New Weight for E36 325 ITS?

**Ron Earp** · 10-27-2005, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by mlytle@Oct 27 2005, 01:24 AM
20hp or so more in jp trim, at the rear wheels.

and to an earlier question, no, people don't move from jp to its. you would have to change (downgrade) too many items..cams, injectors, light flywheel, brakes, wheels, rear wing, front splitter, and more. some of us its cars do race our cars as is with the jp cars though, at a huge disadvantage.

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Two drivers did definitely do that in the Spring, it is chronicled in the regional BMW rag that I get here in the SE. I'll see if I can dig it out. I distinctly remember they were BMW racers who decided to "try the waters" of the SCCA and showed they could run with the best. Thing is, if they were indeed J Prepared they weren't running on equal footing, that is for damn sure.

Ron

**JeffYoung** · 10-27-2005, 08:15 AM

Ron, in all fairness to those guys, I think they were ITS-prepared cars to begin with that sometimes run BMWCCA in JP (at a distinct disadvantage).

**BMWE46ITS** · 10-27-2005, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by rlearp@Oct 26 2005, 07:18 PM
J prepared.

Do people that race BMW CCA really convert back to SCCA ITS specs when they jump? Really? I remember reading in an eariler BMW CCA report about a couple of SE BMW CCA racers who went to race SCCA ITA at VIR for the first time this year and did well. But, J Prepared rules have some important differences:

*Throttle bodies, air horns, and intake plenums are free

*AFMs can be upgraded in size with another BMW AFM

*Camshaft lift and duration may be changed from stock. Cam gears and valve springs are free

*Motor and transmission mounts may be changed for strength

*Rotors are free

These are some damn big changes if you ask me! If I had some of these items on the we could turn Jeff's TR8 into an overdog and you'll be declassing that thing in 2006. Rotors and cam would do it for us!

Anyhow, so J Preppared BMW folks really swap out cams before an ITS race?

Ron

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Ron, you can run the car two ways in JP for BMW CCA, you can run it as a legal ITS SCCA car with out the restrictor at 2,850 ( remember headers are legal in SCCA and not JP) or you can run it as a Full JP car with cams, larger mass air, larger T-body, Aero Kit, 17 inch wheels, Larger brakes and ABS!!! yes ABS!!! with a weight of 2,900. Yes I agree a full JP should beat a SCCA ITS car hands down, but they made this rule so you can have a crossover car and not touch a thing( except remove the RP).

**BMWE46ITS** · 10-27-2005, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by lateapex911@Oct 26 2005, 09:25 PM
I saw that too....

Logic would deduce that they took a built motor of known HP, and retested it with the plate, and attempted mods to reduce the plates effect.

So, the question is, how much power did the plate cut? So much that the decision was made to drop the E36s, and get two E46s??

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No that's not it I never tested the plate till after I sold the cars, our cars needed some work after 3 years of racing and we decided to switch over to the newer body and develop the new car. The new body will help us out with the marketing part of our business. BTW we still have one team E-36 car driven by John Stewart. Red 11

**BMWE46ITS** · 10-27-2005, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 27 2005, 07:13 AM
Dude, are you DENSE??? The BMW enjoys a SIGNIFICANT performance advantage in NUMEROUS ways, horsepower-to-weight being the obvious one! I got a real giggle about the "sports car versus family sedan" comment; dude, do you REALLY think the 'rest of the world' thinks you're driving a Toyota Camry???

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Please compile a list of track records across the country and see which car is on top and get back to me.

Originally posted by GregAmy+Oct 27 2005, 07:13 AM-->

So, the BMW enjoys this significant advantage, is being considered for parity adjustments, and you're asking that the rest of the world get taken down a notch with it? So, it's OK if the BMW gets performance adjustments as long as its performance advantage is maintained? Whaaaa....?

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What do you think would have happen if Kip raced his Porsche 944s this year for the full year? Results might have been different right, or at least I know it would have been some good racing up front!! Fast driver with a great car builder= front running car.

Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 27 2005, 07:13 AM
Holy Christ, bud! Do you really think everyone else is that stupid???

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Please don’t take the lords name in vain.

Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 27 2005, 07:13 AM
You have an AWESOME car, VERY well built, and with any mid-range driver has an high-probabilty chance of winning just about any race. The questions are usually not which car will win, but which BMW will win. THIS IS UNFAIR, THIS IS INEQUITABLE. THIS IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. WITH ANY REASONABLE CERTAINTY, THIS WILL BE CHANGED.

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Thanks for telling us we build nice cars, but are you telling me were mid-range drivers?

<!--QuoteBegin-GregAmy@Oct 27 2005, 07:13 AM
Sorry for the rant, man, but some of these comments make me feel like we're talking to a two-year-old...I can understand you're not being happy with losing your dominant position, but if you REALLY think you're getting shat on, you want to thorwo a tantrum, and you want to move over to BMWCCA where you think the playing field is more level, that's fine and good, we'll miss you. However, just don't expect folks from this side of the fence to feel any empathy for you.

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That’s what this board if for, lets get it out now, so I don’t have to punt any cars come spring time ( joking)

**mlytle** · 10-27-2005, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Oct 27 2005, 04:47 AM
So that's what, somewhere in the 235-240 WHP range? And the JP car only weighs 50# more (and you get to do all that other cool stuff to the JP car). I would expect the ITS cars to get their lunch eaten by the JP cars. What's really funny, is that I seem to recall a request, a few months back, to allow cars prepped to BMWCCA rules, to run in IT, as is.

And for only a 50# weight penalty, you get to put all those neat go-fast goodies on the car, and run JP. Why would anybody build these as ITS cars?

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heck no, allowing jp cars into its would be stupid! not sure where you saw that request. there has been an ongoing issue in the bmwcca about ways to make the its cars more competitive in bmwcca, not the other way around.

why? because until the last year or so, the competition in scca has been better and the number of races in a given area is higher (i race in the wdcr...10 race marrs series vs. 3 bmwcca races). this past year has seen major increases in the competitiveness and number of e36 325's in bmw cca. the landscape is definitely changing. so now your question is a valid one. why would we build its cars?

**Greg Amy** · 10-27-2005, 11:22 AM

Please don't avoid the issues.

...compile a list of track records across the country...

Is that your standard, the number of track records? So, as a car gets a track record it gets weight? What about when it eventually loses the track record; does it get the weight removed?

Sorry, wrong answer.

...if Kip raced his Porsche 944S? Results might have been different...

What does this have to do with the issue about the 325's power-to-weight versus the RX-7's?

And using results as a benchmark? Sorry, wrong answer.

...are you telling me were mid-range drivers?

You are far too sensitive.

I watched a very talented newly-licensed driver do IMPRESSIVELY well this year in a 325 that - as I understand it - is not fully developed. Was it the car? Was it the driver? Was it a combination of both? Could he have done as well in Nick's RX-7? What if those two swapped cars; whadya guess would happen? If we want to use this example as a benchmark, it doesn't bode well for the BMW camp's arguments of perceived parity.

Let's try something different. Let's try a benchmark based on technicals. Further, let's ignore "potential" and go straight-weight with manufacturer's new car number (interrupt me if you've heard this before, a jillion times):

1995 BMW 325. Manufacturer's rated horsepower, 189; torque 184. Current ITS weight = 2850; 15.08 lb/hp, 15.49 lb/ft-lb torque
1991 Mazda RX-7. Manufacturer's rated horsepower, 160; torque 140. Current ITS weight = 2680; 16.75 lb/hp, 19.14 lb/ft-lb torque

Again, let's ignore that fact that the 325 is getting well over 200 ponies to the wheels in IT trim while the best RX-7 is getting 170. Let's even ignore the fact that the BMW I-6 has a bodacious torque curve while the Mazda rotary has none. Let's just make these cars even using OEM numbers, shall we? Let's even up:

- the power to weight on the cars by either making the Mazda 2415 pounds or the BMW 3156
- the torque-to-weight by either making the Mazda 2170 pounds or the BMW 3520 pounds
- the average between the two: make the RX-7 weigh 2300 pounds or the 325 weigh 3330 pounds.

