Concerned about IT's Future

[Bill Miller]

Latest info I have, is that they got the requests (I actually sent two, one for the Golf, and one for the Jetta), but they didn't get the VTS sheets (which I sent later). I'll have to go back and dig them up

[Andy Bettencourt]

Would this be an opportunity for an excersize in 'class jumping'?

What I mean is that lets say the Golf/Jetta/NB are all identical other than the bodies. In theory, they would be in the same class.

What if we put the Golf/Jetta in ITB at a lower weight while the NB runs parallel in ITC at the higher weight. Would this give the membership an interesting choice without actually having to 'dual-class' them?

Just an idea. Thoughts?

AB

[zracre]

As ong as they are built with roll cage thickness in mind.....

[gran racing]

Not to pick on you George, but…

Not to diss anyone in ITB/ITC, but most of the youngsters drive street cars WAY faster than ITB/ITC cars. I'd suggest this is more of an issue with getting the youngsters to run these classes. I'm NOT anti-ITB/ITC, but this is a very real issue. It's the same sort of reason I wouldn't in a million years consider buying/building a car for HP for instance.

This is an interesting statement. For IT, what age group is SCCA’s target market? My guess is that it begins at people in their late twenties. Do you think that the biggest factor more young people do not become involved in IT (other forms of SCCA’s road racing program) is due to the cars available to choose from? I really don’t think so. I’ll grant you that when I was first introduced into SCCA the idea of racing a 90 hp car was not that appealing to me. But as I learned more, ITC and ITB (and ITA for that matter) made sense due to the cost factors. The faster you go the more expensive racing gets. My opinion is that SCCA needs to focus on keeping IT as affordable as it can be to attract new customers, revamp its marketing strategy because it has really sucked in the past, as well as continue building a bridge from autocross to road racing. I’d just hate for the club to focus on the wrong things without really identifying what can be done to attract new racers to SCCA. Not that it really matters, but even ITA’s fast cars only have 140 hp stock. One of the other top cars only has 110. It is all about how things are marketed and educating people.

Sorry Kirk, didn't mean to be cranky. But, I do get a little cranky about the talk of red tape and how difficult it is to get a car classified. THIS is pure hyperbole. The reality is it's pretty easy as long as the car is a pretty reasonable fit in IT.

The perception of things changes as one gains more experience with SCCA and racing in general. To a brand new person racing, getting a car classed can be intimidating. Speaking as a person who did this (I had the Prelude that I’m racing now classed – it was my first racing experience with SCCA) it was a bit difficult. I understand that there is simply no way around the need to obtain much of the information, but to say it is easy really is inaccurate. I also agree that I did this to myself and I could have chosen a different route. Heck, when I went to the Honda dealerships (yes, multiple) to try and obtain some of the necessary information the just looked at me and said they have no idea where in the world one would get that. I wasn’t asking the new guy either; some of the guys at the shop thought it was really cool what I was trying to do and took the VTS sheets and did some research but still couldn’t locate some of the required info.

I agree that there are things on the VTS that are not needed, but we take incomplete VTS all the time. If they are complete enough we take action on the request.

Well then we need to work to get rid of any of the unnecessary information that is not easy to obtain. When people get a VTS sheet and it asks for X, then the person believes they need to really do the research even if not easy to find out what X is. Anything that can be done to make the process easier should be done.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 19 2005, 12:53 PM
Would this be an opportunity for an excersize in 'class jumping'?

What I mean is that lets say the Golf/Jetta/NB are all identical other than the bodies. In theory, they would be in the same class.

What if we put the Golf/Jetta in ITB at a lower weight while the NB runs parallel in ITC at the higher weight. Would this give the membership an interesting choice without actually having to 'dual-class' them?

Just an idea. Thoughts?

AB

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Andy,

This was one of the reasons behind my request to classify the Mk IV Golf/Jetta, to see where they would land. As you stated, they're the same as the NB, with the exception of the bodywork. Not sure what that means in terms of curb weight. I actually did look it up, back when we were talking about the NB, but I don't have it handy. From what I recall, the weights were all pretty close, w/ the Jetta being slightly heavier than the NB. I'll look it up again though.

