A1 rear wheel alignment

[evanwebb]

Hi, I need to adjust toe and camber on the rear of my scirocco, and I had been using the "blue adjusters", but every time I take them off I find that the (nylon?) blue part is broken (torn) in one or more places. Are there alternatives? I think I saw some supplier that has steel shims that adjust camber only, but what if I need to adjust toe as well? I was thinking that you could use high-quality hard washers between the stub axle and the trailing arm...

[JamesB]

good question. I know the Shine is camber only. I don't remember if BSI has anything, and their new site is impossible to navigate, I cannot even find parts I know they have there now.

[mgyip]

The shims that I purchased from BSI many moons ago are metal and adjust both toe and camber. At last check, BSI was selling off their VW stuff so they may not carry that anymore but it's worth a shot.

BTW - Evan, your cooler is reposing quietly in my garage. Its contents are quite safe...

[evanwebb]

Thanks Matt, I'll talk to Stu and see if he has metal shims. Thanks for taking care of my cooler, lets put it to use at MARRS 10. I think it will need new contents though

Originally posted by mgyip@Sep 22 2005, 11:27 AM
The shims that I purchased from BSI many moons ago are metal and adjust both toe and camber. At last check, BSI was selling off their VW stuff so they may not carry that anymore but it's worth a shot.

BTW - Evan, your cooler is reposing quietly in my garage. Its contents are quite safe...

[snapback]60936[/snapback]

[JLawton]

I'm trying to remember what my set up looked liked. I thought you only have to turn (rotate) the Shine shims to get both toe and camber. May take some trial and error........

In fact, now that I remember, at the last NHIS race, a VW bent an axle and as a band-aide, Dick used one of the shims to get the proper toe..........

[Bildon]

- Do you know how much your rear axle is bending under cornering side loads?
Because if not your toe and camber settings are not even close to correct. An anti-toe link is a good idea.

- An aluminum spacer placed UNDER the rear stub shaft and machined to give a baseline camber/toe setting is a good way to 'rough in' the settings. We then use the thinnest shims to fine tune. We used to use the nylon ones but now we use our metal shims.

[evanwebb]

Hi Bill, did you get my email? Do you have a selection of different metal shim wedges that I can use to get the alignment adjusted?

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 22 2005, 01:22 PM
- Do you know how much your rear axle is bending under cornering side loads?
Because if not your toe and camber settings are not even close to correct. An anti-toe link is a good idea.

- An aluminum spacer placed UNDER the rear stub shaft and machined to give a baseline camber/toe setting is a good way to 'rough in' the settings. We then use the thinnest shims to fine tune. We used to use the nylon ones but now we use our metal shims.

[snapback]60954[/snapback]

[Joe Craven]

I just use starter shim stock which is intended for use on GM cars. I cut pieces from it in various thicknesses and mix and match until I get the toe and camber I need.

[Tom A]

Originally posted by Joe Craven@Sep 22 2005, 09:52 PM
I just use starter shim stock which is intended for use on GM cars. I cut pieces from it in various thicknesses and mix and match until I get the toe and camber I need.

Thanks Joe, you just saved me an email.

Tom

[Joe Craven]

I bought my starter shim stock from Kragan auto in California - I think it is Checker elsewhere. It had various thicknesses and was cheap, about 5.99 IIRC.

Here is a link to something like I bought.
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail....artnumber=02350

Here are some higher quality shim stock
http://www.reliabilitydirect.com/shimprodu...CC-shimkits.htm

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 22 2005, 05:22 PM
- Do you know how much your rear axle is bending under cornering side loads?
Because if not your toe and camber settings are not even close to correct. An anti-toe link is a good idea.

- An aluminum spacer placed UNDER the rear stub shaft and machined to give a baseline camber/toe setting is a good way to 'rough in' the settings. We then use the thinnest shims to fine tune. We used to use the nylon ones but now we use our metal shims.

