Camber Plate Poll

[Bildon]

Please vote using the buttons above and then you can discussed these other topics.

Now let's define 'well designed'.

Do you need caster adjustment?
Do you need more than 2 deg. of adjustment beyond your "fixed" neg. camber adjustment?
Do you want simple steel (Carerra) or pretty aluminum with degree markings?
Will you consider cutting your strut top 'lips' to facilitate a larger more adjustable plate?
Should the plate be designed to fit universally or should there be numerou$ de$ign$ for multiple model$?
What is the diameter of your strut shaft/threads where they would pass through the bearing?
And any other relative and constructive ideas you might have...

[JLawton]

Don't need pretty, but I'm sure it's important with the import crowd. Don't need caster.

I would think the option of more than 2 degrees would be good....

Cutting the strut tower would make it more difficult for the guys like me who don't have the welding equipment to do that....

Degree markings for an IT car???? One hit/roll and those marks are useless, although it would make things a lot easier.

Ease of adjustment would be nice. I have to jack the car up a little and use a hammer............


I'm no expert though.........

[Bildon]

Excellent. I was hoping for these results. That's a price that a good plate can be made at. How about all the other details... Anyone have any must have features?

Especially the cutting of the top lip. Yea or Nea?
It's really quite easy. Just drill out the spot welds and you can pound the 'cone" portion of the tower that sticks up right out with a mallet, resulting in a nice flat area for plate mounting.

http://www.bildon.com/pub/cstrut1.jpg

http://www.bildon.com/pub/cstrut2.jpg

http://www.bildon.com/pub/cstrut3.jpg

[vwmann1]

Seems like we are all in the same gereral price range. Steel is fine with me. Don't need fancy markings. I will say caster adjustment is very important to me. If these did not have caster it would be a deal breaker and force me to GC and more money. I would weld mine in but I would say it would be best to have them both boltable and weldable. I have no problem cutting the car. 2 degrees seems like more than enough.

I will be watching this thread very closely since I will be buying them in the next four months.

[vwmann1]

Just looked at the pics. The last one looks like a set of plates that also had height adjustment that I saw on an EVO. Bill if you are planing on adding that to the mix it would be awsome.

[Knestis]

I'm less worried about bling than about it not getting all corroded and crappy when I race in the rain.

Caster would be useful, I think but lack thereof isn't a show-stopper.

Markings are nice, once installed, but it's a little optimistic to believe that they represent actual degrees at the wheel. I say, engrave a scale on there so I can figure out what settings give me what angle and call it good.

I can't see needing more than a couple of degrees of adjustment.

My struts fit in the stock upper bearings (the big MkIII style).

It seems important to me that they not rely on an inside circlip or fiddly little lip to hold the car up, whatever kind of bearing is used.

I'm TOTALLY fine with cutting the lip but it would be nice if they bolted in, so they can be moved when the idiot driver wads up the car...

K

[VW16VRacer]

Bill

Not so much bling but strong is the key. I am running the BSI weld in plates that are 1/8 inch steel plates. Heavy but very strong. Do your rally guys use camber plates? I would think if they could stand up to that punishment then road racers should be ok.

I agree with Kirk, give me some scribe marks but no numbers.

Caster is very important to me, I currently run 4 deg caster and love it, I can adjust from camber from 0 to almost -3.75 deg camber. I use -2 to -2.5 on most tracks in the Pacific NW. Cutting the strut tower is the only way to get more useable caster. Not that big of a deal as stated in your pictures.

I am running Koni yellows that have the same shaft dia (thread size) as the OE strut.

Keep it simple, I think you can come up with one plate that will fit Mk1-Mk5 cars. Remember the new Audi A3 is based on the Golf-Jetta platform, just another market for you to explore.

Work on the pivot point bearing. BSI plates bind a bit in this department and I have had to modify mine a bit to make them work long term. Serviceable parts that are available should be a must.

BTW I hear that Santa is bringing me one of your 020 clutch pack diffs. I will e-mail you soon.

Jon Bonforte

[racer_tim]

I agree with Kirk. Make them bolt in, so you can move them to another vehicle easier.

Here is a shot of my camber plates. No cutting, just drilled a couple of more holes

http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/2002...mber-plate.jpg

I do have to run a 6" spring in the front since I took up some additional space, but .....

[theenico]

I think anything under $300/pair would be good. I would do steel so people can weld them if they want.

Here's a couple of pictures of the plates I made for my '83 Scirocco.

[Bildon]

Bildon Adjustable Camber Plates, cont.

OK here is our first prototype. We're not locked into this design by any means. We want your feedback.


A few notes on why we went with what we did...

- Keeping a set under the target $ you set looks very probable. ~$225
- Aluminum plate. Much easier to machine and that keeps costs down. Corrosion is less of a factor.
- Steel bearing carrier for strength. Bearing load supported by steel race and NOT by circlip. (should have provision for multiple bearing sizes)
- Scribe marks without numbers
- Stainless hardware
- Final plate shape TBD. Will try to fit all VW chassis.

Not shown. Jon, taking your advice and next Prototype may have a thin thrust bearing between bearing carrier and plate to allow no bind adjustment.
Bearing longevity is a concern however. Perhaps a Delrin/Nylatron or simlar sheet?

Castor may be adjusted by slotting the strut top mouting holes or we are considering slotting the alumnum plate. This will require a larger plate however which will decrease the amount of static caster available if it were to be a fixed (non-adj) mount.

Let's hear your thoughts...

[Knestis]

Email sent.

