ITR, When???

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 12 2005, 12:54 PM
Quick test:

As NCR ITR program chair, you are approached by the chapter president of BMWCCA who assures you that there are 20 well-heeled M3 owners with cars built and ready to commit to running ITR the first year of its existence. However, they would like to be able to run in BMWCCA Prepared specs, and are even willing to take a 200# weight handicap, over that prescribed by your planning, to do so. Remembering that they are all rich, what is your immediate reaction?



K

EDIT - I had to check. These would be e36 M3's running in I Prepared.

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You politely tell them that the SCCA doesn't structure their rules around those of other organizations. You can also remind him (or her) that the precedent exists for running cars prepared to SCCA IT rules, in BMWCCA classes (e.g. ITS E36 runs in JP).

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Dec 12 2005, 01:45 PM
You politely tell them that the SCCA doesn't structure their rules around those of other organizations. You can also remind him (or her) that the precedent exists for running cars prepared to SCCA IT rules, in BMWCCA classes (e.g. ITS E36 runs in JP).

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And you also politely remind him to remind his BMWCCA drivers who race in IT events to kindly put a restrictor on, take those hot cams out of their cars, remove the subframe braces, the larger throttle body, and comply to IT rules.

K, NO. If we get 20, good, if we don't, well, we don't. It is an IT class and will remain IT structure 100%. I think that when the PCA/BMW groups notice we've got a class for a lot of their cars they'll come play. Some still view SCCA as being a serious playground for racing and a step above what they do.

R

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 12 2005, 01:07 PM
...and the RE has told you that the class won't be allowed in a run group until 20 drivers have signed a letter of intent to run?

K

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I'll say sorry, we're not letting them run. But then I'll politely point out that we keep running open wheel Formula Vees in their own group when two cars show up, thus delaying the entire field many, many, many hours of the course of a double weekend. So we can all watch two formula vees race each other. True - happened at CMP about six or seven weeks ago.

R

[Knestis]

So far, everyone's passed the quiz. Good job!

Now for the final...

It's 2008 and ITR has caught fire in NC Region. It's growing in popularity and 20 M3 owners, forced out of their racing program by a shift in emphasis to drifting events by BMWCCA, now form the core of the entries.

Ron has a periodically fast 928 built, but he's fighting ongoing FI challenges, resulting from removal of pollution control hardware. Jeff is running a 1981 V12 Jaguar XJS in old Tullius Gr44 colors, that has everyone covered on the straights but goes through brakes like the driver changes underwear...

Sorry.

Anyway, 20 of 22 entrants decide that it's time to apply some democracy and vote to make Raleigh-based BMW technical guru and frontrunning M3 entrant Erich von Schwartzenwald ITR chair. He is elected on the strength of his goal to "give the cams back" to the M3s, that are visibly down on power to the Porsche and Jag entries.

Now what?

I wish that there were someone who could speak from firsthand experience about the Porschefication of ITE in NW Region SCCA. The region got to the point where they pretty much had to give the PCA entrants whatever they wanted, because they made up the bulk of any regional event entry. Or at least, that's what i saw from the outside.

K

EDIT - Didja have the Jag on the list yet?

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 12 2005, 02:23 PM
So far, everyone's passed the quiz. Good job!

Now for the final...

Ron has a periodically fast 928 built, but he's fighting ongoing FI challenges, resulting from removal of pollution control hardware. Jeff is running a 1981 V12 Jaguar XJS in old Tullius Gr44 colors, that has everyone covered on the straights but goes through brakes like the driver changes underwear...

Now what?[/i]

EDIT - Didja have the Jag on the list yet?

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Dang, I'll have to think on the final a bit. But, I did learn something new - so drivers wear underwear? Man, I was wondering what I was doing wrong, my laundry bill was more than my engine service!

R

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 12 2005, 11:23 AM

I wish that there were someone who could speak from firsthand experience about the Porschefication of ITE in NW Region SCCA. The region got to the point where they pretty much had to give the PCA entrants whatever they wanted, because they made up the bulk of any regional event entry. Or at least, that's what i saw from the outside.

K

EDIT - Didja have the Jag on the list yet?

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And now there numbers are dropping in Oregon/NWR and their run group has been put in the IT run group. We now have Turbo 944's and 600hp camaro's battling through ITC 510's and rabbits. All to give SM it's own run group. Our regional group H has been turned into A_Z soup because another class has been added to the schedule. The High speed stuff has pushed most of the regular IT competition over to another club because they don't want to run with them.

[JeffYoung]

Kurt, you're an easy prof man!

We beat down that sucker.

Seriously, the answer has to be: no. It's not that different really from those who ask for weight breaks in IT -- barring a correction of an incorrect weight or a "uniform" reorganization based on a formula (sorry Darin) the Jag still dominates the M3s down the straights and then parks it in the corners. That, to me, is most attractive part of IT in teh first place. Different cars, different strengths.

Which makes the initial classification process so important, as Andy mentioned elsewhere on another thread. BUT, fortunately, we have had Andy, Jake, Darin, et. al. come up with a fairly workable formula that should be applied to ITR cars when classification happens (if it happens). If some guys want to come in and muck it up with cams, etc. it is the duty of the entire IT community to say no.

Also, your vision of Ron and Jeff in ITR is weirdly prophetic......I hope we have more sense than that, but of course I'm the one salivating at $4000 928s on ebay.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 12 2005, 02:23 PM
So far, everyone's passed the quiz. Good job!

Now for the final...

It's 2008 and ITR has caught fire in NC Region. It's growing in popularity and 20 M3 owners, forced out of their racing program by a shift in emphasis to drifting events by BMWCCA, now form the core of the entries.