And, let's have you choose which one you want. Go ahead, it's your choice, whichever one you want! Oh, wait, that's right: you think they're already evened up...

Do you really expect this crowd to show empathy for your terrible situation?

**Catch22** · 10-27-2005, 12:12 PM

Hey Greg,

Throw the Integra GSR in there too. Same power and torque as the RX7 but it has MUCH smaller brakes and does everything with the front tires.
Oh, and it has to weigh 10 pounds MORE than the RX7.

Awwwww.... Those poor BMW guys.
I'm ruining my keyboard with the tears.

Scott, who thinks the BMW situation is no different than ANY situation where a class somehow ends up with a dominant car... Thats where 90% of the money and the talent goes, making the situation even WORSE in terms of results.

**BMWE46ITS** · 10-27-2005, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by GregAmy+Oct 27 2005, 11:22 AM-->

Please don't avoid the issues.
Is that your standard, the number of track records? So, as a car gets a track record it gets weight? What about when it eventually loses the track record; does it get the weight removed?

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So track records don’t mean anything to you? I guess we have to disagree on this one. I just can’t understand how you can say a car that holds 4 track records is not competitive. The Mazda is very fast car and you can win with a top level car and top driver.

BTW: Can we all agree the long course at the Glen is a H.P. track?? Then how can a RX-7 hold the track record if it’s ALL ABOUT POWER?? I also think we can agree that John Stewart (Auto Technic) and Ed York (York Automotive) drive some of the top prepared BMWs in the country, and they know the Glen really well (both have held or still hold track records at the Glen) so how can a Mazda have the track record in 2005 if it’s SUCH A UNDER DOG.

Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 27 2005, 11:22 AM
Sorry, wrong answer.
What does this have to do with the issue about the 325's power-to-weight versus the RX-7's?

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All I’m saying is a 944s built right with a good driver can win also.

<!--QuoteBegin-GregAmy@Oct 27 2005, 11:22 AM
Let's try something different. Let's try a benchmark based on technicals.
1995 BMW 325. Manufacturer's rated horsepower, 189; torque 184. Current ITS weight = 2850; 15.08 lb/hp, 15.49 lb/ft-lb torque
1991 Mazda RX-7. Manufacturer's rated horsepower, 160; torque 140. Current ITS weight = 2680; 16.75 lb/hp, 19.14 lb/ft-lb torque

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We finally agree this is what we should be using to figure things out. I will agree the BMW has a power advantage, but you have to factor in items like brake size, how many pistons per brake caliper, basic suspension design. I also feel weight has the largest affect on race car, it really affect everything, handling, braking and acceleration over a 25 lap race.

OK were off to the BMW CCA race this weekend at NHIS, hope it warms up.

**benspeed** · 10-27-2005, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by robits325is@Oct 27 2005, 02:30 AM
then we will be forced to release Stewart from his holding cell in Jeffs basement.

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Made me laugh my butt off! C'mon John, give us a helluva good rant!

**BMWE46ITS** · 10-27-2005, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by benspeed@Oct 27 2005, 04:04 PM
Made me laugh my butt off! C'mon John, give us a helluva good rant!

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Stewart has a new job and the server at his office won't let him write on improvedtouring.com, so I think were all safe for awhile. I know it would be alot more fun with him here, maybe we should get him a nice laptop for the winter.

Ben Speed what’s your take on all this, you’re a reasonable guy and I know you know alot about the specs on all the cars involved, PLUS you actually race in ITS!!!! . What's your take on ITS racing in the NE for the 2004 and 2005 season?

**Andy Bettencourt** · 10-27-2005, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by BMWE46ITS@Oct 27 2005, 03:41 PM
So track records don’t mean anything to you? I guess we have to disagree on this one. I just can’t understand how you can say a car that holds 4 track records is not competitive. The Mazda is very fast car and you can win with a top level car and top driver.

