ITR, When???

[Z3_GoCar]

So I've got my car comming, and it's a Z3 2.8l. I can run DE's and BMW club with it, but I want to build it so that I can run IT when a class opens up. So I'd just like to know what's going on in this department. Also, would it be helpful if I filled out a request to classify form? Want to class the Boxter and S-2K also? How about the 3 series 328's? Audi A-6? BMW classes the Z3 2.8 at 2730 lbs. if that gives any idea of a resonable weight. So, maybe outline the process that needs to be performed and any place I might be able to help. Thanks,

James

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Z3_GoCar@Nov 14 2005, 10:08 PM
So, maybe outline the process that needs to be performed and any place I might be able to help. Thanks,

James

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James,

The Rules Making process is outlined in the "Garage" section of the SCCA.com site...

As for making a class above ITS... Here's what I think it would take...

You guys who would commit to such a class need to write letters to the CRB in the form of classification requests for the cars in question. I'd personally do a seperate request for each car, which may be necessary anyhow since you need to fill out a VTS sheet for each one...

With that done, send them to the CRB, via the SCCA tech department with the appropriate request and data...

I think if we could show enough interest, we could get this done. We've already had to turn cars down because they could not be made to fit into ITS, so those would be back on the table as well and would be considered along with these requests...

Get started now! That would give us until next August to work out the details and see if we could put a package together that would fly...

Not sure about the weight, but when we've played around with it, the E36 would come in in such a class at around 2700lbs... 300Z perhaps at 3050lbs, etc... It would all depend on the range of cars and what would seem like a reasonable target wt/pwr ratio for the class as a whole...

Write and we'll see what we can do... I don't think I'm alone in thinking that this would be a wonderful idea and would WORK!

[Bill Miller]

Darin,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that should be part of the overall Club Racing Strategic Plan. This should be a pro-active step. The writing is on the wall, make a place for these cars to run. You guys now have the tools in place to make a list of 20-30 cars that should fit nicely, with target weights.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 14 2005, 11:38 PM
Darin,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that should be part of the overall Club Racing Strategic Plan. This should be a pro-active step.

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Bill... who said it WASN'T part of an plan?

But... we (the ITAC), don't make recomendations to please ourselves... We have to be able to show a need. It's not exactly a small job...

Nothing garners support for something like this better than numbers...

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 14 2005, 04:38 PM
Darin,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that should be part of the overall Club Racing Strategic Plan. This should be a pro-active step. The writing is on the wall, make a place for these cars to run. You guys now have the tools in place to make a list of 20-30 cars that should fit nicely, with target weights.

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I think Darin and others on the ITAC would agree with you. However (and this is important) there HAS to be support among the members if you get my drift.

What if they had a race and nobody came?........

[Geo]

Looks like Darin got a response in while I was typing. Interesting that the response was essentially the same, eh?

[Z3_GoCar]

Originally posted by Banzai240@Nov 14 2005, 03:50 PM
James,

The Rules Making process is outlined in the "Garage" section of the SCCA.com site...

As for making a class above ITS... Here's what I think it would take...

You guys who would commit to such a class need to write letters to the CRB in the form of classification requests for the cars in question. I'd personally do a seperate request for each car, which may be necessary anyhow since you need to fill out a VTS sheet for each one...

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Darin,

I've found the VTS sheet under-club racing/Vehicles and will fill one out for the Z3 2.8l as best as I can gather all the pertinant information.

Originally posted by Banzai240+Nov 14 2005, 03:50 PM-->

With that done, send them to the CRB, via the SCCA tech department with the appropriate request and data...

I think if we could show enough interest, we could get this done. We've already had to turn cars down because they could not be made to fit into ITS, so those would be back on the table as well and would be considered along with these requests...

Get started now! That would give us until next August to work out the details and see if we could put a package together that would fly...

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[/b]

Not this season but next, may be the best time frame for me also as I'll be able to work on my driving experience

<!--QuoteBegin-Banzai240@Nov 14 2005, 03:50 PM
Not sure about the weight, but when we&#39;ve played around with it, the E36 would come in in such a class at around 2700lbs... 300Z perhaps at 3050lbs, etc... It would all depend on the range of cars and what would seem like a reasonable target wt/pwr ratio for the class as a whole...

