Here's a bombshell for you...

[Toni]

Tom

Give me your email address and I will forward the two emails to you. Then you can judge for yourself. You will be able to post them if you want or disregard them. I posted the proposal as it was attached to the distribution that was forwarded to me. That's what there is. I did not see the written proposal in the meeting. I was only a listener as it was proposed.

This proposal is real and made by credible people with official positions in SEDiv Regions. I'm sorry you don't like the way the message was brought to you - but it was brought to you. Would you have preferred this proposal be passed without your knowing about it? It very well could have been.

As ridiculous as this proposal seems to me, there are REs in this division who support this proposal. The REs get to vote. You and I and Matt don't have a vote - only a voice. If you are not aware of something how can you have an opinion?

I do hope you are able to continue to race when and where you want to race with SCCA.

Toni Creighton
[email protected]
404-625-3386

[Mattberg]

How's that for "putting up" Tom?

July this got started and we find out about it in December a month from a vote? Dirty pool my friend. Not a SINGLE non-official driver I've talked to knew anything about this. That's a fact and I've talked to a lot of them.

So If you're going to fight this if it's true, you've got your facts. You also have the lies, concealment and denial of the other regional officials right here on this site. We welcome your help in the fight to stop this outrageous proposal. Right now as I see it we're behind on the vote. Will probably lose by two or three.

What else do you need me to do? I know you'll have something else because you don't want anyone to believe me. What's next? Videotape? Recorded conversations? Affadavits? Written testimony and depositions?

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher@Dec 9 2005, 09:59 AM
God, I thought this post was dead, but I was wrong. It has been pulled back from the sewage from whence it came.

That's quite a document you guys got there. Pretty fancy letterhead but I'm having a hard time reading the signature.

As far as "...not sure how to post it in original form and I don't want to publish it any other way. I can forward the e-mail to you if you'd like..." it isn't rocket science unless this e-mail is BS.

Maybe you could cut and past the entire e-mail you keep touting and let us all in on the conspiracy. That way I could (and would) take action instead of reading your ramblings. Don’t forget the header so I know who to call or visit.

Until you present factual information, quit wasting space here. You know, put up or shut up.

[snapback]67718[/snapback]

Tom,

I've copied & pasted the distribution list as I received it.

I don't buy into the "conspiracy" aspect of it as much as Matt does, but I do think that the membership could have been better served in an open and honest fashion. Why no articles in the regional newsletters? Why no email conversations to start getting a "feel" for how the membership might react to such a proposal?

I do think Matt's tactics could use some polishing, but there is some merit in arguement as I see it. Something like this could easily fly under the radar all the way to a vote, given the denials and verbal dancing I've seen just in this thread.

Copy list below, complete with all the forwarding arrows:

>>>>From: "Kaye" <[email protected]>
>>>>To: "Wayne Henry" <[email protected]>,"Barry Hair - ALA - 001"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Bob MacIsaac - ATL - 003"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Brian
>>>>Johns - Tenn - 040" <[email protected]>,"Danny Boyd - Dixie - 095"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Gerald Street - Chatt" <[email protected]>,"Glen
>
>>>>Thompson - BRR - 103" <[email protected]>,"Greg Smith - ODR -
> 063"
>>>><[email protected]>,"John Anderson - FLR - 011"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Julie Odom - MGR - 091"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Senior - NC - 055"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Mark Tothermel - TVR - 093"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Martin Bartlett - CCR - 061"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Rick Balderson - CFR - 083"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Robert Mayes - SCR - 079"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Ted Migchelbrink - BUCC - 034"
>>>><[email protected]>,"Walt Wurzbach - GCR - 012"
>>>><[email protected]>
>>>>CC: "&#39;Bill Weston&#39;" <[email protected]>,"KP"
>>>><[email protected]>,"George Delong" <[email protected]>
>>>>Subject: Idea from Fred Clark
>>>>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 12:01:12 -0500
>>>>
>>>>Hello everyone,
>>>>
>>>>Attached is the proposal that Fred Clark came up with and briefly
>>>>discussed at the mid-year meeting.
>>>>
>>>>Kaye
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: TED MIGCHELBRINK [mailto:[email protected]]
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:10 PM
>>>>To: Bill Weston; Kaye Fairer
>>>>Subject: mid year
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Area directors, I am attaching an idea that Fred Clark came up with
> to
>>>>help with the equitable distribution of races for our division. See
> you
>>>>in a few weeks.

