1999 Miata in ITS?

[Colin Harmer]

Just wondering what the collective opinion of the mazda folks would be on making a 1999 miata a competitive ITS car?

Looking at the E36 BMW and Rx7 cars, it would seem not, but maybe I'm missing something?

Has anyone had a good hard look at this?

Thougts? Comments? Misc ramblings?

I'm all ears!

Thanks,

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think the 99+ Miata will be just like the other Miata' in IT now. A REAL good choice for the short and twisty or the short-momentum type tracks...on the big stuff, I don't think the lower power numbers will allow it to overcome the aero problem...

AB

[MMiskoe]

There was one that ran at NHIS this fall. It had a SM setup in it (I think) and the owner wanted to get some miles on it so he entered it in the ITS race starting from the back. I don't konw the specifics of the set up, but it was not built as an ITS car. He finished 13th out of 24 ITS finishers, (35 cars in the group), his fastest lap was 2 seconds off the fastest lap of the winner. Pretty impressive I thought, I will however tip my hat to the driver who seems to come out on top in any car he gets into.

[seckerich]

Check with Mike at ISC Racing. Kip ran an ITS miata at the SIC in Savannah and was pretty quick. Got killed on the long straight but closed up well in the tight stuff. With a slight weight break it would be a good pick.
Steve Eckerich
ITS 18 Speedsource RX7

[Colin Harmer]

OK, any thoughts on a 94 ITA Miata?

Let me know...

Colin

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Colin Harmer@Nov 18 2005, 01:41 PM
OK, any thoughts on a 94 ITA Miata?

Let me know...

Colin

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Same thoughts. I am converting a 1995 SM to ITA for the 2006 season. My thoughts on the car:

- I think it will be one of the best handling and braking cars in ITA
- I think the power potential is not huge but will be enough to compete on smaller tracks like NHIS and LRP.
- I think it will be very hard compete on big tracks like RA, Pocono, WGI...
- I think it will qualify well
- If it gets held up in the corners, it will be tough.
- My goal is 130-135whp...(160 crank)

AB

[Fastfred92]

For what its worth I submitted a request to the comp board to move the 99+ Miata to ITA with adjustments as needed..... Waiting for the Fastrack to come out with the denial.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Nov 18 2005, 03:04 PM
For what its worth I submitted a request to the comp board to move the 99+ Miata to ITA with adjustments as needed..... Waiting for the Fastrack to come out with the denial.

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Fred,

Your letter was a short as they come. No supporting data, no facts or figures, nothing. What about it would convince anyone to rethink something that is only about a year old? The 99+ fits the process for a lightweight 142hp car.

You are looking at a 2650lb+ car in ITA...you think that is a better choice than in ITS? Maybe but what is there, 1 full-tilt car on the planet with 3 months of development time on it? I think waiting is a good choice. ITA may be the better place but it will have to weigh quite a bit...

I am resigned to the fact that cars like the Miata aren't going to be the best choice on the big tracks...but they should be able to compete very well on the momentum stuff.

AB

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 18 2005, 08:34 PM
Fred,

Your letter was a short as they come. No supporting data, no facts or figures, nothing. What about it would convince anyone to rethink something that is only about a year old? The 99+ fits the process for a lightweight 142hp car.

You are looking at a 2650lb+ car in ITA...you think that is a better choice than in ITS? Maybe but what is there, 1 full-tilt car on the planet with 3 months of development time on it? I think waiting is a good choice. ITA may be the better place but it will have to weigh quite a bit...

I am resigned to the fact that cars like the Miata aren't going to be the best choice on the big tracks...but they should be able to compete very well on the momentum stuff.

AB

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Andy

While my request was short and sweet I think the fact that what we see in Pro Spec Miata should provide a great insight to how a 99+ car will perform. Granted the level of prep is different (in IT ) but it is the same amount on any IT Miata ( 90 on ) thus you would assume similar results. Given the 99+ already weighs more and has a intake restrictor logic would point to similar performance as pre 99 Miatas with the same level of prep. This notion that people will get cars classed ( too high ) and spend wads of money ( to develop ) to be a back marker is crazy. Lets class a car were it has a chance then back it down if needed. The board will always be able to say nobody has fully "developed" car XXXX but in reality it is simply stupid to spend big money to be a back marker and develop a car that has no chance going in. Kip proved my point at the SIC this year: Fully preped 99 Miata ( $ no object ), great driver and team, most handling oriented track in the SE division, and mid pack result in ITS ( a distant mid pack vs. RX7's and e36 )