BTW: Can we all agree the long course at the Glen is a H.P. track?? Then how can a RX-7 hold the track record if it’s ALL ABOUT POWER?? I also think we can agree that John Stewart (Auto Technic) and Ed York (York Automotive) drive some of the top prepared BMWs in the country, and they know the Glen really well (both have held or still hold track records at the Glen) so how can a Mazda have the track record in 2005 if it’s SUCH A UNDER DOG.
All I’m saying is a 944s built right with a good driver can win also.
We finally agree this is what we should be using to figure things out. I will agree the BMW has a power advantage, but you have to factor in items like brake size, how many pistons per brake caliper, basic suspension design. I also feel weight has the largest affect on race car, it really affect everything, handling, braking and acceleration over a 25 lap race.

OK were off to the BMW CCA race this weekend at NHIS, hope it warms up.

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Tell me the top prep cars that run on the tracks Nick holds the records on. When was York's SPRINT car (now sold) run at WGI? The enduro car is less than the machine he rocked with at the 2004 ARRC in Qualifying. I will not agree that Stewie's car is one of the top prepped. Does it have the 10hp your cars didn't?

The RX-7 IS NOT AN UNDERDOG. It is right where an ITS car should be. The BMW, when prepped to it's potential, is more than the class was meant to handle. The real power track is Pocono. The same one that Your boy Driscoll took two wins at against Nick.

Let Stewie out of his cage, he doesn't have a leg to stand on. And if he goes off like he did the last time, he will continue to soil the good name you have built over the past years.

This is such a dead horse.

AB

**ed325its** · 10-27-2005, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 27 2005, 03:22 PM
I watched a very talented newly-licensed driver do IMPRESSIVELY well this year in a 325 that - as I understand it - is not fully developed. Was it the car? Was it the driver? Was it a combination of both? Could he have done as well in Nick's RX-7? What if those two swapped cars; whadya guess would happen? If we want to use this example as a benchmark, it doesn't bode well for the BMW camp's arguments of perceived parity.

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Greg,

This is conjecture and an invalid argument to prove any point. In my opinion it adds no proof to the statement "doesn't bode well for the BMW camp's arguements".

If I am thinking of the same driver as to you are refering, and I do not want and will not bring names into this example, he would kick the fields but in an RX7 as well prepared as the #04.

Since I took most of the '05 season off for family reasons we may not be thinking of the same drivers.

See you next season.

**BMWE46ITS** · 10-27-2005, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt+Oct 27 2005, 05:22 PM-->

I will not agree that Stewie's car is one of the top prepped. Does it have the 10hp your cars didn't?

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10 HP makes that big of a differance in your mind? The only thing Stewart doesn't have is Motec, and that time at the Glen was BEFORE the restictor. So if your car doesn't have Motec or EFI how are you saying they don't compare sounds to me they have the same level of prep. Why doesn't your car have lighter wheels on it, if it had the best of the best??

I dont' know much about Yorks car except its super fast at the Glen and it was on the pole at the ARRC, and Nick beat the track record with a RX7. BTW we all know Nick is a fast clean driver and we have had great races in the past.

What about Kips cars you wouldn't call them fast, I think Kip went faster in the Mazda then his BMW at Lime Rock and at NHIS, and wasn't his BMW on the Pole at the ARRC also.

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 27 2005, 05:22 PM
The RX-7 IS NOT AN UNDERDOG. It is right where an ITS car should be. The BMW, when prepped to it's potential, is more than the class was meant to handle. The real power track is Pocono. The same one that Your boy Driscoll took two wins at against Nick.

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Rob won by two car lenghts both races and Nick had a faster lap in race one and race two on a HP track. It was a close and awsome race I have the video if you want to borrow it.

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 27 2005, 05:22 PM
Let Stewie out of his cage, he doesn't have a leg to stand on. And if he goes off like he did the last time, he will continue to soil the good name you have built over the past years.