If you take a good look at what CFR stands to lose, it&#39;s pretty significant. Don&#39;t forget, we&#39;re not the only game in town. How many other organizations would jump at the chance to grab one of our traditional dates? A "lottery" guarantees us nothing compared to what we stand to lose. And what of the "NO racing around the year end holidays" crap? The Turkey Trot is an institution in CFR and probably one of our top 2 or 3 racing events. That policy would also negate any opportunity for another 24 hr race like Florida Region used to hold. Like I said before, run the races. If a weekend sucks and loses money, it won&#39;t be around very long. In turn, a successful racing program will sustain itself and grow.

Capitalism works wonderfully when you let it. Socialism (even the racing kind) sucks every time.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by Capt.John@Dec 9 2005, 03:38 PM
This piece of paper --- Fred Clarks proposal--- is just that, A FREAKIN PROPOSAL! I was sent a copy of it Sun. or Mon. by Kaye Fairer Area 12 Director. THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I SAW THE ACTUAL DOCUMENT. A folded up piece of paper was being passed around the room. BUT NO ACTION WAS TAKEN ON IT. This document was presented to our Race Board on Tues. night. Needless to say it "ain&#39;t gonna fly" in the FL. Region. THe Race Director Mike Finn, who was with me at the meeting in ATL. said "what kind of crap is this". Not posting something on the web site, or sending out tons of e-mail on someones proposal hardly constitutes an attempt to hide something from our members and drivers. We didn&#39;t post some of the more recent proposals issued by the Vatican either. The proposal addressed not racing over the end of the year holidays, making a giant leap of logic this came out as getting rid of the "Turkey Trot" in Nov to some. RACING WILL NOT CHANGE TO A FOUR (4) EVENT SCHEDULE IN THE FL> REGION. John Zucarrelli will become the new RE effective 1/1//06 as I did not seek re-election and he was unopposed. He shares similar feelings on the matter of the "PROPOSAL". I have received no indication of the details of the meeting that is supposedly taking place Fri. night at Jekyll. If I do, I will of course pass these on to John Z. So there you now know: What I knew, WhenI knew it, and Who told me. All cards on the table face -up, and nothing up the sleeves of my T-Shirt. I even changed the color on the Jet-Ranger from black to plaid. Jettison the canopy, and pull up on the "D" handle .....I&#39;m outta here......
Capt. John
Reg.Exec
Fl. Region-SCCA

[snapback]67721[/snapback]

Funny how some saw it in July and the FL region RE saw it this week. John, wake up and smell the coffee. You&#39;re the last person that any of these folks wanted to see it. Now go back and think about how your comments regarding the advantage of redistribution hurt us without knowing they&#39;ve been working and thinking about this since July. CAN YOU GUARANTEE WE VOTE THIS DOWN!

They way I see it there are 9 votes for as it stands. CFR, FL and NCR are the only regions I can see against and up until now I was worried about your vote. Old Dominion is probably against but all the others are a toss up. Maybe they&#39;ll chime in and let us know but I&#39;m not feeling real good about six or seven regions all within the Atlanta-Roebling area voting.

[Butch Kummer]

For the record, Atlanta Region is DEFINITELY against this proposal! This week was the first time I&#39;d seen the actual document and I&#39;ll admit it was not what I heard discussed at July&#39;s meeting.

That said, this is also just a proposal - a jumping off point for potential conversations. As I posted previously, at the July meeting there was also a(verbal) proposal to clear the calendar and have a lottery pick. That will never see the light of day either. NEITHER of these proposals has the backing to pass regardless of any backroom politics that is purported to be going on.

BTW - have you heard about the proposal to eliminate National racing? Or the one to drop IT altogether? A year ago I floated a proposal to restructure the Runoffs into three single weekend events rather than a week-long "gathering of the clans" where you get twenty minutes of track time each day. Never saw the light of day regardless of the sense it makes to the racer. I also think we can solve the problem by reducing the number of National classes to seven, but we&#39;ll never get the votes to pass that one either.

Once again, I&#39;m done.

[Mattberg]

Even funnier to me is that those RE&#39;s that would be against this proposal are only finding out about it this week versus those sponsoring it who have been informed since July. Butch, you got hoodwinked just like me my friend. I told you I had it on good authority but you told me "no way". Guess we just needed to press the issue. I think the proposal being circulated to you at this point in time was a face saving measure at best. Pretty weak attempt to try and appear to be presenting full disclosure. HEY! IT&#39;S SIX MONTHS LATER! DO YOU THINK WE&#39;RE STUPID?

