LRP Accident

[Doc Bro]

After seeing what I saw first hand I have made a resolution to my loved ones. I will not race until I have purchased a nead and neck restraint and I will not start next season without a last will. Please everyone let's learn from this tragedy and take care of ourselves and the people who love us. My life is certainly worth the $850 for a head and neck system.
Rob

[Phat-S]

Originally posted by Jake
Does anyone know if he was wearing one?

I don't know that it would deter me to know that he were and still suffered a BSF or other type head/neck trauma - we owe it to ourselves to take as much risk out of the equation as far as safety is concerned.

I saw the news of this posted on another board. Its not someone I know and not a series with which I am familiar but its simply sad to hear, sad for his family, friends, workers, folks that shared the track, the other driver - just a very sad occurance. Best wishes to all and I guess we can always hope that out of such tragic events, it gets one or two folks to buy/rent/lease before their next outing.

[Whip]

They are quite a bit lower in your mirrors and very quick. I didn't see what happened, so I am not pretending to be an expert, but it seems like an accident between an open cockpit spec racer and a full bodied car seems very dangerous for the driver of the open car. Perhaps they should run with open wheel? They are similar in size with the open wheels cars and much quicker than our full bodied cars (in small bore anyway). With the low number of entries in open wheel, it just seems like they would be a better fit there. What do you guys think?

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I agree 110% the Should never be on the track together.

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[/quote]

All the spec racers did in fact have their own race with the formula Vs during the sprint races. The big bore open wheel cars also had their own heat of the sprint race. It was only during the 1hr enduro that drivers of dissimilar make and model choose to run together as is often done at other like events such as LeMans. They had all run very comfortably together for every bit of 50 mins out of the hour before this unfortunate event occurred. A very sad outcome from an otherwise great day of racing.

[Ben 84 RX-7]

Originally posted by Whip@Sep 28 2005, 02:01 AM
All the spec racers did in fact have their own race with the formula Vs during the sprint races. The big bore open wheel cars also had their own heat of the sprint race. It was only during the 1hr enduro that drivers of dissimilar make and model choose to run together as is often done at other like events such as LeMans. They had all run very comfortably together for every bit of 50 mins out of the hour before this unfortunate event occurred. A very sad outcome from an otherwise great day of racing.

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I guess I was referring to the fact that they were out there with us in small bore practice and qualifying for the sprint races. There weren't any Formula Vee's or open wheel cars of any kind...they had their own practice. Maybe they could practice with the open wheel group for the sprints. Then the only time they would be exposed to the larger heavier sedans is during the enduros. Just an idea. I'd like to hear what some Spec racer driver's think. It would be good to hear their ideas.

[lateapex911]

Well, I don't know if the mix of vehicles had anything to do with the incident as I have no real report on the factors involved, but....

First, no matter the cause of the incident or his death, we should all turn to ourselves and ask if we are using the resources afforded us in the safest manner.

>Have we taken advantage of available safety gear to the greatest degree possible?
>Does the helmet fit well?
>Do we wear a Head an Neck restraint? In the infamous words of Baker, "Any H&NR is better than NO H&NR"... and high performance models sell cheaply now.
>Are we comfortable in the way our sanctioning body staffs the track and organizes run groups?

I have always felt that disasters like this are the result of a combination of factors, and that if ONE factor is changed, so is the outcome. So, lets all make sure our own checklist has been attended to.

That said, I could see the enduro car combo as being one of those things that just asks for trouble, whether it has anything to do with the tragedy or not..

Very high speed differetial (56 second laps vs 1:12 laps) is tough to deal with, and the smaller than Spec Racer visibility shadow is just too small and easy to miss.

Again, change just one factor and the results change dramaticaly.

[supersmile]

Originally posted by Ben 84 RX-7@Sep 28 2005, 03:05 AM
I guess I was referring to the fact that they were out there with us in small bore practice and qualifying for the sprint races. There weren't any Formula Vee's or open wheel cars of any kind...they had their own practice. Maybe they could practice with the open wheel group for the sprints. Then the only time they would be exposed to the larger heavier sedans is during the enduros. Just an idea. I'd like to hear what some Spec racer driver's think. It would be good to hear their ideas.

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I race a SRF, and did run the one hour enduro with EMRA at Pocono in August. We're typically grouped with small bore production cars at NHIS and generally there aren't too many problems. Its probably as hard for us to see smaller open wheel cars like formula vees as it is for tintops to see us.

I will say that after sharing the track at Pocono with race trucks and the like, I decided to skip the EMRA race at Lime Rock because I wasn't comfortable with the large disparity in lap times around a much tighter, more crowded circuit.

FWIW, on the sports racing forum site one of Adam's crew said that he was wearing his HANS device, and his belts were tight.

[p99ro]

Originally posted by supersmile@Sep 28 2005, 11:48 AM
I race a SRF, and did run the one hour enduro with EMRA at Pocono in August. We're typically grouped with small bore production cars at NHIS and generally there aren't too many problems. Its probably as hard for us to see smaller open wheel cars like formula vees as it is for tintops to see us.