[snapback]60954[/snapback]

But is an anti-toe link legal under the IT rules?

MC

[Bildon]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 25 2005, 07:57 PM
But is an anti-toe link legal under the IT rules?
MC

[snapback]61156[/snapback]

Mark, would I suggest it if it weren't?

5.c.1 is wide open wrt wording...

Any antiroll bar, traction bar, Panhard, Watts .....
Mounts may be welded or bolted to structure .....
Traction bars used to control VW axle beam rotation shall be .. solid bar ... heim rods ok ....

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 28 2005, 02:33 AM
Mark, would I suggest it if it weren't?

5.c.1 is wide open wrt wording...

Any antiroll bar, traction bar, Panhard, Watts .....
Mounts may be welded or bolted to structure .....
Traction bars used to control VW axle beam rotation shall be .. solid bar ... heim rods ok ....

[snapback]61316[/snapback]

That's a grey area, to be sure. I'm not sure I'd want to defend it as a "traction bar".

That being said, I don't use anti-toe links on the prod car. If anything, the small deflection helps the car rotate!! People who have tried the toe links have reported that they make the car twitchy, possibly due to the rear axle binding under deflection?

MC

[Bildon]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 28 2005, 08:39 AM
That's a grey area, to be sure. I'm not sure I'd want to defend it as a "traction bar".

That being said, I don't use anti-toe links on the prod car. If anything, the small deflection helps the car rotate!! People who have tried the toe links have reported that they make the car twitchy, possibly due to the rear axle binding under deflection?

MC

[snapback]61335[/snapback]

>>That's a grey area, to be sure.
I don't think it's gray. I think the wording is quite clear.

The bar does rotate but not like a RWD high torque axle would. It rotates longitudinally due to sideloading removing camber and traction as it twists. Also depending on the car and setup I would not say the deflection is 'small'. On the WC Golf 4 the deflection is huge, toe changes over 1/2 an inch with Toyo race tires, 800lb springs, etc.

I've seen numerous Golfs using toes links effectively. One of the things you must do is make sure the bars are equal in length to the arc of the trailing arms or you'll get bind as you suggested. Also, if the bars are attached to the rear lower shock mount area you do nothing to crontrol the twisting moment which is created by the tire sideloading. (The force trying to roll the tire underneath the axle) So what is needed is that the rearward bar mount points need to be on and extended section that resists this sideloading / de-cambering force. Perhaps a picture will help.....
(excuse the welds) :angry:

[racer14itc]

Bill,

After reading the GCR definition of a traction bar and your argument, I concede the point. Nice reading of the rules.

Now I just have to go home and make one for myself and try it out.

MC

[Joe Camilleri]

Bill,

What do you think of these bars on A1 rear beams? The first one has rod ends that attach in the middle of the beam and the bottom of the trailing arm. The second one (in the next post) is bolted solid up higher on the trailing arm and about a third of the way on the beam.

Thanks.[attachmentid=71]

[Joe Camilleri]

Here's the second one.

[Bildon]

Originally posted by Joe Camilleri@Sep 30 2005, 01:21 PM
What do you think of these bars on A1 rear beams?

[snapback]61571[/snapback]

If the total travel is less that 2" then method #1 will work OK. But method #2 ?? That looks like it's prone to failure as the solid mounted tabs will fatigure, crack and break unless that's using the same metal the F1 cars use in place of rod ends

Is the outer mount on method #1 welded solid too? I fear that'll crack.

Here are some more pics. Drawing is of VW Motorsport factory design.

[Joe Camilleri]

Bill,

Now I see what that first photo was. The car that has the solid bars is sprung very hard, I'm not sure how much travel the rear suspension has but it's probably not much. They are bolted via plates at both ends. I have seen another car that has them welded.

Thanks for the photos and drawing, they are very helpful.

Joe

[Tom A]

Digging this back up, has anyone tried anti-toe links on an A1? IT Legality is not a concern.

Thanks,

Tom