I&#39;m still worried about the vote Butch. Do we have the vote of Atlanta region?

[tom_sprecher]

Matt,

Very good! It wasn&#39;t as hard as you thought, was it? I want to thank you for your quick response. Unfortunately, even though I am self employed and work out of my house, I am quite busy working for a living so I can not reciprocate in as short of time.

Credible information is what I need from you and anybody else that posts on this and other forums. Next time try starting with something that is tangible and maybe more people, including myself, may believe you from the start instead of 5+ pages into a topic.

Toni,

My email is listed on the SEDiv site under the SARRC page and here for your convenience. [email protected]. Please send me anything you have on this. We can discuss our mutual concerns at Jekyll.

Everyone else,

I for one despise socialism and welfare as we know it and feel it destroys the motivation and desire to compete and succeed. Fortunately, it appears I am in the majority, and can take comfort in that the minority is held in check by most of mankind’s common sense and need to satisfy wants through capitalism

Also, I have to agree with Butch and Capt. John that, although the proposal is very disturbing, the likelihood of the same actually becoming reality is nil. And as Chris pointed out, we as members should be informed about what our leaders are discussing especially when it affects such a large number of us in such a disconcerting way.

However, if this proposal becomes a motion, be voted on and pass I will do everything in my power to reverse the decision though the use of email, phone calls or personal visits. Believe me I can make time if I need to and regularly travel all over the Southeast on business. Plus, I’ve been looking for a good way to vent my frustrations.

[Goodrad]

The bottom line is regardless of were you stand on this issue Matt got it NOTICED. I for one just like to come to the race track and race. I know some of you might disagree with that thinking, but the reality is I think that is the Majority. So I Say Thanks Matt for looking out for our interest. Neil Radloff

[Mattberg]

That&#39;s what I like too. To race.

GO FLORIDA! GO NORTH CAROLINA!

P.S. De nada Goodrad. Probably get me a trip to the stewards tower at the next race for some hokey infraction like drinking a beer before the last session is over but I&#39;m gettng used to that harrassment. As long as everybody knows what&#39;s going on it&#39;s a good thing.

[Mattberg]

Don&#39;t worry folks. Just talked to Florida incoming RE John Zucarelli. He&#39;s not going to let anyone screw us. Guy from Jersey with a name like that? I&#39;m feeling way better now.

Barry.....

You got a New York Jew, a Jersey Italian and a couple of angry Florida rednecks coming at you. Time to party. Bring on your good ol&#39; boys from Alabama. You have no idea what you&#39;re walking into.

ps. I&#39;m adding 438 people onto my family membership from the Sunny Isles Retirement home in Miami.

[Drew Aldred]

The part that kills me about all of this is when Matt brought this out a few weeks ago, alot of people said about the meeting/proposal, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base". Now that it has come to light as being the truth and this proposal may get voted on, alot of people are saying, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base, this will never pass".

Well prove Matt wrong and write letters to stop this madness. If this proposal does get traction and become reality, it&#39;ll be a sad day.

Matt,

See ya at Sebring in a few weeks. I&#39;ll watch your beer while you&#39;re in the Stewards tower !!!

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Drew Aldred@Dec 9 2005, 01:32 PM
The part that kills me about all of this is when Matt brought this out a few weeks ago, alot of people said about the meeting/proposal, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base". Now that it has come to light as being the truth and this proposal may get voted on, alot of people are saying, "You&#39;re wrong, way off base, this will never pass".

Well prove Matt wrong and write letters to stop this madness. If this proposal does get traction and become reality, it&#39;ll be a sad day.

Matt,

See ya at Sebring in a few weeks. I&#39;ll watch your beer while you&#39;re in the Stewards tower !!!

[snapback]67752[/snapback]

Way too much stuff slides by because we don&#39;t believe it could possibly happen.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Every proposal gets voted on in one way or another. If the idea sucks (like most seem to think this one does), then it gets quickly sent to the circular file. It seems to me that somebody thought this was a good idea and the group it was put in front of didn&#39;t want to vote right away. It was tabled.

