see what if anything we are going to do about the calendar or about our resource issue. But if you don't at least talk about it then you get caught flatfooted or things go awry and divisions do split. Maybe that is what you want in the first place. I don't know. Have you actually talked to your RE about this before coming on here and accusing the SEDIV board of treachery? If not, then shame on you.

Now back to the regularly scheduled Oiver Stone movie......

Barry H.

[Sandy]

Thank you Barry. I will shake your hand in Jekyll.

[Mattberg]

Funny how the Alabama, SC and GA people all feel the same way about the topic... And if you could read, I gave you two sources for confirmation. Butch Kummer and Rick Balderson. So take that empty argument of lack of source and shove it. Your attempt to discredit me considering I already gave you confirming sources is low and calculated. But keep trying to drive it home. Typical of unintelligent officials who think they can twist everything around. You just want the ORIGINAL source so you can launch a reprisal. Despicable refuse.

Florida folks...get ready for a fight. It's clear to me now that this is just a blatant attempt to force the Florida drivers out of Florida. I believe the line in the sand has been drawn.

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 19 2005, 02:49 AM
Funny how the Alabama, SC and GA people all feel the same way about the topic... And if you could read, I gave you two sources for confirmation. Butch Kummer and Rick Balderson. So take that empty argument of lack of source and shove it. Your attempt to discredit me considering I already gave you confirming sources is low and calculated. But keep trying to drive it home. Typical of unintelligent officials who think they can twist everything around. You just want the ORIGINAL source so you can launch a reprisal. Despicable refuse.

Florida folks...get ready for a fight. It's clear to me now that this is just a blatant attempt to force the Florida drivers out of Florida. I believe the line in the sand has been drawn.

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Well, I guess I will give them a call. Rick is plugged into my cell phone and I talk to him several times a year. I see and know Butch too. Have you taken your medication for the day yet? Whew.

Barry H.

[Mattberg]

Isn't it funny that slowly but surely no one is denying this proposal existis and it's being supported by people from the regions that would benefit at the expense of Florida? Friggin' hillarious. Typical SCCA politics. I love the "have you taken your medication insults?" too. Any way to discredit someone that gets in the way of their ultimate goal. Is there any medication to take for shafting an entire state of drivers Barry?

[chuck baader]

One comment for this thread...when you fight a pig in a pigpen, after a while you realize the pig likes it The best thing we can do is ignore this rabble rouser. Chuck

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 19 2005, 03:14 AM
Isn't it funny that slowly but surely no one is denying this proposal existis and it's being supported by people from the regions that would benefit at the expense of Florida? Friggin' hillarious. Typical SCCA politics. I love the "have you taken your medication insults?" too. Any way to discredit someone that gets in the way of their ultimate goal. Is there any medication to take for shafting an entire state of drivers Barry?

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Sorry I had a hard time reading the so many posts that you had going I did miss Rick and Butch. I plan on talking to them both and they are both honorable people. I talk to Rick enough that his cell # is on my cell phone. Neither has expressed anything publicly in any SEDIV meeting pro or con that I know of. You are still railing on something that is not a proposed plan of action. You are the one who intially cast insults. Not me. But enough said. The last time I checked Florida and CFR were part of a division. One that should try and work together to solve our divisional needs and work with other regions. It is apperent that you want to split the division. It has nothing to do with the newer or smaller racing regions "underperforming". Our races have been financial successes in our three year racing tenure. Part of it is about being able to get a race on the calendar in the first place. You can have all the regionals you want can't you? So is it you want to keep all those SARRC races and to heck with the rest of the division?

That reminds me of another monty python movie. What is it? "The life of Brian". "Splitter".

Barry H.

