Missing Horsepower...

[Greg Amy]

Andy, those two are the ones that immediately jump to mind, but you guys (ITAC) should have better experience with this issue. Think of the ones that give you fits, where you really can't seem to make a good choice of where to put them, or ones that beguile you due to cage and/or wheel issues.

I'm not talking about making EVERY car (or even a high number of cars) class-optional, only ones that don't seem to fit now. How many cars do you want to move into ITB from ITA (for example) but can't or won't because of cage and/or wheel issues? Those are the ones to focus on initially.

Once the idea is accepted, it could also be used to improve classification options for those cars on the extremes, regardless of wheels/cage. You guys are trying to tighten up the bell curves within each class, so you could consider making the outer 7.5% on the top and bottom tails of each class class-optional. This gives you the ability to focus the bell curves around 85% of the cars within each class. - GA

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 3 2005, 10:00 AM
Greg,

I am down. How many 'tweeners' do we have?

ITA RX-7 12A?
ITA MK2 MK1?

AB

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I am sure there are a bunch of them, just skim the itcs and you see cars that most likely have no chance in Ita. bmw 2002, some civics, capri ect. But I believe in the itac process. if the group runs the number on them I would guess a lot of cars could be identified that have no chance in A but might add to the dwindleing car counts in B. now some of the cars on this list are rare and old so maybe I would not spend lots of time on all of them.

[Jake]

I see absolutely no downside of this.

[RacerBill]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 2 2005, 05:34 PM
Wenches? You guys have wenches? Damn!!!

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How do you think they turn the nits and bilts? :119:

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 3 2005, 02:00 PM
Greg,

I am down. How many 'tweeners' do we have?

ITA RX-7 12A?
ITA MK2 MK1?

AB

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Andy,

.... I know this is an attempt to make things better. But please remember that not all RX7s are "tweeners" IMHO :angry: . The option to stay or switch sounds good to me.
.... What about the 94-95 GSLSE ? Will it be dropped from ITS and put in ITA? Seems only fair. I have one that just sits and collects dust because it is not competitive in ITS. But then again my 1st gen Rx7 can hold it's own in ITA.

..Far from being a "Tweener"
... Rick Thompson

[Bill Miller]

I'm not talking about making EVERY car (or even a high number of cars) class-optional, only ones that don't seem to fit now. How many cars do you want to move into ITB from ITA (for example) but can't or won't because of cage and/or wheel issues? Those are the ones to focus on initially.

I'm not trying to sound like a broken record on this, but if a car does or does not have to buy new wheels (7" -> 6") should have no bearing on moving the car from ITA to ITB. I support the concpet of class cross-over for tweeners with limitations (see my earlier comments), but the wheel issue is a personal choice. Don't muddy things up by including it in the discussion.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Hotshoe@Nov 3 2005, 02:14 PM
Andy,

.... I know this is an attempt to make things better. But please remember that not all RX7s are "tweeners" IMHO :angry: . The option to stay or switch sounds good to me.
.... What about the 94-95 GSLSE ? Will it be dropped from ITS and put in ITA? Seems only fair. I have one that just sits and collects dust because it is not competitive in ITS. But then again my 1st gen Rx7 can hold it's own in ITA.

..Far from being a "Tweener"
... Rick Thompson

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Rick,

Let's not get into this again. It is the ITAC's position that the 12A RX-7 is not in the same league as the current top cars in ITA (240SX, CRX, Integra). With all respect to your program and your outstanding success, we believe the data supports our position. I hope you attend the ARRC this year because it is my opinion that you and your program represent the best there is in ITA RX-7's.

Having said that, we could use your expertise on the 84-85 13B. What kind of power can it make? Estimates would put it in the 175 crank - 140/145whp range. That is 2550 weight territory without consideration for any other factors.
Thoughts?

AB

[JeffYoung]

2550 for ITA? That would be a good fit I think, give Mazda a car at the front of A.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 3 2005, 03:57 PM
Rick,

Let's not get into this again. It is the ITAC's position that the 12A RX-7 is not in the same league as the current top cars in ITA (240SX, CRX, Integra). With all respect to your program and your outstanding success, we believe the data supports our position. I hope you attend the ARRC this year because it is my opinion that you and your program represent the best there is in ITA RX-7's.

Having said that, we could use your expertise on the 84-85 13B. What kind of power can it make? Estimates would put it in the 175 crank - 140/145whp range. That is 2550 weight territory without consideration for any other factors.
Thoughts?

AB

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Andy,

From what I've been hearing you and Darin say, I'm under the impression that the top ITA cars may be getting some lead X-mas presents this year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you guys talking about bringing cars closer to the middle? You've said that the ITA top-dogs (240, CRX, Integra) are not the benchmarks.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 3 2005, 04:26 PM
Andy,

From what I've been hearing you and Darin say, I'm under the impression that the top ITA cars may be getting some lead X-mas presents this year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you guys talking about bringing cars closer to the middle? You've said that the ITA top-dogs (240, CRX, Integra) are not the benchmarks.

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It's all pie-in-the-sky until the BoD approves it.

AB

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 3 2005, 08:26 PM
It's all pie-in-the-sky until the BoD approves it.

