Automatics in IT?

[Bill Miller]

Happened to go to a Mazda event today (Zoom Zoom Live, @ Raceway Park in NJ). They had several cars there to drive, all on a variety of Auto-X type courses. One of the things I noticed, in cars from the Mazda 3, to the new Miata, to the RX8, all of the automatics were what I refer to as 'auto sticks'. Essentially clutchless manuals.

I'm starting to see more and more of this kind of a transmission, on more and more cars. It can only be a matter of time before someone wants to run one in it. I was wondering what the general concensus was on allowing these types of transmissions, as well as what the ITAC folks could offer up, as far as if this is something that's already on the radar screen.

I also figured it would be a nice change of pace from BMW weights!!

[jc836]

Our Prelude had the SS-SportShift and it was very enjoyable to use on track at The Glen and Pocono. Very similar to the Proshe Tiptronic setup. The only thing I did notlike was that the torque convertor took a while to 'spool up' and the gearbox is essentially sequential. The computer control is nearly flawless. Our RSX has the 5speed version of the box and it is better. Overall I still prefer a true manual on track.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 5 2005, 03:21 PM
Happened to go to a Mazda event today (Zoom Zoom Live, @ Raceway Park in NJ). They had several cars there to drive, all on a variety of Auto-X type courses. One of the things I noticed, in cars from the Mazda 3, to the new Miata, to the RX8, all of the automatics were what I refer to as 'auto sticks'. Essentially clutchless manuals.

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I have no opinion on this at this time as it relates to IT, but I do want to point out that these are anything but clutchless manuals. They are slushboxes, pure and simple and the "shifting" is nothing more than we did as kids downshifting and upshifting our automatics. The clutchless manual this is pure marketing hype in almost every case. There are a few high end cars with F1 style manual gearboxes that have automatic rev matching and declutching. But as I said, those are rare.

[lateapex911]

Audis version is very cool, not a torque converter based system, and the ferrari/maser version is essentially some actuators pushing the clutch and pulling the lever. BMWs SMG is a legit version as well if I recall correctly. All very cool.......

In any case, my opinion is that we are here to test our skill in driving, team management, prep, and engineering against others.

I feel that allowing automatics of any sort (assuming the cars are classed to be competitive with the auto trans) is not in the spirit or best interest of IT. It takes away a skill set that isn't the easiest to learn, and I think removing it dilutes the sport.

Thats my opinion as far as IT is concerned. If you gave me the choice between the Ferrari F1 system and their traditional gated box, I would have to take test drive..and another ..and another....

[tcpip]

Being new to IT, I can't comment on whether automatics have a place in IT. I did want to point out that not all autos are created equal, and some may give an advantage over a manual shift gearbox. One of example is the VW DSG system. It's generally stated as being faster (0-60 times) than a manual shift. Also, with the paddle shifters, it would seem that's one more advantage this system has over a manual shift. Yes, it is sequential, so that's 1 disadvantage. My point is, I would avoid just stating that 'automatics are allowed' without looking at the systems individually.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo@Nov 5 2005, 05:04 PM
I have no opinion on this at this time as it relates to IT, but I do want to point out that these are anything but clutchless manuals. They are slushboxes, pure and simple and the "shifting" is nothing more than we did as kids downshifting and upshifting our automatics. The clutchless manual this is pure marketing hype in almost every case. There are a few high end cars with F1 style manual gearboxes that have automatic rev matching and declutching. But as I said, those are rare.

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George,

I beg to differ. These things are no where near what running a conventional 3 or 4 speed automatic up and down through the gears manually. Have you actually driven any of the new cars w/ these types of transmissions? Those Mazda boxes were far from a 'slush box'. As was pointed out, the new VW DSG is pretty damn slick. You should go test drive one.

[Joe Harlan]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 6 2005, 10:33 AM
George,

I beg to differ. These things are no where near what running a conventional 3 or 4 speed automatic up and down through the gears manually. Have you actually driven any of the new cars w/ these types of transmissions? Those Mazda boxes were far from a 'slush box'. As was pointed out, the new VW DSG is pretty damn slick. You should go test drive one.

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I am all for them as long as the car is classed with them, Our new renegade as an eaton 12spd autostick with a F1 style paddle shift and a 475hp mercedes. I can kick the backside off any old Peterbuilt anyday of the week through the gears....

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 6 2005, 01:57 PM
I can kink the ass off any old .........

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Please Joe, this is a family site..............

[charrbq]

The "auto sticks" of today are anything but the old style automatics. The only disadvantage I've seen is they only shift sequentially. Racing one would sort of be like racing with the anti lock brake system functioning. They might be fun for a track day, but in the heat of competition, I'd want to be making more of the decisions than the car.

In any case, I'm sure that the GCR would take precedence in classifying them as automatics and disallowing them.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 6 2005, 12:33 PM
George,

I beg to differ. These things are no where near what running a conventional 3 or 4 speed automatic up and down through the gears manually. Have you actually driven any of the new cars w/ these types of transmissions? Those Mazda boxes were far from a 'slush box'. As was pointed out, the new VW DSG is pretty damn slick. You should go test drive one.

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Bill, are they not all coupled to a torque converter? Are they meshed gears like on a manual gearbox?

[lateapex911]

To the best of my knowledge, the Audi, and the Maser/Ferrari, et al, and I would assume the VW (due to the corporate brother of Audi) are the rel deal...that is, they are meshed gears of some sort. (The Audi being a highly cool twim clutch setup, don't ask me how IT works, LOL)

I didn't think that Mazda had anything but a torque converter based system.