[apexingsupra]

Originally posted by chuck baader@Nov 19 2005, 03:23 AM
One comment for this thread...when you fight a pig in a pigpen, after a while you realize the pig likes it The best thing we can do is ignore this rabble rouser. Chuck

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Oink. I have said what I need to. It is factual. I agree. It is 9:30. What are doing up so late? LOL. :P
Barry H.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by chuck baader@Nov 19 2005, 03:23 AM
One comment for this thread...when you fight a pig in a pigpen, after a while you realize the pig likes it The best thing we can do is ignore this rabble rouser. Chuck

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I'd love for all of the SC, GA and AL people to ignore me. Then I could communicate what's going on to the FL folks without you guys interceding and trying to convince them this proposal is a good thing. Instead of trying to force FL drivers and workers out of FL why don't you try marketing in your own regions?

[tom_sprecher]

Mattberg. Who is this guy? What a tool.

Go troll someplace else, we don't need it here.

[Mattberg]

Yet another Atlanta member chiming in. Mark my words FL drivers and workers. The effort to get you out of FL to the other regions is full swing and being promoted here by those who will benefit at our expense. Act early, act often and support keeping all the races we have here in FL in place.

With that said I think I'll go work on the race car for a while for the SARRC races here in FLORIDA next weeked that should have around 400 entries and plenty of workers!

GO FLORIDA!

[dickita15]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Nov 19 2005, 10:39 AM
Mattberg. Who is this guy? What a tool.

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Tom, Matt is legendary on boards thru out cyber space. He is insulting and then takes offence if he is insulted. He has a long history of making outrageous claims and is particualy offensive to anyone who contributes to administrating SCCA. He is actually pretty calm on this board, some of his stuff on the prod board is down right funny.

I actually don't mind arguing with him in person but on web boards it is down right painful.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by dickita15@Nov 19 2005, 03:16 PM
Tom, Matt is legendary on boards thru out cyber space. He is insulting and then takes offence if he is insulted. He has a long history of making outrageous claims and is particualy offensive to anyone who contributes to administrating SCCA. He is actually pretty calm on this board, some of his stuff on the prod board is down right funny.

I actually don't mind arguing with him in person but on web boards it is down right painful.

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Legendary? Why thank you Dick! I'm flattered. I don't mind the insults either. Didn't I just get called a pig? So insult away folks! All I care about is not taking races, racers and workers away from Florida.

And just curious, what outrageous claims have I made Dick? As I recall they were all pretty real issues just as this one is. Saying my claims are outrageous is usually the only defense people have when I expose something. You see Dick, this plan does exist and has been confirmed now by three regional officials, John Anderson, Rick Balderson and Butch Kummer. But two days ago it was one of my "outrageous claims". Next, they tried to deflect the focus saying my details were inaccurate. When the details were confirmed accurate, it was positioned as a plan to help new regions. When that argument didn't hold water it was reduced down to FL not being a team player and wanting to split from the divsion. What's next? Hopefully it will all go away, they can claim it never existed and they can think of it as a Mattberg outrageous claim. I'd be satisfied with that!

One thing is for sure, a lot of club officials think twice these days before doing things! I think that's a pretty good thing.

Gettin' cold up there yet? Gotta' go work on the car. Take care!

GO FLORIDA!

[Ron]

Lets all take a break here. I run out of Atlanta. I have finished in the top 10 in the SARRC in ITB the last two years and I have never headed south of my border. Maybe if there were fewer races everywhere I would travel south to run against some of the Florida crowd. David Lera and Paul Ronie, my main competitors this year, traveled to "my tracks" but I am embarrassed that I never went south to there tracks. Shame on me. One other thing to consider is that I am spoiled living in Atlanta right in the middle of the region and most tracks are 5 to 9 hours away. Infact, only Miami is 12 hours adn that is the only tow that scares me.
All I am saying is that I want to here more before I pass judgement.

Just want to race

Ron Sattele

[Chris Wire]

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories, and I don't really see what the problem is with the "proposed" plan. (Has it even been proposed?)

Having said that, what is the problem with having a SARRC champ that actually raced in more than one state? As it is, a Florida driver (and I'm one) could race 8 races in FL, pull out his 6 best and head off to Roebling as the SARRC points leader without ever having raced out of the state. Does that strike anyone else as a bit odd? Now I wouldn't call it unfair; it is what it is, and Floridians are truly blessed with the number and quality of the tracks we have. Not unfair, just odd.