AB

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Then it becomes lead-under-the-tree.......

or the passenger seat...

sorry, couldn't resist a bad joke..

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 3 2005, 07:57 PM
Rick,

Let's not get into this again. It is the ITAC's position that the 12A RX-7 is not in the same league as the current top cars in ITA (240SX, CRX, Integra). With all respect to your program and your outstanding success, we believe the data supports our position. I hope you attend the ARRC this year because it is my opinion that you and your program represent the best there is in ITA RX-7's.

Having said that, we could use your expertise on the 84-85 13B. What kind of power can it make? Estimates would put it in the 175 crank - 140/145whp range. That is 2550 weight territory without consideration for any other factors.
Thoughts?

AB

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Andy,

.....I'm not trying to "Stir the Pot". I hope I can be part of the solution.

......I am going to the ARRC this year. I have planned on it all season, and have run a few races there this year trying to get some track time.

......Do you know Mark Carpenter? He drives an Acura Integra in ITA in the NARRC . I met him this past weekend @ VIR. We ran the race together and I was able to get a good feel for the difference between the two cars.

......So now he will be at the ARRC and I hope to get some track time with him so I can compare the two courses with the same cars and drivers. See, at VIR we were within a second of each other the entire race. But I don't think that will be the outcome at Road Atlanta.

......I do not know what the numbers are for the 13B but I can find out from my engine builder.

[Turfer]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 3 2005, 08:26 PM
Andy,

From what I've been hearing you and Darin say, I'm under the impression that the top ITA cars may be getting some lead X-mas presents this year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you guys talking about bringing cars closer to the middle? You've said that the ITA top-dogs (240, CRX, Integra) are not the benchmarks.

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Popular rumor coming out of Oregon is look for 200+ pounds added to the CRX/Civic. 225 is the number I heard put forth for a race weight of 2375/2410. It seems excessive to me. Especially considering the new additions have not had a proper chance to show what they can accomplish with a top build and a good driver.

I hear similar gains for the Integra and 240sx putting them in the field at racing weights around 2700lbs.

If any of the rumors I am hearing come to bear fruit then ITA will quickly become dominated by the Miata. Which, if I throw on my tin foil hat, would suit SCCA corporate just fine.

Rick--Who hopes that the whatever changes come along that it does not upset the great ITA fields and racing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Turfer@Nov 12 2005, 03:02 PM
Popular rumor coming out of Oregon is look for 200+ pounds added to the CRX/Civic. 225 is the number I heard put forth for a race weight of 2375/2410. It seems excessive to me. Especially considering the new additions have not had a proper chance to show what they can accomplish with a top build and a good driver.

I hear similar gains for the Integra and 240sx putting them in the field at racing weights around 2700lbs.

If any of the rumors I am hearing come to bear fruit then ITA will quickly become dominated by the Miata. Which, if I throw on my tin foil hat, would suit SCCA corporate just fine.

Rick--Who hopes that the whatever changes come along that it does not upset the great ITA fields and racing.

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Well, those are just what you said they were - RUMORS. I have the recommendations in front of me, and you are off by 125 pounds in some cases. All the moves are backed by the 'process' and will make sense. Let's not get crazy over stupid - and unfounded rumors.

BTW: The 1.6 Miata is on the list to gain weight as well. Go paint your black helicopter a different color.

AB

[Turfer]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 12 2005, 08:14 PM
Well, those are just what you said they were - RUMORS. I have the recommendations in front of me, and you are off by 125 pounds in some cases. All the moves are backed by the 'process' and will make sense. Let's not get crazy over stupid - and unfounded rumors.

BTW: The 1.6 Miata is on the list to gain weight as well. Go paint your black helicopter a different color.

AB

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Thanks Andy. A 100 pounds seems pretty reasonable to me. Especially, since my driving suits keep shrinking each winter.

I am glad to hear some weight gain for the Miata as well. I have been left wondering how much faster a SM can go with a proper .040 over IT motor, ECU tuning, and Hooisers.

I am an ITA guy. We can only afford tin foil for hats. It's the ITS guys that have all the helcopters. :P

Rick

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Turfer@Nov 12 2005, 04:02 PM
Thanks Andy. A 100 pounds seems pretty reasonable to me. Especially, since my driving suits keep shrinking each winter.

I am glad to hear some weight gain for the Miata as well. I have been left wondering how much faster a SM can go with a proper .040 over IT motor, ECU tuning, and Hooisers.

I am an ITA guy. We can only afford tin foil for hats. It's the ITS guys that have all the helcopters. :P

Rick

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I hear this fear a lot on the Miata. Here are a few issues to chew on:

In SM, they run in packs. They bump draft, they take advantage of the fact that they don't slow each other down because there is enough of them to have their own run group. Their times are there peak.

When you see guys cross over an SM into ITA, they typically go slower in that race than they do in theor own run group. That is because they get held up in corners and don't have the power to make it up...it's a total momentum car.

In IT, you won't see them bump drafting another make of car. They may qualify well when given a clear track, but when you have a faster car on the straight, it has a terrible time getting by. They don't race well. ONly a 10/10th example will have a shot - and that is how it should be.

AB