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Andy you know this is all a joke about Stewart were just trying to lighting up the mood around here.
<!--QuoteBegin-Andy Bettencourt@Oct 27 2005, 05:22 PM
This is such a dead horse.

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I agree leave the car alone with the plate and lets go racing!! Andy and all have a great weekend, I'm out the door for NHIS right now.

**Banzai240** · 10-27-2005, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by BMWE46ITS@Oct 27 2005, 10:42 PM
10 HP makes that big of a differance in your mind?
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Are you serious??? Let's look at that... The E46 makes 172hp stock, and is classified at 3000lbs... The E36 makes 189hp stock, and we are saying it should be about 200lbs more... So YES, 10hp makes a VERY big difference...

Think in terms of wt/hp... If the target is 15:1, then you are talking about 150lbs for 10hp...

Simple, APPLIED math...

**Andy Bettencourt** · 10-27-2005, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by BMWE46ITS@Oct 27 2005, 06:42 PM
10 HP makes that big of a differance in your mind? The only thing Stewart doesn't have is Motec, and that time at the Glen was BEFORE the restictor. So if your car doesn't have Motec or EFI how are you saying they don't compare sounds to me they have the same level of prep. Why doesn't your car have lighter wheels on it, if it had the best of the best??

I dont' know much about Yorks car except its super fast at the Glen and it was on the pole at the ARRC, and Nick beat the track record with a RX7. BTW we all know Nick is a fast clean driver and we have had great races in the past.

What about Kips cars you wouldn't call them fast, I think Kip went faster in the Mazda then his BMW at Lime Rock and at NHIS, and wasn't his BMW on the Pole at the ARRC also.
Rob won by two car lenghts both races and Nick had a faster lap in race one and race two on a HP track. It was a close and awsome race I have the video if you want to borrow it.

Andy you know this is all a joke about Stewart were just trying to lighting up the mood around here.

I agree leave the car alone with the plate and lets go racing!! Andy and all have a great weekend, I'm out the door for NHIS right now.

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We could bicker back and forth on the issues forever. I can couterpoint everything you have said. Let me just ask you this:

Do you think it is the correct move for the class to have the 325's power to weight in line with the rest of the class? The disadvantage that the extra weight would carry above and beyond equalizing the numbers, would, IMHO be offset by the huge torque advantge the car has ove the other benchmark cars.

Just because things may be equal in your area doesn't mean they are on the grand stage.

AB

**benspeed** · 10-27-2005, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by BMWE46ITS@Oct 27 2005, 08:57 PM
Stewart has a new job and the server at his office won't let him write on improvedtouring.com, so I think were all safe for awhile. I know it would be alot more fun with him here, maybe we should get him a nice laptop for the winter.

Ben Speed what’s your take on all this, you’re a reasonable guy and I know you know alot about the specs on all the cars involved, PLUS you actually race in ITS!!!! . What's your take on ITS racing in the NE for the 2004 and 2005 season?

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Well, you know I love buring up sackfulls of $$ on this game. If I hadn't bought Kip's RX7 in January 2004 I would absolutely be running a top prepped BMW and I would be royally pissed that a plate got hung on it. I still wonder if I shouldn't buy one even with the plate. (If you guys could sell as well as you drive I'd have bought one of your cars!

) I will run my Mazda one more year since it has had every single component replaced since I bought it and then move to a national class. Likely T2 or E Prod.

If I was planning on staying in ITS I'd go BMW. Granted my Mazda is a pretty top prepped car - not at the level of Nick's but certainly up there with very little to be done besides motech and mega time on the dyno fuel mapping. I will say that while my and his cars dyno close, he's got his fuel map dialed in so well that he's pulling my car in a big way at lower RPMs. That is because of a huge investment in time and $$ on development that nobody else has equalled here in the NE. Oh, and he's fast as heck - let's not downplay the driver. I don't think I'd beat his times jumping into his car. Anyway, I still think the bimmer is a better car - many reasons already covered.