Just pulled it up. The following data are for 2000 m/y cars

New Bettle GL - 2769#
Jetta 4dr GL - 2884#
Golf 2dr GL - 2767#
Golf 4dr GLS* - 2864#

* Golf 4dr only offered in GLS trim level, not the GL trim level.

If there was concern about getting the NB down to the process-generated weight, I suspect that the others would have a hard time getting there as well. Sure does create an interesting situation. Can anyone else think of a case where you've got the same engine/driveline, but in two different generations of car, running in two different IT classes? I was think the 4AGE Toyotas, but the FX16 is FWD, and the AW11 MR2 and AE86 Corolla are both RWD (w/ the MR2 being mid-engine).

[Geo]

All very fair questions....

Originally posted by gran racing+Oct 19 2005, 06:44 PM-->

Not to pick on you George, but…
This is an interesting statement. For IT, what age group is SCCA’s target market? My guess is that it begins at people in their late twenties. Do you think that the biggest factor more young people do not become involved in IT (other forms of SCCA’s road racing program) is due to the cars available to choose from? I really don’t think so.

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[/b]

I agree with you. If you go back to the discussion, IIRC Kirk was talking about lack of choices being an issue with ITB/ITC. My response was to suggest that it has more to do with the power of those cars and that most of the younger set today have road cars that are significantly faster and they aren't interested in racing slower cars than their road car. Please keep in mind that I'm not dissing those classes nor am I suggesting speeding them up. I'm just repeating comments I've heard from potential new racers about ITB/ITC.

Originally posted by gran racing@Oct 19 2005, 06:44 PM
My opinion is that SCCA needs to focus on keeping IT as affordable as it can be to attract new customers...

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We are not customers. We are members. There is a difference. That said, I agree that we need to keep affordable racing to attract new members.

Originally posted by gran racing@Oct 19 2005, 06:44 PM
Heck, when I went to the Honda dealerships (yes, multiple) to try and obtain some of the necessary information the just looked at me and said they have no idea where in the world one would get that. I wasn’t asking the new guy either; some of the guys at the shop thought it was really cool what I was trying to do and took the VTS sheets and did some research but still couldn’t locate some of the required info.

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Did the FSM not have most of the info required?

<!--QuoteBegin-gran racing@Oct 19 2005, 06:44 PM
Well then we need to work to get rid of any of the unnecessary information that is not easy to obtain. When people get a VTS sheet and it asks for X, then the person believes they need to really do the research even if not easy to find out what X is. Anything that can be done to make the process easier should be done.

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I agree. Perhaps the VTS could use some updating. I&#39;m sure it&#39;s used for multiple classes, but perhaps certain items could be indicated not necessary for certain classes?

[gran racing]

We are not customers. We are members.

From a standpoint of attracting an increase in customer/member base, reminds me of how a bank (customers) and a credit union (members) look at things or supposidly do. I certainly don&#39;t want SCCA to start making all of our decisions based upon what would make sense for a greedy business. What I&#39;m really trying to get at is there could be more proactive methods being used to get new members (got it! ).

What you said about the ITB/ITC does make sense and I was one of those people, race a 110 hp car? How fun can that be?

Kinda related; I&#39;ll never forget when I told one of my sponsors that I was moving down a class from ITA to ITB and how excited I was. His response was why in the world would you be happy they moved you down? Almost like it was a big demotion and it was because I wasn&#39;t ready for the faster drivers. Looking at it from his perspective it made sense and I couldn&#39;t help but chuckle.

[Catch22]

I think what will get younger people involved in IT is an understanding that you CAN go out and race competitively in a $5000 car. Thats where the club misses the marketing boat for ITB and ITC in my opinion.

Run a series of articles in Super Street or Honda Tuner about building and racing a 87 CRX Si in ITB for $7000 and see if it doesn&#39;t grab some interest.