I will say that after sharing the track at Pocono with race trucks and the like, I decided to skip the EMRA race at Lime Rock because I wasn't comfortable with the large disparity in lap times around a much tighter, more crowded circuit.

FWIW, on the sports racing forum site one of Adam's crew said that he was wearing his HANS device, and his belts were tight.

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1st Great sadnest when we lose some one to racing, pro or weekend driver still a racer. We try not to think of getting hurt or in this case die.
From what I see again as others have said not an expert but. Car stopped in track and a car driving full throttle to a blind spot is just bad. EMRA has been running like this for years. Pro`s do it. But pro`s are used to it and can have safer cars. We go out to race with cars that come from junk yards at times. trying to save monies were we can. I`m not sure but I think I heard the driver had a HANS. If the driver went
into another car like that in anything it could be real bad. I think I`m doing 70 mph at that point. We do know it can happen. I just kinda put the thought out of my head while I`m doing it. I guess It`s up to us to make sure we do what we can to protect ourselves and others. When we see a driver having problems with car contol we should talk to them to help there driving skills to reduce spins and crashes. It happens but some are just down right dangerous. LRP is not a safe track at that place anyway. No Tires or a run off just a very fast steel rail that says hit me. I know the wall had nothing to do with it but things like that need to be fixed. We pay to play. I love LRP but they need to catch up with the program to protect the drivers. They fixed paddock B`s flooding cost some monies why not fix the up hill.
Againg my heart goes out to the friends and family and anyone who were affected emotionaly.
I use a Hutchens now after hitting a wall at NHIS and brought to the hospital to have my neck checked out. Thankfully I was ok just sore. So If you think a restraint gets in the way it does not. We are restricted in the seats anyway and you get used to it.
Scott ITA NER CRXsi

[0100]

Originally posted by p99ro@Oct 24 2005, 01:54 AM
I think I`m doing 70 mph at that point. We do know it can happen. I just kinda put the thought out of my head while I`m doing it. I guess It`s up to us to make sure we do what we can to protect ourselves and others. When we see a driver having problems with car contol we should talk to them to help there driving skills to reduce spins and crashes. It happens but some are just down right dangerous. LRP is not a safe track at that place anyway. No Tires or a run off just a very fast steel rail that says hit me. I know the wall had nothing to do with it but things like that need to be fixed. We pay to play. I love LRP but they need to catch up with the program to protect the drivers. They fixed paddock B`s flooding cost some monies why not fix the up hill.

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I agree 1000%. The right hand uphill needs to be fixed and soon before more people die. I have hit the guard rail and it's like hitting a brick wall. The guard rail has fvcking earth behind it! The rail needs to be removed and a tire wall needs to be placed like 10 feet back from where the guard rail is now. We need a little bit of runoff.

I was told the sedan hit the guard rail and because of no runoff was now across the track. Adam(R.I.P.) had no place to go but into the front of the sedan.

It's 2006 LRP, get with the times. Go to VIR and you can drive like a lunatic and never worry about even denting your car if you go off track, never mind die.

Tire wall and little bit of runoff would make it 100x safer. Don't tell me it can't be done either. It's probably a weeks worth of work if that.

I am pissed!!!!!!

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by 100@Jan 9 2006, 12:49 AM
Don't tell me it can't be done either.

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You should be pissed, but guess what? It can't be done.

It can't be done for two main reasons: one, there's a creek/swamp back behind that earth embankment that the guardrail fronts; and two, the local community will never approve any significant changes to the track. You'd never get approval to move that creek (from the town, from EPA, from environmental groups) and you'll never get approval to fill it. And, oh, the local community will never approve any significant changes to the track...

Here's an aerial photo; see for yourself...

http://tinyurl.com/brmnx

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp...me+rock%7cct%7c

Same goes for the Downhill Turn; there's only so far you can go before you hit another creek (one, by the way, that Jim Vail did move when he bulldozed out the circuit in 1955...) So, these are risks you must accept if you wish to drive LRP... - GA

[lateapex911]

Greg... it is extremely rare that I disagree with you...but this time I do.

I have often thought they could do better on the uphill. And I still think so.

The creek IS confining at the entrance to the corner, but I think significant crush space could be garnered in the impact zone further into the corner. Cerainly the sat image confirms this.

Even 6 feet would be enough room for a tire banding or two, which would be a great help in reducing the G loads of a hit there.

I agree that the community is loath to changes, but, this isn't going to do anything but make the place safer. No extra events, no extra traffic, just less deaths. To my recollection that corner has accounted for the majority of on track deaths in recent years.

(This most recent incident, the death of a Skip Barber student in an "off" that impacted the guardrail in the uphill, and the unrelated heart attack victim. Other recent fatalities include a crew person struck by a flying wheel in the pits at one years Busch north race, and a Porsche club racer killed in the rain at the base of the spectator bridge crossing over the straight.)

Of all the incidents, I would think the Skippy student would have benefitted the most from some attenuation in that spot.

[16v]

Remember~ to alter a corner at a racing circuit calls for a lot of "red tape" to get approval - something I highly doubt LRP will go for let alone pay for.