Here's an example of why. I will say that a BMW driver and I were always very close at NHIS - and I could tell he was slower this year because of the plate. Particularly going up the hill. However, even with the plate, once he got around me coming out of 12 onto the straight, I felt that I was faster into the turns but he could still outpower me out of the corners. You know why you guys called me banzai ben - I could only pass you bmw guys diving into a corner. Even with a great exit I couldn't put down the power of a bimmer and that gives the bimmer track position that will be extrodinarily hard to beat. You have to banzai hard and then get an awesome exit to complete the pass - very tough to do. Because of that I think that a well prepped bimmer will have that track position advantage, even with a plate. Give me that corner exit power over marginal weight advantage.

I've driven several bimmers and think they are just much better driving cars and rue the day I stayed with the RX7. I always tell folks I hate these friggin tin can Mazdas but they do make good race cars and are much cheaper than bimmers.

My point is that if I hadn't committed to the Mazda and burned up so much in repairs, I would have a very highly prepped bimmer and probably be a tougher guy to beat because of the track position advantage. I'd buy a bimmer because I feel it's got a significant advantage in the way it drives, torque, hp, chassis - the only thing that isn't the best is weight. But the brakes a pretty damn good - it's not like the Acura brakes.

Do I think the restrictor is bogus? Sure. If there was no restrictor I'd buy a bimmer.

(I still troll ebay for E36 chassis regularly - How much for the Autotechnic ITS conversion and setup? I'll own both and can make '06 a comparison year.)

In addition to the track mannerisms, specs wise I think the car is significantly dominant. If there was no restrictor rule I bet I could build a bimmer and with nominal development match my Mazda. A front running bimmer with a junkyard motor (several junk motors over the season) was competitive all year here in the NE. When they build a solid motor this winter, lookout!

Great luck with the E46 at NHIS - looking forward to getting some times from you guys and hearing how well the 3D guys run also. Looking forward to you guys being on track and racing with us again in '06. I hope you beat your old times so the whole E46 effort is worth it.

I'm now going back to Autotrader and Ebay for the cheap E36 I've been looking for. Who can build me a cage for a good price???? But I'm not selling the Mazda - it's now plated in gold after the $$ I spent getting it reliable.

**lateapex911** · 10-27-2005, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by benspeed@Oct 27 2005, 10:37 PM
........But I'm not selling the Mazda - it's now plated in gold after the $$ I spent getting it reliable.

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LOL...great post....

I know Kip didn't sell that car for chump change, and with the above quote, maybe you should change the name from "Big Speed Racing" to "Big Spend Racing"...

Kidding, of course!

So, lets say you DID get an E36 a year or so ago, and you were pissed about the changes that have been applied and those that may be coming. You'd be pissed as you said, but would you understand?

**Andy Bettencourt** · 10-27-2005, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by benspeed@Oct 27 2005, 10:37 PM
In addition to the track mannerisms, specs wise I think the car is significantly dominant. If there was no restrictor rule I bet I could build a bimmer and with nominal development match my Mazda. A front running bimmer with a junkyard motor (several junk motors over the season) was competitive all year here in the NE. When they build a solid motor this winter, lookout!

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Ask for an unbias opinion, and get one!

AB

**benspeed** · 10-28-2005, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by lateapex911@Oct 28 2005, 03:35 AM
LOL...great post....

I know Kip didn't sell that car for chump change, and with the above quote, maybe you should change the name from "Big Speed Racing" to "Big Spend Racing"...

Kidding, of course!

So, lets say you DID get an E36 a year or so ago, and you were pissed about the changes that have been applied and those that may be coming. You'd be pissed as you said, but would you understand?

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LOL!!! My wife would rename it BigIdiot racing or "You could drive a Porsche C4S for the money you spent". BigSpend Racing - my sponsor may bum on that. Oh yeah, that would be ME!

I tell ya - got those bimmer juices going again - whos got one for me?

Thread: New Weight for E36 325 ITS?

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