Rules Nerd Brain Teaser # 1...

[RSTPerformance]

Ok... All your Rules Nerds

As a Steward In Training this past year I have worked with a number of stewards at Mid-Ohio, Nelson Ledges, Beaver Run, Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, and NHIS. At each of these events I met stewards from other regions all over the country. Some are bigger rules nerds than others, but I can say the most important thing I learned (that sometimes we forget) is that ALL of the stewards that I met are volunteering their time to make our races safe and fun for all. My experience so far proved to be a very very interesting where I have to admit I learned a lot more than I thought I would. I was tested with a lot of interesting scenarios, both in actual protests as well as "what if's."

sooo... With that I figure I will sporadically give you all a few challenges that might bring up some interesting conversations. One thing to remember is that these teasers are based on the current GCR at the time of the original postings


This question is one that I have herd drivers ask at drivers meeting in my 20+ years of attending them. The question came to me from one of my favorite stewards, as a test...

Can you work on your car during a black flag all? Specifically where in the GCR is this covered?

Raymond "No Stephen and Jeremy Sheppard you are not allowed to respond!!!" Blethen

PS: I forgot, I said this was a contest... Any of our favorite businesses that visit this site want to sponsor a small prize??? If not I will think of something cheep like a shot glass from Lime Rock or something... LOL

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is a tough one. I can't find it specifically but here goes:

Black flag all: everyone into the "hot pit"

Hot Pit is defined in 10.1.1. I make the connection that during a BFA, this is not considered "Track Time" (meaning all racing, qualifying or practicing has halted) and therefor make cars and crews ineligble to be making changes/repairs.

AB

[Gary L]

Can you work on your car during a black flag all? Specifically where in the GCR is this covered?

The answer is "yes". Specifically, you are allowed to change tires. This is covered in "Rules of the Road" paragraph 9.3 - Rain Racing Procedure. BTW, I am not a steward, nor a steward in training, nor a rules nerd. But it took about 1 minute to find the answer above... the electronic version of the GCR has a very efficient search function.

[RSTPerformance]

Andy/Greg... I like your very different answers... but one is incorrect and one doesn't reference anything that would support your case, so you both have so far fallen short of winning...

Greg... A simple search with electronic text wont work... I am young, I know those tricks

Andy... If you can't work on your car when you are not engaged in "Track Time" then how do you "prep" the car after practice and before the race starts???

Raymond "hummmm" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance@Oct 20 2005, 10:05 AM
Andy/Greg... I like your very different answers... but one is incorrect and one doesn't reference anything that would support your case, so you both have so far fallen short of winning...

Greg... A simple search with electronic text wont work... I am young, I know those tricks

Andy... If you can't work on your car when you are not engaged in "Track Time" then how do you "prep" the car after practice and before the race starts???

Raymond "hummmm" Blethen

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You do it in the paddock. The way I read the rules (obviously the 'wrong' of the answers), you can work on the car in the hot pits - and the pits are not 'hot' during a BFA.

Gary's answer would seem to be correct - only during a DECLARED rain race - and your question doesn't seem to ask it that way...

NERDS UNITE!!!

AB

[RSTPerformance]

Bastards...

Gary's answer could be right for a Rain Race... but changing the tires is not what I ment in the statement of "working on the car."

As for Andy's answer, I never said you had the wrong answer... Keep trying.

don't get fustrated... but I am going to wait a bit before I reply again... I want others to chime in on this with thier opinions... FYI, I am not going to give the answer till after I get back from Lime Rock, that way people who have already left for the NARRC have a chance also to reply.

Raymond "Thier is an answer that is "Black and White" within the GCR, but it is not just Black " Blethen

[joeg]

Since I have no crew and my tools are too far awayfrom the pits, the answer is "no".

I may not be a steward, but I have slept at a Holiday Inn Express and have been tempted to work on my car during a BFA.

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by joeg@Oct 20 2005, 10:51 AM
Since I have no crew and my tools are too far awayfrom the pits, the answer is "no".

I may not be a steward, but I have slept at a Holiday Inn Express and have been tempted to work on my car during a BFA.

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LMAO

Raymond

[JohnRW]

Since I don't have a GCR handy, I'll just take a crack at it...

"No".