My .02 Fred

[RP Performance]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 18 2005, 07:07 PM
Same thoughts. I am converting a 1995 SM to ITA for the 2006 season. My thoughts on the car:
- I think it will be one of the best handling and braking cars in ITA
- I think the power potential is not huge but will be enough to compete on smaller tracks like NHIS and LRP.
- I think it will be very hard compete on big tracks like RA, Pocono, WGI...
- I think it will qualify well
- If it gets held up in the corners, it will be tough.
- My goal is 130-135whp...(160 crank)

AB

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Andy you will not have any problem with that HP, my 1.6 was in that range. I fell like I could find another 5 or 10 hp with ECU mods and some head work.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Nov 18 2005, 05:31 PM
Andy

While my request was short and sweet I think the fact that what we see in Pro Spec Miata should provide a great insight to how a 99+ car will perform. Granted the level of prep is different (in IT ) but it is the same amount on any IT Miata ( 90 on ) thus you would assume similar results. Given the 99+ already weighs more and has a intake restrictor logic would point to similar performance as pre 99 Miatas with the same level of prep. This notion that people will get cars classed ( too high ) and spend wads of money ( to develop ) to be a back marker is crazy. Lets class a car were it has a chance then back it down if needed. The board will always be able to say nobody has fully "developed" car XXXX but in reality it is simply stupid to spend big money to be a back marker and develop a car that has no chance going in. Kip proved my point at the SIC this year: Fully preped 99 Miata ( $ no object ), great driver and team, most handling oriented track in the SE division, and mid pack result in ITS ( a distant mid pack vs. RX7's and e36 )

My .02 Fred

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Fred,

My point is that the Miata is classed right where it should be in ITS. It just may not have checkered flag potential on every track. It isn't alone in that regard. Give the ISC guys a little more time and I am sure the car will get quicker.

I think everyone has to look at the car they are considering building and if it doesn't add up on paper that it may be a contender - then the stupid thing may very well be spending big money to build one and then crying wolf when prod-style comp adjustments are the only thing that will bring it to the podium.

I don't think the SM reference holds water either. The 99+ has to be 'dumbed down' so much in SM (2500lbs, 43mm restrictor) that you can't compare it to a car with open intake @ 2300. The 99+ has WAY more potential when the SM rules go away.

AB

[JeffYoung]

Fred, Mike Van Steenburg routinely BEATS fast S cars at Roebling and CMP in his ITA Miata. He even took an OVERALL win at CMP last year -- and it wasn't a chump ITS field as Kent Thompson was there in his very fast Second Gen RX7.

Andy has this nailed. The Miata (of which I have two, and have raced them in both ITA and SM) is a fantastic momentum/twisty track car. It can be a giant killer on those tracks.

At VIR, Lowe's, Road Atlanta, what it gains in the corners is not enough to overcome its issues with aero and power on the straights.

Miatas are presently very competitive in ITA in my region.

[lateapex911]

Good post Jeff, wasn't Thompson just at the ARRCs? What did he turn there for times? I seem to remember that car at the front of th grid for the enduro.

[JeffYoung]

Jake, Rick qualified fifth for the ARRC sprint race, and got up to 2nd but couldn't get around Lukas who took the win. He ran a 1:46 which I know was the fast lap of the race, and possibly an IT7 track record? He told me in an e-mail that the motor is down on power, so I suspect he is probably capable of another second or two. By comparison, the fast A cars ran 42s I think with the new Turn 10.

Not sure if Rick or Attila Lukacs got any clean laps though as they had a split start with the 7s out back. Also not sure if he ran the Enduro or not....

The 7 is still a bit of an enigma to me. We've got a fast group of them here that run with the A cars at VIR, CMP and Roebling. The ARRC results don't lie though, they don't seem to be able to compete there.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Hard for me to see them as a B car when I get beat by them regularly in my S car, but the case for B is pretty strong. That is a tough one.

Rick, jump in at any time with more details.

[lateapex911]

LOL< Actually Jeff, I was talking about KENT Thompson, from your post. Mike V came to Lime Rock, and ran the ITA Miata in the NARRC Runoffs in 04, and was fast..in the low 3s or high 2s if i remember..good for around 5th or so. And it is a momentum track.