NASA has done this with the Honda Challenge, but they&#39;ve focused on the fastest, pimpyest class (H1). While it gets plenty of interest with the younger crowd (brightly painted Civics with Acura powerplants are all the rage) 95% of these guys can&#39;t remotely drop $25 to $50K to build a race car. Thats what they&#39;d LIKE to do, but they can&#39;t.

When I was 24 years old, I could have been racing an ITB or ITC car. Easily. Problem was that I just didn&#39;t even know it existed.

Scott, who thinks we need to get some newer VWs, Mazdas, Fords and Hondas in ITB/C and get the word out.

Has anybody with SCCA considered sending a photog and writer to the ARRC race to cover the ITC race? Maybe to later try to publish in some of the "tuner" magazines? It promises to be a real showdown, but if nobody covers it and sends it to the automotive public... Well... Only those people who already know about it are going to know about it.
Just a suggestion.

[gran racing]

Exactly!! When I was growing up going to races, I saw the skippy schools and thought that was the only way to go. A $3,500 bill for a school weekend? Guess what they say is true; racing is only for the rich. But that is not true.

Scott, did you just make a typo? Weird because the B & C aren&#39;t even that close.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Catch22+Oct 21 2005, 04:22 PM-->

I think what will get younger people involved in IT is an understanding that you CAN go out and race competitively in a $5000 car. Thats where the club misses the marketing boat for ITB and ITC in my opinion.

Run a series of articles in Super Street or Honda Tuner about building and racing a 87 CRX Si in ITB for $7000 and see if it doesn&#39;t grab some interest.

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[/b]

Agreed.

<!--QuoteBegin-Catch22@Oct 21 2005, 04:22 PM
Has anybody with SCCA considered sending a photog and writer to the ARRC race to cover the ITC race? Maybe to later try to publish in some of the "tuner" magazines? It promises to be a real showdown, but if nobody covers it and sends it to the automotive public... Well... Only those people who already know about it are going to know about it.
Just a suggestion.

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I have some contacts at Sport Compact Car and have written an article for them in the past. I think it&#39;s too late this year to do a viable proposal. I may work on it for next year though.

[zracre]

[quote]


What you said about the ITB/ITC does make sense and I was one of those people, race a 110 hp car? How fun can that be?

I moved back to ITB from ITS because of a cost/competitiveness standpoint...now im in A because I love the Acuras in general...many people say how can you move back? just look at SM 110hp average, and people flocking.....equal playing fields (or as close as we can get) lower cost than many IT efforts, contingencies, now national...and HUGE competitive fields...

[Catch22]

Originally posted by Geo@Oct 22 2005, 01:41 AM

I have some contacts at Sport Compact Car and have written an article for them in the past. I think it&#39;s too late this year to do a viable proposal. I may work on it for next year though.

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Give them a call George. You never know, they may be desperately looking for stuff to fill the pages RIGHT NOW.
Last year, Kirk sent out press releases to the local newspapers of all the drivers that were running his car in the VIR 13 Hour. THE NEXT DAY my local paper contacted us wanting to do a story. They needed to fill space and had nothing going on. Not only did I get in the local sports page, I got on the FRONT PAGE of the local sports page complete with color picture.
For that entire week, everywhere I went somebody said "Hey, aren&#39;t you that racer guy that was in the paper?"

We NEVER expected that.
So... Call SCC. It can&#39;t hurt. They can crawl all over my car and take pictures at the ARRC (its a pretty ITC car. some say the nicest C car they&#39;ve ever seen ).

Again, when those twenty somethings that see World Challenge and Grand Am Cup on Speed find out that they can do that for about $5000, I think the results will be good.

Scott, who says "folks don&#39;t know what they don&#39;t know."

[Catch22]

OH, and I know somebody who is building an ITB CRX right now in Atlanta. If SCC wants them to track the build with pictures I&#39;m sure they&#39;ll do it.
These guys are pretty serious though, so they will probably be going over the $7000 mark

[Geo]

Originally posted by Catch22@Oct 22 2005, 10:53 AM
OH, and I know somebody who is building an ITB CRX right now in Atlanta. If SCC wants them to track the build with pictures I&#39;m sure they&#39;ll do it.
These guys are pretty serious though, so they will probably be going over the $7000 mark

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Covering a build would be ideal. I&#39;ll talk with my contacts. I think it could be done right by pointing out how to take advantage of the rules and that the rule book is not a terrible thing. They key is to get the kids to realize that "OK, IT cars aren&#39;t bling, but they do have some cool stuff."