[Greg Amy]

Jake, walk down to the outside corner station at the Uphill some time and take a look. As I recall (it's been a decade+ since I worked that corner) if you cut that berm 6 feet back you're looking at a dropoff down into the creek/swamp. There's really not much space back there (it's not like you'd imagine it from seeing it trackside). I'm not saying it's technically impossible, but certainly unlikely.

Personally, I have a love/hate relationship with Lime Rock. It's the closest track to me, can be a fun bullring, and has a lot of heritage. However, I tend to dislike it track tremendously due to its safety concerns. I'm frankly amazed that there's not more serious accidents (and worse) than there is. This is nothing close to a modern facility, and recognizing this I know I will never be the fast guy there (I lost my sense of immortality long ago...) I'm convinced that people who are fast at LRP have either never walked the track and/or are freakin' nuts. - GA

[benspeed]

Greg - I'm with you on the safety stuff at LRP. To be fast there you must be very brave if you've walked that track and know how hard you'll hit. I've looked over the berm at the uphill and it would be a very expensive project to improve the track there. If the track had been better run and had some capital reserve I'd bet it would have already been fixed, but the management at that track is a whole other topic that most of us are sick of already. It should be part of any tracks plan to continuously upgrade safety - I haven't seen any safety upgrades there in the 10 years I've been going there.

[gran racing]

How people view LRP is all a matter of perspective. Growing up LRP was the only track I ever went to watch road racing, therefore that was what I considered to be the norm. Driving the track I never felt that it was unsafe, but then again one could argue it is because I don't know any better. I've had the fun of spinning there "a few" times and never contacted a wall (loud knocking on wood sound). Even on the downhill as long as a person doesn't panic, people can become a introduced to rally cross racing and ride it out till the car is ready to join the track again. Again, as a matter of perspective, I never wanted to race at NHIS because I was uncomfortable with its safety (also totalling the car). Although people can argue it otherwise, that's simply how I feel.

Yeah, the track could use some updating (and no more being felt like we need to tip to go to the bathroom!). It could be that I have so much personal historty with the track, but I absolutely love racing that track. Of course almost any thing that could be done to improve a track's safety is a good thing.

[0100]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 11 2006, 03:34 AM
Greg... it is extremely rare that I disagree with you...but this time I do.

I have often thought they could do better on the uphill. And I still think so.

The creek IS confining at the entrance to the corner, but I think significant crush space could be garnered in the impact zone further into the corner. Cerainly the sat image confirms this.

Even 6 feet would be enough room for a tire banding or two, which would be a great help in reducing the G loads of a hit there.

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You beat me to it Jake. I stood on top of the berm which is level with the top of the guard rail just last year. I can't remember how far it goes back, but it does go back some before starting to drop off. I wish I could remember how far. It may need to be built up, so more runoff area and a tire band can be had. Even without building the slop up I thing some much needed real estate can be had.

The creek is not the problem at all. If you look at the sat picture from apex on you have plenty of room. If the area was flat you could make a huge runoff very easily. The problem is LRP management, the hill, and red tape.

I know in a formula car I am flying threw that section. Scary fast. Oh well I know if I was running LRP I couldn't live with myself knowing I could do better.

It can be done.

[dazzlesa]

just a thought. leave the outside of the turn as is , add tires. modify the inside of the turn.turn in earlier. am i missing something?

[lateapex911]

Well, I could be wrong, there MIGHT be too little realestate out there, but hey...JUST 6 feet would be HUGE. The difference between hitting an Armco (I've done it) and a double row of tires (done that too, LOL) is like night and day.

Extending the track...(or is that shrinking the track!) would work as well, but there are two downsides.
1- Expense. It isn't cheap to lay the foundation and do a proper job ..and have it not tear up. And the chicane would be less effective..unless IT was modded too.
2- Track records. new configuration means the old records will stand forever, and there will be no comparing new to old.

IF it were even the same money to add tires on the outside, that would be my choice.

But hey, Lime Rock only pulls in $44,000 from us every time we rent there...we can't expect them to make improvements until we get serious and start paying some real money.

(Dave, I am with you...sentimentally, I LOVE the place. But, honestly, they haven't treated us well, and compared to other, successful tracks, they are pretty lame. You need waders to work on your car in B paddock if it rains. The ONLY reason improvements are made it the laying of the law by NASCAR and ALMS, I'm afraid. And their "dealing" with us has been less than honest.)

[JLawton]

Not that I'm for this (I've always done well on the up hill (unlike the rest of the track), but maybe it's out of ignorance....) but how about using the chicane??

This would take all the speed out of the corner and maybe create more contact....er, I mean passing opportunities........

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think we are missing one of the original points...changes can't be made because of the TOWN. They would rather shut 'er down than approve modification allowances.

I think adding some sort of curved 'soft barrier' in that corner would be good however.

AB

[Tkczecheredflag]

I love to race LRP since this is where I cut my teeth. I've hit the armco in my ITA car in the uphill, (my fault, choked on turn in, decide to use the wrong pedal :119: ), and feel safety is a big concern. To Rick's point, I thought too that to shorten the track and make the turn in sooner could help, but it sounds like the town won't encourage the safety issue and the track doesn't care.
Need we say more.