Seems resonable. If it&#39;s bad for the Division, it won&#39;t pass, if it&#39;s good for the Division, it just might. My issues with this thread aren&#39;t about the proposal itself, its about the way it was put out there that it was secret and trying to get rammed through. If it&#39;s a bad idea, it won&#39;t pass. Your elected officials are there to vote on your behalf. If you don&#39;t like the way they vote, VOTE THEM OUT or get on the ballot yourself.

That is the issue for the General Section.

AB

[Butch Kummer]

Sorry to be so long in responding, but I wanted to confirm the way I THOUGHT our RE would vote (I am Asst. RE & Competition Director for 2006). I met with her this afternoon and she emphatically stated that she would vote AGAINST this proposal should it ever be presented in the form of a motion.

Count Atlanta Region solidly in the NAY column.

I still contend this is but one proposal that was floated to address a very real problem in SEDIV and there are no black helicopters hovering.

[Mattberg]

No black helos Butch. Just want to know where you stand. Thank you.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 9 2005, 03:52 PM
Every proposal gets voted on in one way or another. If the idea sucks (like most seem to think this one does), then it gets quickly sent to the circular file. It seems to me that somebody thought this was a good idea and the group it was put in front of didn&#39;t want to vote right away. It was tabled.

Seems resonable. If it&#39;s bad for the Division, it won&#39;t pass, if it&#39;s good for the Division, it just might. My issues with this thread aren&#39;t about the proposal itself, its about the way it was put out there that it was secret and trying to get rammed through. If it&#39;s a bad idea, it won&#39;t pass. Your elected officials are there to vote on your behalf. If you don&#39;t like the way they vote, VOTE THEM OUT or get on the ballot yourself.

That is the issue for the General Section.

AB

[snapback]67768[/snapback]

Andy, Most times I agree but there have been times stuff just got by because groups in power came together on what they thought was the greater good. That sad part is getting people to run for office is like pulling teeth.

[apexingsupra]

One the proposal by Buccanneer region was not my proposal/idea (if you can read it says Fred Clark) nor did I have any input in it.

Two, I have already said in a previous post the proposal is not one that does anything for my region (as in no) but then I guess that does not fit into Mattberg&#39;s conspiracy theory and he will ignore this again.

Three, it was not made as a motion, seconded or voted on.

Four, I don&#39;t expect to see it on the agenda at the annual meeting but then that is not up to me. It is up to the Buccanneer region since it was their idea.

Barry H.

[lateapex911]

Matt... here&#39;s what I read of your post to me;

" Why is a name needed to represent something as FACT? What you don&#39;t seem to grasp here is that there can be serious recourse for some of these officials......

.........bla bla bla bla bla...............

...............What I don&#39;t understand Jake is how you, as a driver, could defend the actions surrounding this issue. I hope the reason you&#39;re speaking out is that you just don&#39;t like me or my methods"

Huh??? What does that have to do with my post where I quoted your cheating snipes????? You are avoiding my reaction to your post accusing Bob of cheating.... without any kind of backing proof. It&#39;s a common ploy used by you.

It is obvious that you are more than happy to attempt to smear someone&#39;s name regardless of the available proof, or even facts.

Please..look up the word "integrity"...I doubt that the definition includes attacks on people without grounds.

If you have grounds, present them. If you do not, then keep it to yourself.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by apexingsupra@Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM
One the proposal by Buccanneer region was not my proposal/idea (if you can read it says Fred Clark) nor did I have any input in it.

[snapback]67789[/snapback]

But you also said:

"...the rules need to be changed and or someone with a large number of races needs to consider giving up a date. I would like to think the larger racing regions do not have a "tough luck" we have the dates attitude and I don&#39;t see that as such. It is about dialogue and the need to explore whether the different regions can accomplish their goals with a little "give and take".

Ok, Barry. You had no input. Why would you make the above statement defending the plan in detail which by the way had not been distributed to most yet but you seemed to know all about it? I&#39;m really starting to believe Toni, not you. Your comment is an outline of the proposal. Just coincidence? I love the fact that you&#39;re throwing it all back on Buccaneer now too. It&#39;s like tigers eating their young. Hilarious!

Then you said:

"You also assume that Chattanooga is possibly thinking about racing at Roebling when that has never been part of any discussion or thought process with them. It would be somewhere else. "

"Somewhere else"? I thought you had no input or discussions? How would you know?