Personally, I don't run any entire series, and likely won't in the near future (with the possible exception of the ECR) but I don't see a problem with asking drivers to run a more diverse schedule to crown a champion.

ED MCMAHON: Washington DC and Mattberg's head.

KARNAC: Name 2 places where politics never sleep.

[Catch22]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Nov 18 2005, 10:49 PM
It's clear to me now that this is just a blatant attempt to force the Florida drivers out of Florida.

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What would be so damned awful about that?
Its the South Atlantic championship, not the Florida championship. But currently a driver can win without ever leaving that state.

I really don't care if you guys start your own party down there. It wouldn't be that much different from the way things are right now.
I would however like to actually occassionally race against some of the guys from Florida who are often up high on the points list. Right now if I want to do that I need to go to Florida.

Start your own "Florida Road Racing Championship"
Honestly, we won't lose any sleep over it and it will minimally change the way things are right now. Alot of you guys won't even come up for the ARRC.
Look at the SARRC ITA, ITB and ITC points and then look and see how many of those drivers actually raced outside of Florida in 2005.
Its not too damned many.

[Toni]

Sometime you guys might learn not to shoot the messenger. Matt gave you information to use to keep your racing convenient and close to home.

I was in the meeting. I heard the proposal made by members of the Buccaneer Region. It was supported by members of the Alabama Region and others. The Director of Area 12 tabled the discussion and set a time of Friday night of the Jekyll meeting weekend in January to come to a determination about the proposal. The gathering is limited to the REs and the two Directors of SEDiv.

The proposal was to limit the number of races that a region could put on to:
1 National
2 regionals
1 driver’s school
Limit the number of regions that can put on a race to those regions who currently have a date on the SEDiv schedule.

It had nothing to do with SARRC. SARRC already has a limit to the number of races that a Region can put on – 4.
It had nothing to do with ECR. ECR already has a limit to the number of races per track – 1 per track.
The GCR limits the number of nationals per track to two. SEDiv has a waiver from the SCCA Board of Directors to put on the SEDiv Double National at a track where a third National occurs.

I have nothing against Buccaneer Region. I work all of their races. I raced all of their races when I was a racer. I have made financial contributions to the tracks previous two paving funds. I have nothing against Alabama Region except to wish they would race at Barbra. It is a great place but I understand why they don’t race there.

This proposal, if passed, would seriously change your racing. The Pro IT at Road Atlanta would go away. How could they have a series with only two races? You have to finish 4 regional races to keep your national license. You will have to travel to keep your license. Not only will this put limits on free enterprise by Regions to provide a racing product to their racers but it will also give other racing organizations open dates at tracks. Atlanta Region has already lost the Labor Day date at Road Atlanta to a group that pays more and makes more revenue for Road Atlanta. There will be another group ready to take the race date should SCCA decline to keep the dates they have. Which National will Central Florida give up, Sebring or Daytona? Will Atlanta give up a SARRC race or the ARRC? Which regional will North Carolina give up, the 13 hour or the SARRC/MARRS? They would only be able to have 2 regional races.

There are 18 regions in the Southeast Division. 18 people who will decide where and when you will race. Did they ask for your opinion? If you wish to give the track dates to other groups, then you might just find that you will have nowhere convenient to race SCCA.

Thanks Matt. You did a service for the racers by bringing this into the light and out of the closed door meeting.

Toni Creighton

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Toni@Nov 19 2005, 09:17 PM
Sometime you guys might learn not to shoot the messenger. Matt gave you information to use to keep your racing convenient and close to home.

Toni Creighton

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Maybe sending a messenger that many people perceive as the boy that cried wolf would make for a better reception. Oh ya, placing the topic exclusively in the Sotheast section might have gotten you someplace too.

AB
Been on 3 National Committies, 1 local and a Regional BoD and still have yet to get any payola. I must be doing someting wrong.