National championship or ARRC championship

[lateapex911]

Some follow up points-

IT is really an amateur version of Speed Word Challenge in many ways...it makes sense that the "everyman version" be on SCCAs biggest TV show.

IT is already expensive...Serras car sold form more than most equivilent class (FP?) Prod cars, and the stories of ITS are well known. Winning (at the national level) wouldn't go up a tremendous percentage, but 10th place probably would.

As it stands now finishing in the top ten is a real feat fro me, I doubt I would see much track time as a driver at the Runoffs. But it should still be done.

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by zracre@Sep 29 2005, 03:23 PM
But can you imagine how expensive IT would become???

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Huh, if you had any idea what the top guys in ITS and ITA have in their cars, you wouldn't be sayin' stuff like that. Trust me: there's no way that winning ITS and ITA can cost much more than it is (travel expenses aside...) - GA

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by 16v@Sep 29 2005, 12:40 AM
I dunno Jake. I didn't watch *every* race, but for the many that I did stand at the wall for I'd have to say they were the best crash 'em up, fender rubbing, walk the other guy off into the grass stuff I've seen since Cheap Date

But seriously, the Prod races were sensational from a viewers perspective. I think that when you see the broadcasts you'll all agree.

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Doug, I hear you...my first sentence pointed out that this year was likely to be better than years past.

I made the statemnt after reviewing the grid sheets for the last few years. Many classes had less cars than we see in ITA at a Regional, and the time spread was incredible. 20% over 17 cars is huge for a "National Championship".

But this year was different. I imagine that Kansas will bring some new blood, and lose some old blood, but I fear it will go down before it comes back up.

[zracre]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Sep 29 2005, 09:10 PM
Huh, if you had any idea what the top guys in ITS and ITA have in their cars, you wouldn't be sayin' stuff like that. Trust me: there's no way that winning ITS and ITA can cost much more than it is (travel expenses aside...) - GA

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I dont have alot in my car...no where near 20 grand and im usually a front runner...i will be going to the ARRC with some new stuff and hope for a good race finish...i just said that as history repeats itself with a class going national...just look at AS a few years ago....the demand for stuff goes high priority and so does the price...watch SM engine prices....you will see what i mean...

[Greg Amy]

Been there, done that, brother, got the Runoffs t-shirt and medal to prove it. Trust me, the money's already being spent profusely...

[dazzlesa]

just passing some kudos to the prep shops. i was fortunate enough to buy anthony's integra. i cannot express how quick a car he has made. these top prep shops put major effort into these cars. i see brets car is for sale for 18k and nick's rx-7 is for sale for 23k. i had considered other cars but in the end i felt that there was no way that i had the knowledge or time to make a "total package" . they think and try everything.
rick ITA 06

[datadude]

Do any of you have any idea how MUCH it costs for TV? The amount should be staggering. So I don't think it will fly.

[Tom Blaney]

Originally posted by dazzlesa@Sep 29 2005, 10:09 PM
just passing some kudos to the prep shops. i was fortunate enough to buy anthony's integra. i cannot express how quick a car he has made. these top prep shops put major effort into these cars. i see brets car is for sale for 18k and nick's rx-7 is for sale for 23k. i had considered other cars but in the end i felt that there was no way that i had the knowledge or time to make a "total package" . they think and try everything.
rick ITA 06

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Jeeze you guys won't have any of the fast guys to chase. I sold mine, Brets won't last, the Serria mobiles, and Nick. Poor Ray will have to carry the torch, now he will really have to start springing for tires.

[gran racing]

I think you would be surprised to know what each of the top 5 cars in each class cost at the ARRC, especially in ITS and ITA.

Andy, my real concern would be if this impacted the majority of cars being run nationally, not just the cars that run in the ARRC. And yes, I realize there are some big bucks being spent in IT. I do think SCCA needs to do its best to keep some of the racing costs down to entice new people to the sport. There should be a progression in racing and costs associated. That is kinda what I see from ITB > ITA > ITS > and so on. If not, it opens up a nice niche for another racing organization. I'm not worried about the small percentage of people that spend significant amounts of money but when that becomes the norm just to be competitive locally, that's a different story.