Write and we&#39;ll see what we can do... I don&#39;t think I&#39;m alone in thinking that this would be a wonderful idea and would WORK!

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As mentioned before the Z3 is in fact an E-36 with the older E-30 trailing arm suspension. In the BMW club the 328 and Z3 are both listed in the JP class, but the 328 is listed at 2995lbs and the Z3 2.8 is 2730lbs so 265lbs based on the chassis differences with the same basic engine.

James

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Z3_GoCar@Nov 15 2005, 02:17 AM
... but the 328 is listed at 2995lbs and the Z3 2.8 is 2730lbs so 265lbs based on the chassis differences with the same basic engine.

James

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So, which one is considered the better classified with the BMW club??

[Bill Miller]

Guys,

How many requests to classify cars that are deemed &#39;too fast&#39; have there been? Also, haviing the cars classed in SS and T should be more than enough interest and support. I&#39;m a firm believer, that when a car gets classed in SS, that the preliminary IT specs should be crafted as well. All the VTS info is there, should be pretty easy to plug it into the process. Couple that w/ the fact that most of the T3/SSB cars are outside the ITS performance envelope, and it would seem fairly obvious that ITR (or whatever the hell you want to call it) is needed. You want member supoort? Put a simple question out in the next FasTrack. Ask if people want an IT class above ITS. Have the center of the performance envelope defined, and throw out a couple of example cars.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 14 2005, 09:32 PM
Guys,

How many requests to classify cars that are deemed &#39;too fast&#39; have there been?

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IIRC, maybe 3 letters for 2 cars. Integra Type R just recently and a couple over the past few years for the NA 300ZX (222hp V6).

You think if we build it, they will come? Will they come from OUTSIDE of IT (SS?) or will we canibalize the current crop?

I think we design it over 2006 for a 2007 implementation.

AB

[lateapex911]

I agree, Bill, but.....

I would love to get a real handle on the "pent up demand".

A lot od SS and Touring guys won&#39;t race regionals, due to the stigma attached to it, or the quality of drivers or some other perceived reason, so just having the cars available doesn&#39;t mean they will actually show up.

Of course, NOT having a place for the car to go at the end of it&#39;s "National" life assures they will NOT race IT. I know that if I were thinking of going SS or Touring, having a place the car could race in the club racing structure after SS or Touring would ease my worries.

I spoke with a strong SS guy (and a very strong IT driver) at the ARRCs, and he told me he is selling his Honda SS car THIS year...and isn&#39;t sure what he will do...getting out while the getting is good, so to speak.

I hate when changes like that force people out. I know, racing is expensive, there are no guarantees, bla bla bla,....

So, agreed, there needs to be a cohesive big picture plan....I think a uber class is needed, but I worry about thin fields.

[Z3_GoCar]

Originally posted by Banzai240@Nov 14 2005, 07:28 PM
So, which one is considered the better classified with the BMW club??

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I know of only one other person currently running a Z3 in the wild West. Tom Bell runs his 2.8 in the JStock category and is seriously considering switching to a sedan. The main reason being the shorter wheel base and semi trailing arms make it less stable at high speeds, demanding more driving attention. The weight&#39;s the same irreguardless of prep level, so a JStock weighs the same as a JPrepared. Which is better classified, is hard to say, most people take the easy route and run a sedan that&#39;s less expensive to purchase initally. You probably know the drill. Starts as your street car that can be tracked and slowly turns into a dedicated track only car, and finally into a full on race car. I&#39;m off to fill in my VTS

James

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 15 2005, 02:32 AM
Ask if people want an IT class above ITS.

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Bill... I JUST did!

Please... If ever the ITAC deserved anything from you guys after the past couple of years, it&#39;d be TRUST! At least as far as knowing the process and what needs to be done to GET things DONE!

This upper class (ITU, if I get my way... ) has already been discussed with the CRB, a couple of times actually... so it&#39;s not a new idea... We already have a basic roster in place, but none of that is good enough to guage the actual interest in it...

Once we have a package together, THEN we can put it out for comment, but, as has been pointed out previously, members can&#39;t comment if they don&#39;t know what they are commenting on...

Anything like this that we decide to tackle WILL be put out for member comment, but to get things rolling, anyone who is interested should write us NOW! Get ahead of the system!

