looking for advice on building an itb car

[gran racing]

Cage $1,500 - $2,000. Sure you can, but you can also buy a Kirk or Autopower bolt in cage for much less. $2,000 plus for suspension, yup, the sky is the limit here. But you can get a nice suspension / springs for ~ $1,200 (I went with a custom Leda unit). Wheels - I bought 5 used VW rims from eBay. eBay and Home Depot are the best race shops around! And guess what, the rims are pretty darn light!! Tools - I just have the very, very basics and most are a Walmart special. But check out tag and estate sales. Before building the car, about all I could do is change the oil and brake pads. This is one of those areas that Jon's looking for also - learn by doing. It is pretty amazing what a person can learn to do when they have no money, are passionate about racing, and have great resources such as this forum. This past winter I even swapped my own engine (although I took like 40 digital pictures and spent hours labeling hoses that I had no idea what they were). But when it actually started? What an awesome feeling. An interesting bet would be to have a $10K or less budget to build a car. If it can't be a front runner, it is yours. If in one year it can, you pay the $10K and I keep the car. Any takers?

I also need to be stress for any novice reading this that I said a CAR that could be a front runner. It takes a significant amount of effort and work for the driver to be at that point too. As Jon realizes, it doesn't happen overnight either. (Jon often hears me whine about the work racing takes, how much freakn' tires - Hoosiers- cost. Driving the car is only a part of it.) Uggg! I'll finally stop with the How to Build a Front Winning Capable Car on a Budget discussion. (I can hear Jon saying Thank God!) I'll save that for another time and place.

Jeff - so I hear you started wearing Hoosier shoes? I still haven't gotten used to them and the added costs!! I kinda wish we were running on a spec Toyo. Those lasted forever!

Back to our regularly scheduled show....How much weight do you think the GTi would need to lose to be in the hunt?

[gran racing]

Guess I should add this. Kirk and Bill are totally correct - there are many costs that can be easy for someone to hide from themselves and thankfully spouses . Oil, brake cleaner, bolts, wire ties, etc. I certainly don't disagree with you guys there!

[JLawton]

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 22 2005, 07:35 AM

Jeff - so I hear you started wearing Hoosier shoes? I still haven't gotten used to them and the added costs!! I kinda wish we were running on a spec Toyo. Those lasted forever!

Back to our regularly scheduled show....How much weight do you think the GTi would need to lose to be in the hunt?

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The Hoosiers have been great. Still trying to get consistant on them. I cut 2 seconds off at NHIS, but can't do it on every lap. Getting some wheel spin issues..... You guys are introuble when I get it figured out!!

The bigger question is how much can you legally take off the GTi. 150lbs off would be nice and make it competitive, but I'm not sure I could do it........

[mgyip]

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 22 2005, 07:38 AM
there are many costs that can be easy for someone to hide from themselves

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Hidden costs? There are NO hidden costs in building a racecar. Ignored or overlooked costs maybe but unfortunately nothing is hidden when the ole credit card bill rolls in (smouldering) every month.

Agreed, it's possible to build an ITB car (or even a GT1 car for that matter) for $10K provided the builder is frugal and willing to work with less than brand new, perfect equipment. For a first-time builder, perfect parts are nice but not completely necessary b/c a rookie driver doesn't have a reference point per se (no offense, Jon). To quote a friend from my autocross days, "Don't do anything to the car until YOU know what to do". This STILL holds true - build the basic car with good parts but save your pennies and don't buy the super-trick "race only" parts until you know exactly what you need to make the car do what you want. In other words, don't follow the Rice crowd and add parts just b/c it's cool and everyone else has one.

In reference to VWs in the ITA/ITB field - I don't remember the yellow A2 at the Double MARRS. The white A2 and the yellow A1 are both locals - Rob and Guy respectively. The only VW missing was Larry's A1 16v Slorocco that ate a headgasket.

[madrabbit15]

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 22 2005, 12:35 PM
Cage $1,500 - $2,000. Sure you can, but you can also buy a Kirk or Autopower bolt in cage for much less. $2,000 plus for suspension, yup, the sky is the limit here. But you can get a nice suspension / springs for ~ $1,200 (I went with a custom Leda unit).