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 29 2005, 08:47 PM
Evan,

I'm curious if you'd be as excited about going to the Runoffs if you knew in order to qualify for the Runoffs you'd have to tow all over the SEDIV JUST to make the Runoffs? Because *if* ITA was a national class, you can bet there'd be people coming out of the woodwork to try finish in the top 10 in the division and qualify for a Runoffs race in ITA. So you'd have to tow to Homestead, Sebring, Kershaw, Road Atlanta, Roebling, Daytona, Road Atlanta, Roebling and then VIR. Add up those miles from your house, the entry fees for (10) races, the tires, expenses, etc. Just to try and qualify.

That is EXACTLY what the Spec Miata guys are going to find out real fast next season. The idea of running nationals and going to the Runoffs is indeed glamorous but the reality of it will sink in VERY quickly to a lot of drivers. Guys like Buras, Pombo, Evans, etc., are willing to commit to all 10 races to qualify.

Oh yeah, and then you'd get to tow to Topeka for a week long race.

Just trying to put it into perspective for someone from the SEDIV.

The commitment to running the ARRC each year isn't the same thing. It's a good race to be sure, but it's not the same as the Runoffs.

MC

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Mark,
next you'll tell me there really aren't any gutter snypes and the red mist is imaginary.

You stated been there done that, why so sour? Your realism has a negative sound.

If someone else wanted to try why begrudge them?

Who said IT would have to be a national class? I said change the GCR.

And what, 50k ITA cars towed in 200k haulers aren't allready around? I've been to the ARRC's they show for this one..

How's the tow to Atlanta from your house?

It's over 1075k from my house Atlanta. 950 to Indy and only 400 extra to Topeka.

One note while I was at a CRB meeting last week some competitors were asking if more than the top 10 from a division could be allowed if a class had low turn out. Mike Sauce thought this would be worth looking into.

I think it's great to have full fields but this tells me some classes are done and should be looked at hard just as GT4 & 5 have been.

IT would bang out every class entered with out trying hard.

brian

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by bg43wex@Sep 30 2005, 01:38 PM
...some competitors were asking if more than the top 10 from a division could be allowed if a class had low turn out. Mike Sauce thought this would be worth looking into.

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Of COURSE the rules can be changed for participation; it's been done before! All you young whipper-snappers probably never knew that in "the old days" only the top THREE from each division were guaranteed a spot at the Runoffs. Yep, top-three got automatic invitations, and the rest of the field was filled up on a rotating basis after the deadline, starting with the divisions that had the largest National turnout during the year. Talk about cut-throat competition at the Divisional level, especially up here in New England! - GA

[racer14itc]

Hi Brian,

Not trying to be sour, I'm just trying to be realistic. I spent 5 years in ITC and got a good feel for the IT racers. They are a good group of racers who tend to race on a very limited budget. The ones I raced with who are still in ITC love it, and aren't really interested in the financial commitment of national racing. It's VERY easy for some one to come on a web board and say "Sure, I'd race at the Runoffs" without thinking it through. There's more to it than just one "national championship race". I think Greg Amy would agree with me on this one.

A good example of this in practice is the ARRC. It certainly has the potential to spotlight the very best IT drivers in the country and could even be called the "national championship" of IT racing. But the attendance at the ARRC outside of the SEDIV participants isn't as large as it could be. At the SCCA Runoffs, the SEDIV or CENDIV, or even NEDIV don't make up the majority of participants. At the ARRC I would say the SEDIV racers make up the majority. Why don't more IT racers from the NEDIV, CENDIV, MWDIV, SWDIV, etc. come to the ARRC? I can only assume that it's because the expense involved, both in terms of time and money.

Although it would be nice if IT was represented at the Runoffs, the politics involved pretty much guarantee that it won't happen anytime soon. Especially now that there are new national classes such as SM, T3, and perhaps BP and DP (former World Challenge GT and TC type cars). So there are at least 27 classes vying for 24 Runoffs slots. Less of an obstacle but still a significant one is that I also think that the logistics/rules makeup of IT make it unattractive for a Runoffs type event. The teardown/compliance verification of cars up to 37 years old could be a logistical nightmare. Yes, it's done at the ARRC now but how many people TRULY believe or trust it? (Be honest...how easy is it to verify OEM camshaft profiles on late 60's or early 70's cars? Valve jobs? Cylinder heads?).