[Bill Miller]

Darin,

How about doing it in a more &#39;official&#39; manner? People have complained in the past about things not being put out &#39;for member input&#39;. Others have commented that this board is not really representative of the IT community.

Andy,

A couple of others that jump to mind are the E36 328 and the E30 M3, and I&#39;m sure there are others. Other cars that would probably fit are the Acura RSX-S, the new Civic Si, and probably just about anything that&#39;s classed in T3 (yep, get ready for those forced induction cars and the AWD cars).

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 15 2005, 03:55 AM
Darin,

How about doing it in a more &#39;official&#39; manner? People have complained in the past about things not being put out &#39;for member input&#39;. Others have commented that this board is not really representative of the IT community.

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Perhaps some show of interest could help grease the wheels in making this happen....

[racer_tim]

James, you can run your car in it&#39;s current state in San Francisco Region&#39;s ITE class. This is a regional only class, that as long as the car meets the IT safety requirements, it&#39;s a go.

From our Supps,

1. Any tub chassis production vehicle running with DOT Tires.

2. Preparation rules: International Sedans may modify the floor pan/rocker panel sections.

3. Cars must meet the Showroom Stock or IT safety requirements of the 2005 GCR.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo@Nov 15 2005, 08:41 AM
Perhaps some show of interest could help grease the wheels in making this happen....

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George,

IIRC, people have written letters in the past, requesting an addtional class. I don&#39;t have time right now to pour through the old FasTracks, but I&#39;m pretty sure they&#39;re in there. What else are you looking for?

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 15 2005, 10:07 AM
George,

IIRC, people have written letters in the past, requesting an addtional class. I don&#39;t have time right now to pour through the old FasTracks, but I&#39;m pretty sure they&#39;re in there. What else are you looking for?

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You are correct Bill. There were maybe 2 or 3 letters. I&#39;m sure it would take more apparent interest than that to get the CRB to float it in Fastrack, especially when we don&#39;t even know if it will increase participation or simply rob participation from other areas.

Now, you could correct say that if the members want it, then it shouldn&#39;t matter. However, the wants of the membership are certainly influenced strongly by letters received. Two to three letters doesn&#39;t show much interest. Now a dozen or more might start and sustain a conversation.

As for just putting it into Fastrack and seeing what happens, space in Fastrack is at a major premium right now as it is.

I&#39;m not trying to be negative Bill, or even contrarian. I&#39;m just trying to help suggest what may help and why.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Geo@Nov 15 2005, 10:43 AM
You are correct Bill. There were maybe 2 or 3 letters. I&#39;m sure it would take more apparent interest than that to get the CRB to float it in Fastrack, especially when we don&#39;t even know if it will increase participation or simply rob participation from other areas.

Now, you could correct say that if the members want it, then it shouldn&#39;t matter. However, the wants of the membership are certainly influenced strongly by letters received. Two to three letters doesn&#39;t show much interest. Now a dozen or more might start and sustain a conversation.

As for just putting it into Fastrack and seeing what happens, space in Fastrack is at a major premium right now as it is.

I&#39;m not trying to be negative Bill, or even contrarian. I&#39;m just trying to help suggest what may help and why.

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Rather than guess why not try to convince one of the Sports car writers to do an article on the need for new classes with a survey link to the Sports car website or the SCCA.com website? This will reach the most people and get the most direct answer.

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 15 2005, 10:55 AM
A couple of others that jump to mind are the E36 328 and the E30 M3, and I&#39;m sure there are others. Other cars that would probably fit are the Acura RSX-S, the new Civic Si, and probably just about anything that&#39;s classed in T3 (yep, get ready for those forced induction cars and the AWD cars).

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And some others:

94-95 Ford Mustang V8 (stock 215 hp, pushrod motor)
96-98 Ford Mustang V8 (stock 215hp, SOHC motor)
Nissan 300Z
Toyota Supra non-turbo,
99+ Ford Mustang V6 (stock 190 hp)
BMW E36 M3 95-99
BMW M Coupes

I&#39;ll build one of the above for the class, promise. Before someone cries foul on the V8 Mustangs as already being in AS and race one there if you like - remember, AS allows for a lot of prep (read the rules) that we don&#39;t have in IT and Mustangs are the heaviest cars on the list above.

R

R