(Even those are getting pretty sophisicated thanks to high processing speeds and the more advance shifting schedules)

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Geo@Nov 6 2005, 10:22 PM
Bill, are they not all coupled to a torque converter? Are they meshed gears like on a manual gearbox?

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Yes, there are a few that are clutch based and actually shift just as you would. There are some cool technical articles on the AudiWorld site on this transmission.

But, George is right on the majority of them out there like in my wife's Volvo T5 and her old Audi A4. Simply standard automatic trannies with a easy way to go up and down through the gears coupled with computer control that makes the shift very smooth via spark reduction or other means.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo@Nov 6 2005, 06:22 PM
Bill, are they not all coupled to a torque converter? Are they meshed gears like on a manual gearbox?

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George,

If it's a lock-up torque convrter, what does it matter? I really suggest that you go out and drive one of these modern cars, before you discount them like that.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 6 2005, 08:49 PM
George,

If it's a lock-up torque convrter, what does it matter? I really suggest that you go out and drive one of these modern cars, before you discount them like that.

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I've driven a few of the Bill. They are still just slushboxes.

[Knestis]

Interesting question, this...

So the consensus is that they should be illegal because they are obviously both a huge competitive advantage and a lot slower than a manual, right? ;)

If I remember correctly, the ABS conversation boiled down to...

1. A really skilled driver is faster without ABS brakes than with
2. A wanker is faster with ABS than he would be without
3. We can't take skill away from the fast guys but nobody wants to give the wankers any advantage that they don't deserve
4. Since (A) most of us are somewhere between wanker and Randy Pobst, (B) not everyone has it, and © it provides some distinct advantages in some circumstances, then ABS should not be allowed

My bet is that a protracted conversation about automatic gearboxes (or auto-anything else, for that matter) will shake out pretty much the same...

K

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis@Nov 8 2005, 12:44 PM
Interesting question, this...

So the consensus is that they should be illegal because they are obviously both a huge competitive advantage and a lot slower than a manual, right?

If I remember correctly, the ABS conversation boiled down to...

1. A really skilled driver is faster without ABS brakes than with
2. A wanker is faster with ABS than he would be without
3. We can't take skill away from the fast guys but nobody wants to give the wankers any advantage that they don't deserve
4. Since (A) most of us are somewhere between wanker and Randy Pobst, ( not everyone has it, and © it provides some distinct advantages in some circumstances, then ABS should not be allowed

My bet is that a protracted conversation about automatic gearboxes (or auto-anything else, for that matter) will shake out pretty much the same...

K

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With the possible exception of the 'automatic mixture adjustment' afforded by a hopped-up ECU. :P

I personally think ABS should be allowed, and just another 'adder' thrown into the mix. I wonder if the ban on automatics, is due to the fact that somebody would spend mega-bucks to build what is essentially a sequential gearbox?

[Z3_GoCar]

Originally posted by Knestis@Nov 8 2005, 09:44 AM
Interesting question, this...

So the consensus is that they should be illegal because they are obviously both a huge competitive advantage and a lot slower than a manual, right?

If I remember correctly, the ABS conversation boiled down to...

1. A really skilled driver is faster without ABS brakes than with
2. A wanker is faster with ABS than he would be without
3. We can't take skill away from the fast guys but nobody wants to give the wankers any advantage that they don't deserve
4. Since (A) most of us are somewhere between wanker and Randy Pobst, ( not everyone has it, and © it provides some distinct advantages in some circumstances, then ABS should not be allowed

My bet is that a protracted conversation about automatic gearboxes (or auto-anything else, for that matter) will shake out pretty much the same...

K

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Quite interesting since one of my recent Bimmer Mags decried the death of the manual transmission as we know it to be replaced by SMG. The new 500hp M5 only comes SMG, as an example of where this is headed. I think this chassis and engine are eventually headed for ALMS. I agree that starting with a 100k car for a chassis would be extreme, but given trickle down I susposed that VW/Audi will go this route with BMW's 3-series. BMW's susposed to introduce a SMG II to replace the current unit, it'll have a double clutch simular to the Audi unit. I guess if IT doesn't address this eventually it will be come a vintage class, but thats 5-10 years off. As for the cheap SMG's, my wifes 330i has the 5speed step-tronic. In manual mode the shift isn't as fast as a good speed shift, but then again it doesn't over-rev like the M3/S54 SMG

James

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Originally posted by Z3_GoCar@Nov 8 2005, 11:38 PM
Quite interesting since one of my recent Bimmer Mags decried the death of the manual transmission as we know it to be replaced by SMG. The new 500hp M5 only comes SMG, as an example of where this is headed. I think this chassis and engine are eventually headed for ALMS. I agree that starting with a 100k car for a chassis would be extreme, but given trickle down I susposed that VW/Audi will go this route with BMW's 3-series. BMW's susposed to introduce a SMG II to replace the current unit, it'll have a double clutch simular to the Audi unit. I guess if IT doesn't address this eventually it will be come a vintage class, but thats 5-10 years off. As for the cheap SMG's, my wifes 330i has the 5speed step-tronic. In manual mode the shift isn't as fast as a good speed shift, but then again it doesn't over-rev like the M3/S54 SMG

James

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Over-revving isn't the problem with the S54. Poor manufacturing tolerances are why so many blew up.