new weight for rx7 in ITS?

[mlytle]

soo, given all the track records set by rx7's this year, the final florida standings and the general dominance of these cars lately, what is the general concensus on how much extra weight the itac will recommend this overdog has to carry for next year?

[TBreu007]

100lbs...150lbs for number 66

[bodyshop]

Originally posted by mlytle@Oct 26 2005, 02:09 AM
soo, given all the track records set by rx7's this year, the final florida standings and the general dominance of these cars lately, what is the general concensus on how much extra weight the itac will recommend this overdog has to carry for next year?

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Since it is impossible to use lap times and results as a sole indicator of performance potential, I doubt that there will be any recommendation of an increase due to this "dominance".

<stepping up on the soapbox>
If you are refering to the final standings in CFR, look at the numbers of RX7&#39;s vs. the rest of the ITS field. Look at the number of times the BMW&#39;s and Integra&#39;s DNF&#39;e dor DNS&#39;ed. Also, if you will notice, the ITS regional Champion for CFR accomplished this goal with consistency, not outright wins. I don&#39;t think Rob had any wins this season. He was at every race, and was almost always near the front. After totalling his car at Daytona, he devoted every waking hour to building another car in three weeks. That is the type of Champion I respect-and NOT because he had a dominate car. That is not to even mention the other "battles" he has endured during this season and his life.

Instead, how about a congratulatory post for a man who won a championship this year?
<soapbox mode OFF>

If you weren&#39;t refering to CFR, I apologize in advance if I seem defensive.

Bodyshop Fred...

[its66]

Originally posted by TBreu007@Oct 26 2005, 02:15 AM
100lbs...150lbs for number 66

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Hey Tim,
why all the hate?? Besides, I&#39;m already 92 lbs overweight as it is. (yes, 2772 with 5 gallons). And leave the fat jokes at home skinny boy. :P

Are you bringing that cheater piston powered thing of yours to the Turkey trots? Wait till you see the new and improved 66. It may be slow, but she looks good.

email me with an update on the 240.

[Catch22]

Lets wait until after the ARRC.
If a bunch of RX7s dominate there, we&#39;ll discuss...

[JeffYoung]

Marshall, how about a trade:

1. Your BMW gets a restrictor that gives 170 rwhp and 130 rw tq.

2. The RX7s get 200 lbs.

Fair deal?

[dickita15]

I was and still am in favor of PCAs in IT, even though ot has been decided by the ITAC that my particular car will not be able to benifit from them, but this conversation is the down side of that process. we sound like a bunch of Prod driver which was my greatest fear about PCAs.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by mlytle@Oct 25 2005, 10:09 PM
soo, given all the track records set by rx7&#39;s this year, the final florida standings and the general dominance of these cars lately, what is the general concensus on how much extra weight the itac will recommend this overdog has to carry for next year?

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I would be glad to consider this a real point should you provide some real data. Seems as if your Florida example isn&#39;t so valid...no wins but a Championship through consistancy? THAT is so far from an overdog it isn&#39;t funny.

For every NER (where there are no killer BMW&#39;s), there is a WDCR (where there are no killer RX-7&#39;s). I truely believe that there are pockets of killer cars based around top prep shops. FOM in the NE, BimmerWorld in the VA area, and SpeedSource/ISC in the SE.

Chet gonna run the ARRC? Our best RX-7 is headed down.

AB

[Ron Earp]

The RX7s are dominant in the SE, as long as the top running BMWs don&#39;t show up. And, the top running Z cars. And top running 240s. Throw in the big ITS BMWs from certain people and you can forget it, the BMWs win and win by a large margin.

I like Jeff&#39;s idea. That would make the weights equal and the power equal. Surely the BMW crowd won&#39;t mind that.

[robits325is]

Originally posted by Catch22@Oct 25 2005, 10:47 PM
Lets wait until after the ARRC.
If a bunch of RX7s dominate there, we&#39;ll discuss...

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I thought results didn&#39;t matter?

[lateapex911]

lets define "dominant"

dominant is NOT a championship won thru second place finishes....

dominant IS a car that, because of it&#39;s physical properties, can win over all others when it is well prepped and well driven..... over all other well prepped and well driven examples of other cars.

when it boils down to the cars properties, THAT is where it is considered dominant.