Caster slots would be cool but maybe it's a good compromise to just build them with a known, conservative amount of caster, based on mounting bolt offset and mount hole placement?

I got word from KONI that my struts survived the TN roll without damage so some suspension questions are being answered. These camber plates fit the OE-size strut top mounts?

K

[VW16VRacer]

Agree with Kirk here, some known caster lines to make measurements while installing. Otherwise Bill I will buy them "when" I will need them. Got some bling in them too.....they look great, weight, material, cost yet?

I currently run the BSI weld in plates, heavy but very strong! The only way I see needing to "replace" them would to pull a Kirk and replace the chassis. Warm up a 020 clutch pack diff in a box, I will be calling soon.

Have a great Holiday season.

Jon

[VW16VRacer]

Bill one more question, It looks like you mount from below the strut tower, can this camber plate be mounted to the top of the strut tower and have a 1" spacer made out of some space aged ultra lightweight illegal substace that would be made by only the finest CNC machine available?

Did I vote for the 200-250 range?????

Just a question???

Jon

Edit: Bill after sleeping on it I wanted to let you know that the no bind adjustment might have a adverse effect. I notice when I adjust my BSI plates, with the weight of the car on them, and add neg camber, a prybar and a light tap from a hammer is all that is needed to make that adjustment. Now taking camber out of the car is a different story. I have to jack the car up, pull the strut out further than necessary, let the car back down, settle the suspension, measure and then add neg camber back into the strut to the desired reading. Now if there was a no bind in this (the BSI) plate when I went to loosen the top two nuts the strut would just go slip to its most neg position.That would be a huge pain in the ass to try and make a adjustment, hold the camber tool and not let the strut slip at the same time. So a bit of tension between the plate and the upper bearing is heplfull. Now this might be a bit of a design problem but a adjusting bolt running from the adjusting plate/bearing the strut is fixed to and the blue plate would be nice for me.Turn the bolt one way adds camber, turn it the other takes camber out. A Delrin sheet may have just the perfect amount of tension but enough slip to make adjustments easy. Would you crush the sheet over time? Might just have to go to prototype and beta test before you know the answers. I would love to see at least the poss of 4deg of caster, I think the factory used between 1.5 and 2. I currently use 4 and love the way the car handles on higher speed tracks. I can have 16th total toe out and the car doesn't wander nearly as bad as other Golfs I have driven with 2 deg of caster. I would love to be able to adjust the caster but it is not completly necessary if you need to sacrafice strength or increase cost. I can measure it as I am building the strut tower and fix it at that time. How about some really good install instructions and pictures so the average racer can install them without a alignment/body shop having to do the work to get it right. I bet with some help from Tim L, Greg A, Kirk K we could come up with instructions that even NASA could understand.... :119:

[Bildon]

Yes these will mount under the strut tower. Dont we all use proper, shorter race shocks?

>> Turn the bolt one way adds camber, turn it the other takes camber out.
Too much extra machining and parts required. Plus you should take the weight off the car to make adjustments. Camber thrust

Don't forget that all A1-A3 VWs have this function at the hub carrier mount. It's the way it was designed to be adjusted. Use it to "rough in" a camber, mark it, then leave it alone if you use upper plates for fine tuning.

re: Caster, you probably want to mount the upper strut mount/camber plate as far back as you can get it. And you wont want to adjust it. In the A2 chassis I believe you get about 5 degrees before the spring comes in contact with the strut tower. For those of you with PS you'll be fine. For those without, you have a little trouble pushing it around the paddock but once up to a walking pace it will steer just fine.

[VW16VRacer]

Camber thrust yea good point.

I thought the adjusting bolt would be a problem, just a thought.

Hopefully we all do use shortened struts, with that said and with out a lot of hype from the rule nerds, if you can lower the body one inch by a spacer in between the camber plate and the strut tower you will be able to get more useable strut stroke. It would require mounting the camber plate on the top side of the tower with the spacer bolted through to the tower. I am just asking if the mounting plate will be able to take the pounding without the strut tower holding it from above. If the camber plate can take it then can the hardware.

Jon

[lateapex911]

Jon- I've been watching this thread and thinking the same thing...but I am not a VW guy....

But your rules nerd comment got my attention...why would the above the strut tower arrangement run into rules iissues???

[VW16VRacer]

Jake

Actually I do not race IT In SCCA here in the PNW. The SCCA IT camp here has about 4 cars in it. I race a different club that has a lot more competition for me. My car is built almost to IT rules, and not knowing the GCR like the back of my hand, everytime I bring something up it seems to cause a sh*# storm ie: shortened axles just to name one. It is going to be my disclamer from her on out.

ICSCC, SCCA and NASA camps are all trying to get along here.

Jon

[DENNISC020]

Bill
Do you have any idea when your plates might be available ?

[Bildon]

Originally posted by DENNISC020@Jan 2 2006, 01:48 PM
Bill
Do you have any idea when your plates might be available ?

[snapback]69827[/snapback]

Dennis,
It's going to be months.
I have to get the design finalized, then make CAD files, send those to the machinists and do a sample run. Then we start production. All this while trying to start a new business...We're looking at late spring. Kirk, you get yours earlier

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Bildon@Jan 2 2006, 01:05 PM
... Kirk, you get yours earlier

Perk of being a Team Bildon factory ride.

Another design issue might relate to strut rod shaft diameters. The bearings in my temporary parts (thanks again, Bill!) are larger than the same-as-stock rod threads on my KONIs. I don't actually know how many variations there might be on the market but sleeves/spacers/whatever might address this, as would different bearing options.

K