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This is just what I am talking about. Sure you can get a kirk or autopower cage, but thats not doing it "right" nor does it offer anywhere near the structural rigidity or safety of a custom 8 point cage. A racing suspension that is adjustable and non of this street crap is going to cost more than $2000. Sure it can be done for less, but that does not mean that it is near as good as the real stuff. I use to run tokicos and poly bushings and thought that that was good enough, and it was good enough to get by, but I did not know what I was missing until I went to custom valved double adjustables konis and delrin bushings. (Spherical would be even better.) There is a very big different between getting parts that work and getting the correct parts that do it better. I know folks who have spent probably 3 times on shocks than I have and I am sure that because they know how to use them, they are probably faster because of it. I do have no clue what parts some of you guys run, but can we not kidd ourselves into thinking that something like a tokico shock is as good as a advanced design one or that poly bushings are good as spherical. There is a big difference between doing it and doing it right. I can not afford to do it right on all of it, but I know the difference. When I said it would cost close to $15k, I said that was doing it right.


Derek

[67ITB]

Jon,
Shine will build race engines, BUT…they have been taking a long time so plan ahead and give yourself plenty of time. But it will be the most reliable, Highest HP, legal engine you can buy.

They wont do a cage for you, but will recommend Chris Howard (someone here can post his #) I don’t know it.

Shine is very busy right now as the Manager (Eli) is on his honeymoon for a few weeks, but they did recently hire another mechanic so the turn around time should improve.
My engine will be a winter project with them.

Come on Jeff you could stand to loose a few pounds!!!!!!!!!! You must be pushing 130-135LBS?
Also Jeff you have to get rid of all the undercoating on the INSIDE of your car!!!

Eli and I have been looking into it and it looks like we can get a sizeable chunk of weight off the car for very little $$ but a bunch of time and energy. Read the rulebook and go line by line on what you have and what you can remove or replace with a lighter version

And of course BOTH our drivers could stand to loose 30-35lbs(or more)

Jon Good luck with your project and if you need any help please just post your questions here and as you can see you will get a bunch of help, guidance assistance and most of all OPINIONS but I would much rather learn from someone else’s mistake than spend my time and money doing what has been proved ineffective

Good luck and welcome to the madness

Matt Bal

[gran racing]

I know Jon, I just said to you I wouldn't reply but... (Jon and I work together.)

but thats not doing it "right"

Says who, you? A Kirk or Autopower cage is just fine for what we're doing in IT. When I had my custom cage built, it cost $1,200. And I didn't say get some ricer struts. Re-read what I wrote. Again. I bought a custom non-adjustable Leda suspension; $1,200. They based the build upon my car, the type of tracks I drive, etc. I am extremely pleased with it! For someone new, adjustable struts is one more thing that you need to adjust and know how to tune properly. Many don't know how to do it properly and would be better off with non-adjustable. No where am I saying that $10K will be enough to built a fully developed car, then again I've never ever seen a fully developed car although Serra's Integras and CRXs are close. But a car capable of being at the front - yes. What about the Blethen's cars? Are they preped to the fullest? No. Do they kick some butt? You better believe it. Ask them if they'd take the $10K bet I mentioned before.

Some people have a car that is cabable of being a front runner but don't take the time to develop themselves. There are many things that people can do that don't cost much money. One great thing I did was have Tom Blaney instruct me at an open lap day. Definately worth the money. I also instruct at HPDEs which not only provides me with very cheap seat time, but also reinforces the basics by me coaching new and seasoned drivers.

When building a car, a person needs to take time and use some creativity. I finally added brake ducts this year. Bought some good hose that is intended for the purpose, then off to Home Depot and Stop & Shop. Some PVC goodies to pick up the air, then two good ole cans of peas for the vent to the rotors.

Matt, you're more then welcome to stop by and check out my car at the NARRC and we can debate some more over a few beers.