[hare_ITC]

IMO driver age has nothing to do with the declines in ITC and ITB. Take me for an example. I am a 20 year old college student. I ran a EP rx7 in high speed autox this past year, through a student organization here. I now have a ITC rabbit that my friend and I bought, and will be doing w2w next year. Maybe I&#39;m just an exception but isn&#39;t half the fun of racing, being able to run with someone else in your run group. To me it doesn&#39;t matter if my car has 300 hp or a measley 80 or whatever the rabbit has, so long as I can run with someone it will be fun. I thought that was the way amateur racing was supposed to be. My .02

Ron Davis
#22 ITC rabbit

[ITC69]

Originally posted by Catch22@Oct 21 2005, 04:22 PM
I think what will get younger people involved in IT is an understanding that you CAN go out and race competitively in a $5000 car. Thats where the club misses the marketing boat for ITB and ITC in my opinion.

Run a series of articles in Super Street or Honda Tuner about building and racing a 87 CRX Si in ITB for $7000 and see if it doesn&#39;t grab some interest.

NASA has done this with the Honda Challenge, but they&#39;ve focused on the fastest, pimpyest class (H1). While it gets plenty of interest with the younger crowd (brightly painted Civics with Acura powerplants are all the rage) 95% of these guys can&#39;t remotely drop $25 to $50K to build a race car. Thats what they&#39;d LIKE to do, but they can&#39;t.

When I was 24 years old, I could have been racing an ITB or ITC car. Easily. Problem was that I just didn&#39;t even know it existed.

Scott, who thinks we need to get some newer VWs, Mazdas, Fords and Hondas in ITB/C and get the word out.

Has anybody with SCCA considered sending a photog and writer to the ARRC race to cover the ITC race? Maybe to later try to publish in some of the "tuner" magazines? It promises to be a real showdown, but if nobody covers it and sends it to the automotive public... Well... Only those people who already know about it are going to know about it.
Just a suggestion.

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[ITC69]

Hey Gang, Racecar building ain&#39;t cheap, but it can be done on a budget, just requries time and patience. Observed my son, Mike Fine build his first (then ITB CRX)on the part of the month plan. Campaigned it for several years in ECR&#39;s with a co-driver to share week-end expenses. Original car was lost to a Crash at Road Atlanta, where it lost an argument with a Large Pine Tree!!!(ouch) Replacement car took less time to build, and was faster, better car, due to lessons learned on first one and his increased car prep skills. Best finish in car as an ITB Car was at ARRC , 2000, when car finished 2d in ITB Enduro, a result of smart planning, good drivers, and sheer luck. I know, I was crew-chief for that one. All of the other ITB Hot shoes broke early and we soldiered on. Car did eventually get reclassified to ITC with a 50# weight add and has proved very competitive in ITC.

[dickita15]

hmmm
"The most fun you can have with 100 horsepower"

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Geo@Oct 23 2005, 02:22 AM
Covering a build would be ideal. ...

Ooh, ooh - over here! Hello?!

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/build4.php

K

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis@Oct 23 2005, 08:54 AM
Ooh, ooh - over here! Hello?!

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/build4.php

K

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Nice job, but you&#39;re WAY too far along in the process. The other thing when doing something like this for a magazine article, the going is 2-3x as slow. Why? Because you can only get so far before you have to stop and take pictures. When I did my tech article for Sport Compact Car it was almost torture. They are VERY fussy about photography (and the new editor is a fantastic photographer so it will be even more so) so just a quick shot in the middle of doing something will not be up to magazine standards.

To do a magazine article on a subject like this, the person must be very dedicated to the article as well and communicating the tech stuff very well, including the illustrations (photos). Anyway, I&#39;m just saying there is more that goes into this than may seem.