And the "No" would still be a "No" if you "retired to the paddock" in an enduro which allowed "retirement to the paddock and then return to the track". BFA = Black Flag ALL.

The same would be true under "Red Flag" conditions, too (just to throw an additional complication in there).

(JW...an SIT...who will probably STILL be an SIT when Raymond get his Nat'l Chief Stewards license)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well a RF would mean the session is OVER. No need to work on your car at that point.

You can't go to the paddock and come back either...10.1.8 unless it says you can in the supps...

AB

[Matt Rowe]

Here's my take:

Under 7.7 - Restarts:

"No replenishment or assistance to cars shall be allowed after a race is stopped and before it is restarted."

Backed up by 9.4.2.F Black Flag All
"Practice/qualifying/racing has stopped"

So the answer would seem to be no work would be allowed under either a Black all or Red flag.

[zracre]

I would have to say no. I was involved in a wreck at sebring turn one in 95 or 96 and we had a black flag all...I walked up to a pit marshall and asked if I could unbend my GTI fender from touching the wheel and got a definite NO!...It seems appropriate as it would make things too complicated for re-grid...I guess you could go back to the pits and work and restart at the back...good question to expand our knowledge

<<rules nerd in training!

[dave parker]

Raymond
I think that my answer would be that I would need to consult the Supplement Regulations for the event. In an endurance race (like the 12 Hours at the Point) working on your car while the field is under a BFA is a NO-NO.

But I am normally wrong when dealing with Steward types. Except for one time ( ) where the words "well founded appeal" were used.


cheers
Dave Parker
wdcr ITC#97

[Gary L]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe@Oct 20 2005, 03:55 PM
Here&#39;s my take:

Under 7.7 - Restarts:

"No replenishment or assistance to cars shall be allowed after a race is stopped and before it is restarted."

Backed up by 9.4.2.F Black Flag All
"Practice/qualifying/racing has stopped"

So the answer would seem to be no work would be allowed under either a Black all or Red flag.

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My money says this is the answer that Raymond - Where in Hell is he when we need him anyway - Blethen was after.

But I want to see how this works out when the Black All comes out to allow everyone to change tires for rain... I&#39;d bet there&#39;s going to be more than tire changes going on. Oops, would ya look at that? Both sway bars just disconnected themselves!

Gary L.

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe@Oct 20 2005, 11:55 AM
Here&#39;s my take:

Under 7.7 - Restarts:

"No replenishment or assistance to cars shall be allowed after a race is stopped and before it is restarted."

Backed up by 9.4.2.F Black Flag All
"Practice/qualifying/racing has stopped"

So the answer would seem to be no work would be allowed under either a Black all or Red flag.

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Matt-

You are correct...

Thier are many other little rules like this that can be "dug" out of the GCR... It is amaizing how many things are not spelled out but have a large effect on ones race. A lot of races I have been to the clock continues to run during a black flag (time restraints) and I guess the question can be asked, if the time keeps running then the race is still on right??? thus you should be able to work on the car and start from the back of the grid??? hummm (no I don&#39;t think that this question has an answer, other than it depends on the supps, and ones interpretation of the rules).

Raymond

[charrbq]

I can only give you the answer from experience during a race. I suppose it really rests with the stewards and the supps. When I work grid or fast pits, during a black flag all, the cars are brought in, single file, away from the pit wall. If someone needs or wants to work on their car, then they may either go to the pit wall or enter the paddock. Re-entering the race from the paddock has its own rules. If a driver choses to go to the pit wall for service, then he loses his position on the track. When/if the race/practice/qualifying resumes, the pitted driver goes to the back of the field. This can work to an advantage, but good luck on that.

[7racing]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance@Oct 20 2005, 12:46 PM

Can you work on your car during a black flag all? Specifically where in the GCR is this covered?

Raymond "No Stephen and Jeremy Sheppard you are not allowed to respond!!!" Blethen

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Damn, I&#39;ve been black balled. We must&#39;ve had a drunken discussion over this at Mid-Ohio....I don&#39;t remember it.

Anyway, can your next question deal with whether one can pass during a race?

Jeremy

[RSTPerformance]

Yes Jeremy, that will be next...

Raymond "SHHHHH, only one thing at a time, we are dealing with a lot of drivers here " Blethen