Concerned about IT's Future

[JeffYoung]

Guys, has anyone else noticed a drop in IT car counts the last few years? I didn't make the SIC (the equivalent of the NAARC runoffs in the Southeast) but we only had 9 ITS cars, 4 IT7 cars and 4 ITA cars. Pretty weak. We've had two events this year cancelled due to lack of workers as well (ALMS Labor Day and Roebling in November, admittedly both near holiday weekends).

We rarely get more than 4-5 ITA cars in the SEDiv. ITS fields rarely above 8-10 except for "special" events like the rare opportunity to run Barber, Daytona and SARRC/MARRS.

And, even though I'm an owner of a dinosaur ITS car (two actually), having ITS fields made up of 30+ year old 240zs, 20+ year old RX7s and 10+ year old BMWs is starting to look a little bit like production.

Do we need new blood? How healthy are the other regions? How are car counts?

[tom_sprecher]

I have seen car counts drop over the past few years across the board. The formula group was really bad this year. GT is suffering hence GT Lite.

But then you have the explosive growth of SM, and increases in FSCCA, CSR and SPO. I guess it depends on where the current interest and a good source of cars can be had. With what the auto makers are putting out these days (little or no RWD sports cars) it's no wonder we're racing old iron. Oh yeah, I forgot, $.02

[gsbaker]

There may be a natural ebb and flow at work. Some of the SM guys are getting fed up with the cost of running up front and switching to SRF. Some of the SRF guys are looking at the FSCCA car because it can be configured with and without the fenders. I guess people move in/out of IT for similar reasons.

Taking the cake is a big-bore ARRC winner I ran into at an oval racing school. He thought roundy-round looked fun and was going to try it for a while.

I'm not aware of any statistics; it's just casual observation. Does Topeka publish car counts?

[dickita15]

I too think there is some natural ebb and flow. in new england number have been on the rise for about 5 years led by sm, its and ita. we saw a little leveling off in 05 but it is hard to peg the cause. we have had some problems with one track including large cost increases.
you really need to look at a long time period. any decision to race by a driver does not usually create entries for a couple of years as they ready thier car and get licenced.
looking at different part of the country also yields big diffences. in the sw for example most competitors race in national classes while up here the regional classes are stronger.

[joeg]

Everyone has mentioned SM...and they are correct but should emphasize their comment.

Trust me, many IT folks have gone SM.

That being said, SCCA has their hands full with ITB and ITC because many of the popular cars in those classes are getting too "long-in-the-tooth". Not that they can't race well, but OEM NOS bits are getting tougher to find.

I race a relic, but not everyone coming into the sport is hooked on old cars (or likes using eBay as their part source).

Accordingly, the smaller IT car count is a valid observation.

[Knestis]

Not surprisingly, this is the kind of policy question that a wonk like me loves. Problem is, while Topeka has participation data for Nationals, since that's where the (hah) participation rule (hah) gets applied, nobody seems to gather participant data in any meaningful way for 'regional only' classes. Some non-scientific thoughts...

** IT is considered by some to be a "gateway" class, from which one moves up if one is serious. Make the IT classes National-eligible and this will change a lot, at the expense of increased budgets at the pointy end of the field.

** The growth of SM is almost without question at the expense of IT participation numbers. This too shall change...

** The economy has been a little loopy. Some people have stopped racing this summer simply because of gas pump price shock. Can't do anything internally about this factor. IT is still arguably a good racing value.

** The classification process requires someone to actually make an effort to get a car listed. This is a fundamental barrier to entry for new participants - particularly young ones who don't want to know anything about a Datsun. (What's a Dot-sun, man?) Racers of currently-classified cars don't have any incentive to get new competition out there against them, and newbs just don't understand or are put off enough by the process to be reluctant to make the effort. Once the ITAC has the initial spec shuffle worked out, the next priority should be identifying and listing a bunch of new, appropriate, eligible cars in the IT classes, using the same processes being applied to re-classifications.

** The divisions or regions ought to do a better job of gathering data to understand their customer base.

K

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Knestis@Oct 14 2005, 08:23 AM
...** The growth of SM is almost without question at the expense of IT participation numbers. This too shall change......