Kips (VanSteenberg) cars are always well turned out, and he can drive too.

[Colin Harmer]

SM pole at the ARRC 1:44:525
ITA Pole at the ARRC 1:42:458 (CRX Si)

There didn&#39;t seem to be a competetitve ITA Miata at Atlanta this year, so we can&#39;t really validate any results from this. But....

I don&#39;t think it&#39;s un reasonalble for a Miata in IT Trim to be able to find 2 seconds and "get in the game" in this class.

I look at:
-Suspension (good d/a shocks, adjustable bars, spring rate choice, light rims, bushings)
-Rear End
-Head (port matched, .5 compression bump)
-No restrictor
-Exhaust (race header)
-Fuel Mapping (ECU mods/replacement)

And think to myself that there&#39;s at least 1.5-2 seconds in all of this.

I think a competitive ITA Miata is a pretty solid bet....Time to start the deep thought process!

[Colin Harmer]

Just to add to the debate...

I&#39;m presuming that the 1.8l at 2380# will be quicker than a 1.6 at 2205#?

Seems like that motor would easily make up for the 175#....

Any thoughts on this?

[JeffYoung]

Sorry Jake --- I think I saw Kent Thompson ran a 1:40 in Enduro qualifying. Damn good lap.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Colin Harmer@Nov 20 2005, 12:36 PM
SM pole at the ARRC 1:44:525
ITA Pole at the ARRC 1:42:458 (CRX Si)

There didn&#39;t seem to be a competetitve ITA Miata at Atlanta this year, so we can&#39;t really validate any results from this. But....

I don&#39;t think it&#39;s un reasonalble for a Miata in IT Trim to be able to find 2 seconds and "get in the game" in this class.

I look at:
-Suspension (good d/a shocks, adjustable bars, spring rate choice, light rims, bushings)
-Rear End
-Head (port matched, .5 compression bump)
-No restrictor
-Exhaust (race header)
-Fuel Mapping (ECU mods/replacement)

And think to myself that there&#39;s at least 1.5-2 seconds in all of this.

I think a competitive ITA Miata is a pretty solid bet....Time to start the deep thought process!

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I have seen this kind of thought process before and I don&#39;t buy into it. Here is why:

- SM&#39;s run in packs. On tracks like WGI, just running with another car or two can lower your lap times by OVER A SECOND due to aero.
- SM&#39;s do not hold each other up in corners. Anytime they run with other classes, racing times are significantly lower.

I do think the cars will get faster but by no means will they dominate. They should qualify well but when cars that are slower in corners and faster on the straights (CRX&#39;s, Integra&#39;s, 240SX&#39;s) get in front of them, it kills the ability to run what they can run alone. I do think they can run up front, but maybe not front, front. I just don&#39;t think the math is linear from SM to ITA like it may be in other examples.

Now having said all that, Bred DePedro has succeeded both at long tracks and short but his progam is matched only by his driving. I hope I can be as successful!

AB

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 21 2005, 03:50 AM
I have seen this kind of thought process before and I don&#39;t buy into it. Here is why:

- SM&#39;s run in packs. On tracks like WGI, just running with another car or two can lower your lap times by OVER A SECOND due to aero.
- SM&#39;s do not hold each other up in corners. Anytime they run with other classes, racing times are significantly lower.

I do think the cars will get faster but by no means will they dominate. They should qualify well but when cars that are slower in corners and faster on the straights (CRX&#39;s, Integra&#39;s, 240SX&#39;s) get in front of them, it kills the ability to run what they can run alone. I do think they can run up front, but maybe not front, front. I just don&#39;t think the math is linear from SM to ITA like it may be in other examples.

Now having said all that, Bred DePedro has succeeded both at long tracks and short but his progam is matched only by his driving. I hope I can be as successful!

AB

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Andy, using your own valid argument explain to me how you see the 99+ cars ever having a chance in ITS when you admit the early cars have little chance in ITA.... Using these same ARRC results show me the 99+ cars that outshine the early ones in SM?

My argument is that the additional mods allowed in IT are linear in that they apply to ITA the same as ITS. Given that in SM or Pro SM the 99+ has had no real advantage given a set of rules to equalize them ( read like IT comp adjustments ) so I can very easily see a ITA 99+ Miata being a competitive car, not a OVERDOG. No scenario, in my opinion, has the 99+ competitive in ITS.