[mlytle]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 26 2005, 10:49 AM
I would be glad to consider this a real point should you provide some real data. Seems as if your Florida example isn&#39;t so valid...no wins but a Championship through consistancy? THAT is so far from an overdog it isn&#39;t funny.

For every NER (where there are no killer BMW&#39;s), there is a WDCR (where there are no killer RX-7&#39;s). I truely believe that there are pockets of killer cars based around top prep shops. FOM in the NE, BimmerWorld in the VA area, and SpeedSource/ISC in the SE.

Chet gonna run the ARRC? Our best RX-7 is headed down.

AB

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what, you want a list of all the track records? look them up...well you don&#39;t have to, you know them all. how about the oct 15 race at nelson ledges. guy shows up with an rx7 and drops the track record by 1.5seconds, without ever having been at the track before. he also won both races with 10sec+ margins. the previous track record holder was in the race and this was against at least two very good bmw&#39;s who had raced there before. one of those bmw&#39;s was the car that finished second in the marrs series. the other bmw will be at the arrc.

what is not so valid about the florida example? rx7&#39;s dominate the series. consistency is part of the equation. bruce runs in that group and apparently he isn&#39;t keeping up with the rx7&#39;s.

and apparently you guys have no sense of humor. i started this thread as kind of a half joke to offset the "add weight to the e36" thread.... :P

looking forward to watching the arrc its race. i&#39;ll be racing an rx7...srx7 though..

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by mlytle@Oct 26 2005, 09:08 PM
what, you want a list of all the track records? look them up...well you don&#39;t have to, you know them all. how about the oct 15 race at nelson ledges. guy shows up with an rx7 and drops the track record by 1.5seconds, without ever having been at the track before. he also won both races with 10sec+ margins. the previous track record holder was in the race and this was against at least two very good bmw&#39;s who had raced there before. one of those bmw&#39;s was the car that finished second in the marrs series. the other bmw will be at the arrc.

what is not so valid about the florida example? rx7&#39;s dominate the series. consistency is part of the equation. bruce runs in that group and apparently he isn&#39;t keeping up with the rx7&#39;s.

and apparently you guys have no sense of humor. i started this thread as kind of a half joke to offset the "add weight to the e36" thread.... :P

looking forward to watching the arrc its race. i&#39;ll be racing an rx7...srx7 though..

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That Nelson example is a good one. Now let&#39;s make sure it&#39;s a legal car. We have the same issue right now with another Make/Model in ITB - a car crushing competition lately has us looking hard but many question it&#39;s legality. You can&#39;t base a decision on one illegal car. May not be in this case, but the point had to be made.

The Florida example is not valid at all. Consistancy has NOTHING to do with dominance. If a different E36 won every race and this RX-7 finished 2nd at each race, it would still win the Championship. It&#39;s totally Apples to Oranges. The best RACER and/or race program (for that year) won that Championship - it wasn&#39;t dominated by a car.

I have no sense of humor on topics like this - especially when you don&#39;t use a smiley. We have received letters basically accusing us of inappropriate actions, bias and the like - on this topic - all from E36 owners. Nobody else.

It&#39;s simple MATH people, with results and data to back it up.

AB

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by robits325is@Oct 26 2005, 09:22 AM
I thought results didn&#39;t matter?

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Of course they do. BUT:

1. You have to understand the results (context and trending)
2. They are just SUPPORTING data, not primary influencers.

If we ran 10 cars through our process for a given class, and one started to dominate, we would...

1. Verify the numbers
2. Look for some factor we missed
3. Talk to competitors
4. Seek trends
5. Learn as much as we could about extenuating circumstances

...and hopefully do nothing. It isn&#39;t about penalizing winners. It&#39;s about making sure there are no inequities. If our proposal gets accepted at the BoD level, you will see weight come off some cars and weight go on some cars - and some cars get reclassed...all in an effort to run cars through the &#39;process&#39; and start with a new, clean, level slate.