Ron has a periodically fast 928 built, but he's fighting ongoing FI challenges, resulting from removal of pollution control hardware. Jeff is running a 1981 V12 Jaguar XJS in old Tullius Gr44 colors, that has everyone covered on the straights but goes through brakes like the driver changes underwear...

Sorry.

Anyway, 20 of 22 entrants decide that it's time to apply some democracy and vote to make Raleigh-based BMW technical guru and frontrunning M3 entrant Erich von Schwartzenwald ITR chair. He is elected on the strength of his goal to "give the cams back" to the M3s, that are visibly down on power to the Porsche and Jag entries.

Now what?

I wish that there were someone who could speak from firsthand experience about the Porschefication of ITE in NW Region SCCA. The region got to the point where they pretty much had to give the PCA entrants whatever they wanted, because they made up the bulk of any regional event entry. Or at least, that's what i saw from the outside.

K

EDIT - Didja have the Jag on the list yet?

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Damn Kirk, I've had open-book exams that were harder than that.* That answer is very easy. The ITCS specify what is and is not allowed. Alternate camshafts are not allowed, and are really inconsistent w/ the IT category philosophy. You are welcome to request an adjustment from Topeka, but keep in mind that competition adjustments are not allowed in IT. However, if you read the clause on new car classifications, you will see that performance, relative to other cars in the class, will be reviewed after the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year of classification. Based on this review, the car can possibly be moved to another class, or receive some sort of PCA. Being as the M3 has only been classified for one year, it is not currently eligible for any reclassification/adjustment. In addition, Regions are not allowed to alter the rules for any Nationally-recognized classification.

You do have the option of running in ITE though, with the guys that didn't want to take their cams out.



*I've had more than my fair share of open-book exams that were murder!!! It was simply used to illlustrate a point, and give a nod to Kirk's former life as a teacher.

[Knestis]

Oooh - "A" for effort and classroom participation, Bill but you missed big points not reading the questions completely.

The scenario was that NCR SCCA insituted ITR as a regional-only class. Topeka has no bearing on the subject. Ron's prototype ITR rules might reference the ITCS but there's no big SCCA stick to enforce that first principle. If the locals decide that they want cams, they get cams. All they have to do is lobby their regional gurus, who typically let entrants guide the direction of regional-only classes.

And Jeff - this wasn't a Yes/No question. In the last scenario, the regional ITR chair lost what control he might have had the instant Erich was voted in. Just like you might be successful lobbying to get ITR started, a different set of voices - louder voices, potentially, since they already have cars built - can successfully lobby for changes beyond the original vision of The Creators.

This has happened time and again in this and other clubs. The RS class that Darin and Joe are so familiar with has changed a lot since 20 years ago when Steve Taylor and a couple of us sat down with beers in hand to come up with the first rules. There were about 10 of them, as I recall. The "S" originally stood for "sedan"...

K

[JeffYoung]

Kirk, I understood the question, just didn't articulate the response as well as I should have.

If one group of IT drivers stands up and asks for a change to the IT rules that negatively impacts EVERYONE (i.e. allowing cams), then all IT drivers/classes should move to stop that effort.

Will they be successful? I don't know. But that is how it is, in my limited experience, dealt with within the SCCA.

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 12 2005, 04:42 PM
The scenario was that NCR SCCA insituted ITR as a regional-only class. Topeka has no bearing on the subject. Ron's prototype ITR rules might reference the ITCS but there's no big SCCA stick to enforce that first principle. If the locals decide that they want cams, they get cams. All they have to do is lobby their regional gurus, who typically let entrants guide the direction of regional-only classes.

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Kirk, this is a good point. But, I think it underscores the need to make it a real IT class and subject to SCCA rules, not just a regional class. I'm hoping ITU DOES NOT start as a regional only and can instead be accepted by the ITAC and CRB, but if not, I and some others who have written and emailed, will certainly try for at least regional status. And then we'll have to deal with what you have projected.

Even if we start regional and convert quickly we could avoid your scenario - I think it'll take the BMW boys longer than a year to gain control and elect with Erich von Schwartzenwald.

PS-No, I we can't put the XJS in IT - all IT cars must have a manual transmission per IT spec and the XJS was not offered in the US in this configuration. Darn it.

[Bill Miller]

The scenario was that NCR SCCA insituted ITR as a regional-only class

Actually Kirk, you didn't say that. What you said was "NCR ITR Program Chair". While I can see where you could interpret that as meaning that it was a NCR-only program, there's nothing in the original question that explicitly states that. Probably not valid of me to assume that we had already put the bottom-up scenario to bed, but your question was somewhat vague in that respect.

However, given that it's a NCR-only gig, what I would assume would have been in the original class charter, was that it was going to be an extension of IT, w/ the goal of having ITR Nationally recogonized. Given that, I think my response was accurate and valid. Even though it was a NCR-only program, you could still wave the National ITCS at them, and use it as justification for your position. A 'not consistent with category philosophy' if you will.

[Knestis]

Oh, great - another one of those kids who's going to blame the test.

I knew what I meant!

K

[lateapex911]

Kirk's point is EXTREMELY valid...

Even when a program such as this starts out with great intentions, and has a solid group of supporters behind it, it can still run off the tracks for any number of circumstances...Ron has health/family/job issues and steps away for a year, and Jeff gets an awesome position in a killer law firm that has offices a half hour from a great track...AND the main partner is getting old, but has one of those XJ220s that needs exercise....so he moves away too, leaving the program in someone elses hands...

Next thing you know, the guys with the vision and the backbone are gone, and the program is corrupted.

The key is the National acceptance. And I think the key to that is recognizing a real need.

THAT is where the public comes in...cards and letters, as Rick suggests. IF there is demand, the ITAC will tackle it. Ron's vision is great, and I think that if the process is respected, it could see the light of day, sooner than some long time observers might think.