Originally posted by apexingsupra@Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM
Two, I have already said in a previous post the proposal is not one that does anything for my region (as in no) but then I guess that does not fit into Mattberg&#39;s conspiracy theory and he will ignore this again.

[snapback]67789[/snapback]

But you also said:

"We as a division are trying to find solutions to our problems hopefully before they become bigger problems. My region has had extreme difficulty in the last two years in scheduling a SARRC race. Every potential date we have had was occupied by a "traditional dated" (SARRC rule) event. It has taken a lot of negotiation to get even one date on the calendar and both times it has involved Florida (thank you Capt. John). Florida gave up a race weekend and did not replace it. If the Alabama region wants to put on a another SARRC race (possibly with Chattanooga) for a grand total of two races we will run into the same problem. The calendar is already full. Either the rules need to be changed and or someone with a large number of races needs to consider giving up a date. "

Really now Barry. No kool aid for me thank you. This is all about what Alabama can get. First, you talk about the proposal like you&#39;ve known about it for months and already know how it affects your region and the a second later you say you know nothing about it. Sheeesh.

Originally posted by apexingsupra+Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM-->

Three, it was not made as a motion, seconded or voted on.

[snapback]67789[/snapback]

[/b]

Not sure about that because I heard a rumor that since this pile of dookie blew up in your faces that members will be addressed somehow on order to avoid any more fallout. I&#39;m thinking some mass mailing or maybe something at the next race or two in driver&#39;s meetings. If it weren&#39;t as far along as some of us think I&#39;m just wondering why there&#39;s such an urgency to get input.

<!--QuoteBegin-apexingsupra@Dec 10 2005, 02:14 AM
Four, I don&#39;t expect to see it on the agenda at the annual meeting but then that is not up to me. It is up to the Buccanneer region since it was their idea.

[snapback]67789[/snapback]

Got that right. Like I said. If it comes up in the meeting I wil be there with a group of drivers and it will look like the courtroom scene from Animal House. I&#39;m just going to keep on going with the plan of making sure that this proposal is never discussed at any meeting. K?

You told us that no proposal existed. Now you&#39;re saying it did but you had nothing to do with it... but your name is on the copy list. So you had nothing to do with it but you came here and denied it existed or that the issue was discussed because? Then you defended the proposal saying that SCCA SEDIV is not a free enterprise system and you said we needed to change the rules...but you had no input. You said it didn&#39;t help your region? Why would you care if it didn&#39;t help you? Why even comment let alone defend the proposal?

You say your region has no role in the proposal and gains nothing yet in another post you claim Roebling is your "home" track and they just happen to be the benefactors in a big way with this proposal. You also say that&#39;s where you plan to race and you want more races without competing dates. Then you talk about how the proposal will help you solve some problems. Which is it? I&#39;m so confused!

You really should consider politics because you&#39;re taking the Texas side step to new levels. (No offense Texas folks. Just a saying )

And, Barry, I don&#39;t think there&#39;s any big conspiracy. Just a greedy group of regional executives who got caught being disingenuine. You&#39;ve changed your story so many times I can&#39;t keep track.

I&#39;m a little stunned as to how defiant you are in defending the plan yet you say it does nothing for you. Hmmmmm. Ok. Whatever. Just keep this in mind. When and if this comes up for discussion I will have more paperwork than a Skadden Arps attorney proving how outrageous the proposal is. Then we&#39;re going to examine the intentions of the proposal and I&#39;m going to have this neat little graphic presentation showing how lopsided the distribution is. Then we&#39;re going to look at whomever was responsible for trying to attempt to create such a lopsided situation and make sure it never happens again without full and immediate disclosure. Then, I&#39;m going to demand that all ideas, discussions and proposals, formal and informal be published on each region&#39;s website. You wil NEVER, repeat, NEVER have closed door meetings or circulate limited distribution proposals ever again without serious recourse. Just a warning.

Last Barry, I&#39;m going to lay off you for now but I&#39;m also going to ask that you abstain from voting if the proposal comes to a vote. You said it doesn&#39;t affect your region so I think that&#39;s fair.

p.s. I think you owe Toni an apology. Just a personal observation.


GO FLORIDA and NORTH CAROLINA!

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Dec 10 2005, 02:44 AM
You really should consider politics because you&#39;re taking the Texas side step to new levels. (No offense Texas folks. Just a saying )

These days you would be more accurate referring to it as the Massachusetts sidestep, or the Vermont two-step!

Texas brings it straight and has been since 2001!