AB

[mlytle]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 27 2005, 01:28 AM
We have received letters basically accusing us of inappropriate actions, bias and the like - on this topic - all from E36 owners. Nobody else.


AB

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and this is in any way surprising? the e36 is the one being attacked. do you think owners of other cars are going to complain?

[lateapex911]

Well, lets talk math....

keeping things simple,, lets start with some basic facts...

a LEGAL RX-7 (Speedsouce prepped) can make 180 and 130tq at the wheels....

to the E36 guys, what does a LEGAL full tilt Bimmerworld or (insert the best shop name you know here) make at the wheels, hp and tq?

Then we can do some math.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by mlytle@Oct 26 2005, 09:41 PM
and this is in any way surprising? the e36 is the one being attacked. do you think owners of other cars are going to complain?

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It&#39;s surprising because it&#39;s all being done on the up and up - using the same process and factors we use for EVERY OTHER CLASS and CAR. Some of these letter writers simply can&#39;t see outside their own back yard.

All I ask for is a full understanding of the subject matter before anyone ACCUSES me of inpropriety.

Oh, and your use of the word "attacked" is a prime example. You aren&#39;t being attacked in ANY WAY. If you can&#39;t see that, we have to agree to disagree.

AB

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 26 2005, 09:35 PM
........ If our proposal gets accepted at the BoD level, you will see weight come off some cars and weight go on some cars -
AB

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If the proposal goes through, it will be interesting to see the rections of other, "attacked" owners....

Oh...Andy...I almost forgot....did the E36 actually make that list????

[Catch22]

Originally posted by robits325is@Oct 26 2005, 01:22 PM
I thought results didn&#39;t matter?

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As a "final determination?"
No. The ITAC says results don&#39;t matter and I believe them.

But, I do find it interesting when stuff happens like one of those "dominant" RX7s comes up against one of those "dominant" 325s. So far, every time I&#39;ve seen this happen, the RX7 ended up far less than dominant.

Both Chet and Larry are preregistered for the ARRC. Along with John Williams (and I&#39;m assuming he&#39;ll be in his 240, but it was wrecked earlier this year so I really don&#39;t know) and several other really good cars.
Basically, what we&#39;ve seen for a few years. Nothing has beaten an orange BMW yet unless it just plain broke. Maybe this year&#39;s ARRC will be different, but given that Chet ran a 40 flat in July, when it was about 95 degrees, I wouldn&#39;t bet the farm on it.

As mentioned, "Dominant" is relative.
If you try to just use the word "dominant" in terms of track records and performances at the ARRC or the NARRC, the results often change over those just in a particular region.
Example... The ITC car that will easily win the SEDIV Enduro championship lost to my car 4 out of 5 races head to head. So how did they win? Well, they did more races and we had one DNF in that 5th head to head race.
Now... Which car was "dominant?"
Well?
Certainly it isn&#39;t the car that didn&#39;t win the championship and certainly it isn&#39;t the car that lost 4 of 5 times.
Then answer is... When your criteria is that narrow, you can&#39;t get an answer.

Scott, who points out that the "dominant" performer in any given region can change with something as simple as a company transfer.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by dickita15@Oct 26 2005, 10:40 AM
I was and still am in favor of PCAs in IT, even though ot has been decided by the ITAC that my particular car will not be able to benifit from them, but this conversation is the down side of that process. we sound like a bunch of Prod driver which was my greatest fear about PCAs.

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Amen, Senor Dickita (cha, cha, cha!)

In all seriousness, the ITAC has so far been able to resist this but we need to be VERY worried about this situation. As long as PCAs are applied based on physical attributes of the cars, we are OK but the very first time someone petitions for, and gets, an allowance simply because there&#39;s a perception that they can&#39;t compete, we are doomed.

Similarly, to the extent that superior attributes translate into better lap times, more wins, etc., on-track performance may be an INDICATOR of potential inequities but PCAs should NEVER be applied based on "competitiveness" or a lack thereof.

K

PS - Touche, by the way, Marshall. A couple of folks were effectively pronged by the irony here, even if I understand how their senses of humor are pretty battered at this point. It&#39;s never a bad idea to lighten up, even if the humor&#39;s a little pointed.