K

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Interesting. How do you believe this will change, and for what reason?

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by gsbaker@Oct 14 2005, 09:50 AM
Interesting. How do you believe this will change, and for what reason?

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Personally, Gregg, having dipped my toes into the waters of Spec Miata, I suspect a lot of folks will very quickly get turned off by the wreckless driving, whiney attitudes, and inexperience that the majority of the participants in the group express. Further, it's not as cheap to run at the pointy end as "they" would lead you to believe, and progression to National status will only inrease the depth of the field spending that money (plus, many are vehemently opposed ot SM getting National status). Participants that get turned off on SM will flip to the next logical option, Improved Touring.

Yeah, that'll piss off a bunch of SM drivers, and I *am* speaking generally, but that's why I immediately turned my back on the class after having spent a lot of coin building one. I wish I still had my Spec Miata, but solely as a basis to build an ITA car. - GA

[zracre]

I hate to say it but I think a large part of the problem is that not many potential new racers are being marketed. I run across enthusiasts that have no idea you can race a car for real...maybe more marketing to youth markets to show it can be done?? also it is our job to show off our cars at local businesses...helps ourseves with sponsor money, them with association in racing interest to draw in local enthusiasts/customers then its your job to show off a bit...we are all good at that . I have friends that leave road racing for roundy round because it is generally more local and more often. tracks are smaller and numbers are higher so they have the capacity to generate cash flow every weekend.
oh and in the SE we generally have at least 6 cars run seems to average 8 or 9 cars except of course daytona...22 or 23 ITA cars. The SIC saw 6 ITA cars, 10 ITS cars 4 IT7 cars and...I think that was because of the people not bother because of points and the inclement weather forecast for the weekend.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just to follow what Dick said here in the NE:

ITS and ITA have grown to large levels. 25 cars per race, each. ITB follows with about 15 and ITC with about 5.

We also have 2 Miata classes, SM and SSM. Both capture about 25 cars each. IT and the SM's represent almost 60% of our entries - and we run all the classes plus some Regional onlys - ITE, SPU, SPO, etc...we have actually had growing pains as we run on smallish tracks...

So to analyze...

It could be a Regional thing but I see ITC dying soon. ITB can't be too far behind. They are effectively vintage classes. Other then the NB in ITC, what the heck else is going there to refresh the class? Nothing.

A class (or 2?) above ITS is the solution IMHO. Everything filters down as you will have some actual choices in the 10-20 year range in every class.

ITR ~ 185-220 stock hp

AB

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 14 2005, 01:03 PM
... I see ITC dying soon. ITB can't be too far behind. ...

Ack. Andy - it is troubling that your response is "I see [class] dying" rather than, "Here's what we can do to keep [class] from dying."

There are a huge number of perfectly reasonable ITB and ITC cars reaching the perfect "vintage" for IT - old enough that they are becoming yard queens, but not so old that parts are hard to find. We just need someone to make a concerted effort to get them listed: Not eligible? Nobody will build one.

Greg's got a good start on why SM popularlity might wain. Add to his list...

** Mazda's interest is subsidizing the boom. I've been involved in spec classes that lost their parts/promotion sugar daddy manufacturers. Mazda WILL change its priorities at some point and the deal will get less sweet. IT took years and a long-needed change in ITA for something like 100 tons of Spec NEONs to find a place to live. Until that change, those cars were selling for pennies on the dollar, having been The Great Opportunity just a decade ago.

** Whether they admit it or not, a portion of SM drivers think that running a class with a "pro" series is their ticket to the big show. This dynamic leads to overexten$ion and increased likelihood of dropping out. Particularly when the body bills start to grow.

** Many have bought into the "all the cars are equal" mythos and some are discovering that (1) they are NOT; (2) where they are, driver skill is a bigger issue - and they can't drive so well; or (3) both.

** The grass is always greener.

I talked to a guy I raced with at a couple of NASA events, who ran an orphan kind of car in PS3 (ITB/ITC). He's actually one of the few who I think might have a really GOOD reason for switching to SM - "No matter how fast I am, I'll probably have someone to race with."