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. If anything, the moving of the Runoffs to Topeka is a golden opportunity for someone to try and organize an IT national championship event at Mid-Ohio. Keep track of the NARRC, MARRS, SARRC, CenDiv, PCRRC,etc., champions in each class and invite them to a "true" national championship event a la the Runoffs. If you're waiting for the SCCA national office to do it for you, it isn't going to happen. In fact, the ARRC at Road Atlanta as we know it now evolved from the IT Festival that was held at Heartland Park in the late 80's early 90's. (Ironic isn't it, given that the Runoffs are going there now?).

You can hate me for saying these this, but the fact remains that if IT competitors won't go to the ARRC in Atlanta (which is the de facto IT national championship event) even though there are no qualification requirements, why would I assume that these same competitors would go through an even MORE difficult and expensive process to qualify for the Runoffs?

MC

[stevel]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 30 2005, 05:58 PM


I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. If anything, the moving of the Runoffs to Topeka is a golden opportunity for someone to try and organize an IT national championship event at Mid-Ohio. Keep track of the NARRC, MARRS, SARRC, CenDiv, PCRRC,etc., champions in each class and invite them to a "true" national championship event a la the Runoffs. If you're waiting for the SCCA national office to do it for you, it isn't going to happen. In fact, the ARRC at Road Atlanta as we know it now evolved from the IT Festival that was held at Heartland Park in the late 80's early 90's. (Ironic isn't it, given that the Runoffs are going there now?).

that's a great idea. Move the ARRC to Mid-Ohio. Is that a possibility at all?

steve

[Greg Amy]

...if IT competitors won't go to the ARRC in Atlanta...why would I assume that these same competitors would go...for the Runoffs?

A lot of people view this event as nothing more just another (highly-marketed) regional event, something that will gain them nothing more than the event they attended last weekend. Hell, how many arguments have we had on this board with folks taking umbrage at the "national champion" title for ARRC winners? If you don't respect the event as something more than another Regional, why should others?

However, other folks view this event as the one major opportunity in the year to meet and compete against the best and most highly-motived regional racers in the country. If someone's willing to tow 1000+ miles to go run at this event, you can be sure there's some motivation there. I guess it's all in your point of view.

Having this event in one of the four corners of the country does nothing to assist in garnering entries from around the country. However, as we've said many times before here, if you want to host your own event in Seattle, Oregon, California, Mid-Ohio, Texas, Arizona, blah, blah, blah, you should get off your duff and do it.

Move the ARRC to Mid-Ohio. Is that a possibility at all?

Technically, the "ARRC" is a regional event run by the Atlanta Region, just as the NARRC is a NER event. It is highly unlikely that they will run an event at Mid-Ohio, any more than NER would move the NARRC to Topeka... - GA

[reeceracing]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 30 2005, 05:58 PM
Hi Brian,

Not trying to be sour, I'm just trying to be realistic. I spent 5 years in ITC and got a good feel for the IT racers. They are a good group of racers who tend to race on a very limited budget. The ones I raced with who are still in ITC love it, and aren't really interested in the financial commitment of national racing. It's VERY easy for some one to come on a web board and say "Sure, I'd race at the Runoffs" without thinking it through. There's more to it than just one "national championship race". I think Greg Amy would agree with me on this one.

A good example of this in practice is the ARRC. It certainly has the potential to spotlight the very best IT drivers in the country and could even be called the "national championship" of IT racing. But the attendance at the ARRC outside of the SEDIV participants isn't as large as it could be. At the SCCA Runoffs, the SEDIV or CENDIV, or even NEDIV don't make up the majority of participants. At the ARRC I would say the SEDIV racers make up the majority. Why don't more IT racers from the NEDIV, CENDIV, MWDIV, SWDIV, etc. come to the ARRC? I can only assume that it's because the expense involved, both in terms of time and money.

Although it would be nice if IT was represented at the Runoffs, the politics involved pretty much guarantee that it won't happen anytime soon. Especially now that there are new national classes such as SM, T3, and perhaps BP and DP (former World Challenge GT and TC type cars). So there are at least 27 classes vying for 24 Runoffs slots. Less of an obstacle but still a significant one is that I also think that the logistics/rules makeup of IT make it unattractive for a Runoffs type event. The teardown/compliance verification of cars up to 37 years old could be a logistical nightmare. Yes, it's done at the ARRC now but how many people TRULY believe or trust it? (Be honest...how easy is it to verify OEM camshaft profiles on late 60's or early 70's cars? Valve jobs? Cylinder heads?).