K

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Knestis@Oct 14 2005, 10:31 AM
...a portion of SM drivers think that running a class with a "pro" series is their ticket to the big show.

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...which brings up another downside to SM, if your goals are pro. Next year the Pro Spec Miata series is going to be with the brandy-new cars *only*; no more M1s or M2s allowed...

[mgyip]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Oct 14 2005, 11:18 AM
...which brings up another downside to SM, if your goals are pro. Next year the Pro Spec Miata series is going to be with the brandy-new cars *only*; no more M1s or M2s allowed...

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What's the downside - I forsee a bunch of cheap M1s that are primed and ready to turn into ITA cars

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by mgyip@Oct 14 2005, 11:20 AM
What's the downside - I forsee a bunch of cheap M1s that are primed and ready to turn into ITA cars

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Yeah, I was thinkin' the same thing, Matt...hmmmm....no, what I meant was that if someone really wanted to race Pro, they'd have to prep two different cars; not cheap. It's likely that those with their eyes on the prize may forego Spec Miata entirely and race Pro only.

There are just bigger fields in SM and therefore it is magnafied.

Mac, that may very well be true, with the qualifier that the class tends to attract the less-experienced folks with those traits in the first place. We (the board) have bantered on this before; so as not to get off topic I was offering it as a reason - along with the others specified - why IT may be experiencing reduced numbers due to SM and why it may gain a lot of those back moving forward.

Funny thing: I just re-read my post and laughed out loud. I said SM drivers were guilty of "wreckless" driving when I truly meant the complete opposite! "Reckless", of course, is the correct word. Freudian slip, perhaps? Not bloody likely... - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Knestis@Oct 14 2005, 10:31 AM
Ack. Andy - it is troubling that your response is "I see [class] dying" rather than, "Here's what we can do to keep [class] from dying."

K

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Let me re-phrase...

I see the cars that currently make up ITC and ITB becoming extinct through evolution, age, and availability - not by SCCA forces.

I think the classes need to stay alive - if they can run some numbers, and additional classes needed above ITS to accomodate new blood.

AB

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 14 2005, 04:45 PM
Let me re-phrase...

I see the cars that currently make up ITC and ITB becoming extinct through evolution, age, and availability - not by SCCA forces.

I think the classes need to stay alive - if they can run some numbers, and additional classes needed above ITS to accomodate new blood.

AB

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Andy,

when I read your remarks I paused for a second and tried to remember were I had heard the very same comments?

then it hit me, the Production class meeting in Ohio, they were complaining that there were no more parts available for the 1960? british blah blah blah, while listening all I could think was "well I guess you need a new car".

the solution that was propposed was to allow limited prep motors from different cars, this may or may not happen, it also seems wrong if you broke ever last 947cc block you should not be allowed to ask for a 1175cc in limited form, you should be out Sorry, next time dial that build back a couple of thousandths.

one think for sure it sure doesn't sound like the SCCA will allow any car to be cast asside. even if the natural elimanation of a car would help freshen up some classes.

My vote is for the ITAC after they complete the review of all classes and cars currently running, then review and place as many newer cars in IT even if no one is requesting them, there are far to many cars that can be classified that are not because competitors don't know how to do it.

brian m

[mgyip]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Oct 14 2005, 09:03 AM
It could be a Regional thing but I see ITC dying soon. ITB can't be too far behind. They are effectively vintage classes. Other then the NB in ITC, what the heck else is going there to refresh the class? Nothing.

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And whose fault is it that there are no new cars in ITC and ITB?

I remember the multi-page diatribe about the NB in ITC and how it would most certainly kill the class b/c one driver was distraught that his 27 yr old car would no longer be competitive. His strong suggestion (as stupid as it was then and is now) was to add nothing to ITC so that he wouldn't have to change classes which absolutely floors me. TIMES ARE CHANGING, CARS ARE GETTING FASTER - if you have an "antique", er vintage race car and don't want to go Production, then either join a Vintage racing organization or hang up your drivers suit b/c you're holding up progress.