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. If anything, the moving of the Runoffs to Topeka is a golden opportunity for someone to try and organize an IT national championship event at Mid-Ohio. Keep track of the NARRC, MARRS, SARRC, CenDiv, PCRRC,etc., champions in each class and invite them to a "true" national championship event a la the Runoffs. If you're waiting for the SCCA national office to do it for you, it isn't going to happen. In fact, the ARRC at Road Atlanta as we know it now evolved from the IT Festival that was held at Heartland Park in the late 80's early 90's. (Ironic isn't it, given that the Runoffs are going there now?).

You can hate me for saying these this, but the fact remains that if IT competitors won't go to the ARRC in Atlanta (which is the de facto IT national championship event) even though there are no qualification requirements, why would I assume that these same competitors would go through an even MORE difficult and expensive process to qualify for the Runoffs?

MC

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[Colin Harmer]

I've been following this thread, as I just got back from my first run-offs (not driving) and have been to 6 ARRCs (driving). And I've had a few thoughts...

All of this is my opinion only, so with a grain of salt... here we go.

1. Geography probably doesn't make a huge difference. You may change the players by moving the event, but I'm guessing that the grid count for Atlanta vs. Mid Ohio vs. Topeka probably wouldn't change much.

2. Regardless of who goes, it's always been a great event from a competitor point of view, as you are running against some great cars and drivers. Since we're running for plastic trophies here, the racing might as well be good.

3. The idea of the "nationals for IT" is a good one. It may not be the most valid comment as it's not really recognized that way. There are certainly some very good drivers who are among the best of their class, but I can't help feeling that there's some really strong talent on the West coast that we never see...

4. Do we really want a 8 day event? The ARRC has a good pace, with loads of track time, so from a scheduling point of view, I wouldn't want to change it. The run offs (or run-ONS as I've heard them referred to) it a major time commitment as well as financial one.

5. TV would be fantastic...Anyone got 500K to get the time bought? 'nuff said...

6. Can we all just agree that some people will spend way more money on racing then others...

I know that so and so has a $7million ITD fiesta with a 53 foot hauler and Prevost coach, 2 engineers, a portable wind tunnel and a crew of 12 mechanics... :119:

Economics and racing are two words that do not belong on the same page...

Time and money will always fill the space they are provided. If for some reason you can't field a competitive car on your budget, then either accept that fact or find a class that you can afford to race at the top of, it's that simple. With racing there's no such thing as socialized racing, brute strength and big $$ always seem to win, it's the way it goes.

As racers we'd all like to have unlimited budget and travel the globe racing carbon fibre exotica, but that's really a lifestyle that most of us won't be able to sustain. So we find a class we like, race it when we can, and have fun while we're doing it. Fun...right...that's why....we do it because it's fun!

I am now putting away my soap box...

Cheers,

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't know. I really think that an OFFICAL IT championship event would be popular. There is NO WAY that the ARRC brings in the best from the West Coast. 1000 miles from the Northeast is crazy enough, nevermind 3000 from the PACNW.

Is the the Division that encompasses Mid-Ohio motivated and strong enough to develop, manage and promote this type of event? I think it's possible.

I would travel to the IT National Championships. You could do it over 3 days with a Pro Spec Miata race as support.

AB

[JeffYoung]

Same here. IT national championships at Mid-Ohio sounds like a great idea to me. I would drive to that.

[RacerBill]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Oct 3 2005, 01:38 PM
Same here. IT national championships at Mid-Ohio sounds like a great idea to me. I would drive to that.

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I have mixed feelings about taking somthing away from a region that has worked very hard at building an event.

However, an event like that, promoted properly, that would attract IT cars and drivers from all over the country would be really great.

Mid-Ohio probably has a couple of free weekends in the fall now.

How about a restricted regional (IT classes only, maybe a few invited classes), three days. That would give the drivers plenty of track time.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't think a well promoted, centralized IT Runoff is taking away much from the ARRC. The fact remains that it is a glorified Regional with limited attendance from anywhere but the Southeast. It IS a great event that is the best we have now...I think we can do better. I am trying to raise the NARRC Championship to the level of the ARRC...and if we had 6 events like that Nationwide, it would make for great feeder material and food for predictions - and Regional pride - bringing your top guns to the SHOW....

I agree that it could be done in 3 days - ITS, A, B and C with a Pro SM support race....

Anyone from the MO area care to take the bull by the horns? I would commit 3 cars at the event.

AB