In the DC Region, ITA and ITB have been fairly static over the past 3-4 years although numbers are down perhaps 10%. ITC is a different story b/c they have been grouped with SRX7s locally. SRX7, like SM and SSM is a spec class which tends to mean a crash-fest b/c the cars are theoretically identically prepared. The ITC folks locally are tired of the weekly bloodbath and more than a few of them have decided to go Production.

From what I can see, SCCA is working to re-align IT so that it can and will grow in the future. for their effort. I just hope the old guard comes to the realization that in order for the Club to grow that some cars will end up re-classed or otherwise classed where the car won't necessarily win without any effort.

Whew!! Rant off... :angry:

[cherokee]

Originally posted by mgyip@Oct 14 2005, 03:02 PM
then either join a Vintage racing organization or hang up your drivers suit b/c you're holding up progress.
win without any effort.

Whew!! Rant off... :angry:

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Nothing ticks me off more then someone telling me to go race some where else in my car that is already classed. I do not have a problem with newer cars coming down the pike. I do have a problem in moving just "popular" cars around, that ain't right. My suggestion years ago was to put B&C into the same class, add weight here take it away there and shuffle cars around a bit. But you will not see me get to angry about new cars coming into the class....I may whine about it a little but as long an you let my dinosuar run I will be happy. And if you do change stuff around to it for the entire class not just the "popular" cars.

[mgyip]

Originally posted by cherokee@Oct 14 2005, 12:53 PM
Nothing ticks me off more then someone telling me to go race some where else in my car that is already classed. I do not have a problem with newer cars coming down the pike. I do have a problem in moving just "popular" cars around, that ain't right.

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My point is that I'm tired of hearing "but my antique won't be competitive if SCCA allows newer cars into the class". That's progress. I don't have a problem running my so-to-be antique in ITA while the newer, faster cars show up and make me look (key word there, LOOK) even slower. I'm not hung up on the concept that in order for cars to to be classed, they must become a front runner.

I'm unclear about the "popular" cars comments however. Most of the changes in ITB and ITC have been to less popular cars - the FX16 comes to mind as do some odd variations of VW Sloroccos.

[spnkzss]

Originally posted by mgyip@Oct 14 2005, 03:13 PM
My point is that I'm tired of hearing "but my antique won't be competitive if SCCA allows newer cars into the class". That's progress. I don't have a problem running my so-to-be antique in ITA while the newer, faster cars show up and make me look (key word there, LOOK) even slower. I'm not hung up on the concept that in order for cars to to be classed, they must become a front runner.

I'm unclear about the "popular" cars comments however. Most of the changes in ITB and ITC have been to less popular cars - the FX16 comes to mind as do some odd variations of VW Sloroccos.

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There is also something else to think about. The SCCA's goal is to give people/cars a place to race. Nothing is said about all cars being setup competitively. Yes popular cars maybe faster than some of the vintage cars. It happens. It also happens in the reverse. I race a 1990 Honda Civic. I have the handling and I have the brakes. A VW will ALWAYS out power me. That is the advantage to IT. Different cars with different strengths and different weaknesses so that it is somewhat "competitive". The problem is someone wants to come in with a Yogo and run 1st everytime out. It just ain't gonna happen. Personally I am thinking about moving from ITC to ITB. Not because my car is slow, not because they haven't classed any new cars in C, I personally want to go faster, and I want to race with more than 10 other cars in my class and 30 SRX7s. There have been some interesting things happening in our reagion with SRX7s. That doesn't bother me as much. What bothers me about the SRX7s is their weaknesses are my strengths and my weaknesses are their strengths. That always leads to getting in each others way. I'm not saying that ITC cars shouldn't run with SRX7, I don't want any part of the decision of who runs with who. I feal bad for the people that do hav eto decide that. I would just like to run with cars in my own class and atleast 15 of them.

I don't have a logical solution for any of this. I will be more than happy to help come up with a solution, but people need to get over the idea that every car SHOULD be able to win.

Rant and a half done for the year. Let's start Bench racing for 2006. O wait, I promised my wife I would not talk about racing for a little while