[Knestis]

I'm NOT picking on you personally, Dave but I've been racing IT cars since bolt-in cages (Autopower had the market cornered then) were required - i.e., welded in cages were illegal! I've seen a lot of those cages get crashed and, at this point in history and knowing what we know now, it borders on irresponsible for us as a community to endorse the idea of someone tear-assing around someplace like Road Atlanta in a car with a bolt-in cage. Regardless of whether it's legal or not.

Similarly - and I have very recent experience on this front - the difference between the safey provided by a cheap-o (if legal) seat and a really good one is priceless. If that particular $500 or whatever is what would keep a person from getting on the track, it is just possible that they can't REALLY afford to play this game.

Just one guy's opinion.

K

[mgyip]

Building a car from scratch, especially for a rookie is all about spending money in the right places. I completely agree with Kirk that the two best places to spend your money are on a custom cage and a drivers' seat. My first few seasons were with a bolt-in cage and the factory seat which was (and I think still is) legal with a back brace. I went so far as to crash-test the cage and bar and while I wasn't injured, it certainly made me think twice about "the bare minimum" in safety equipment.

Don't be as concerned about having the ultimate race shocks or the barely legal motor - as Jon has stated, he's about learning and having fun which is the right attitude. Very few folks who start out as "the fastest driver ever" actually end up with any trophies other than a bunch of bent sheetmetal and the ire of their fellow competitors. That stuff will come as he learns what it takes to be fast (one he figures it out, I'll be calling for pointers). The first goal is to be safe both in the car (read: safety equipment) and as a driver (read: head NOT impacted in one's rectum).

[gran racing]

Nope, I don’t think you’re picking on me personally and do have an appreciation of what I previously called hidden costs or things people don’t take into consideration when building a car. I personally think Kirk or Autopower cages are pretty decent, but I would recommend that it be welded versus bolted on. It is pretty amazing what people can get when they bring beer with them.

Kirk, take a step back for a minute. If someone really offered you a free $10K car if you could make it a front runner, you wouldn’t think about it? And this is using any ITB platform that is currently classed. I guess the part that really bugs me about these types of discussions is that I spent less then $10,000 on my car and I consider it capable of running up front. Do I personally make dumb mistakes that impact this outcome? Unfortunately yes. I guess many of us have different perceptions on what it takes to make a car a front running car. Haz-Matt made another good point – it is about spending money in the right places including safety gear.

[itbgti]

Let's also remember that spending $10k on the "right" car can make all the difference...Audi, Honda, Volvo, and some others are what are considered to be the "right" cars....spending $10K on a car that is not the ideal car for the class will get you no where.

Good discussion.

Regards,
Alan

[JamesB]

Well thats why I felt I made the right choice and suggest it as a possiblity to consider going with a built car. I got a great deal on a car that has already had some considerable development including a well fitted weld-in cage. I did have to make some changes tot he cage to make me feel safe, the drivers door bar was insanely high, and the passanger door bar I had changed to a double siemese style for better access to the car if needed and I can run a seat there if I run at a HPDE where I lack a solo signoff.

I think matt agrees I really did get a heck of a deal on this. I still have under 7k into the car, trailer, cage work, seat and safety gear. The only thing that could use money and wont see next season thanks to gas prices and my house is a diff with a better R&P with a full rebuild since its a 120k mile transmission.

I could have built a car for that much if I cut out some of the stuff I now have on the car that I didnt have to pay for. And yes, beer does go a long long way with some people.

[JLawton]

I lived both sides of this argument. If i didn't go half a** with my first car, I would have been leaning on the fence just watching. But knowing what I know now.....
Don't skimp on safety!

I don't know how much money Dave put into his car, but he certainly is a front runner. In fact, he's won at least one race in a very competitive region. I know the Blethan's drive the snots out of their cars and they certainly aren't built to 10/10s.

As the commercial says, "Just do it".


Matt B:

Originally posted by 67ITB@Sep 22 2005, 10:54 AM
And of course BOTH our drivers could stand to loose 30-35lbs(or more)

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Ahem, cough, cough....


Dave G, you've got e-mail!

[tcpip]

Despite the argument going on here, I do appreciate the discussion. Something I want to add to this, is that I'm not planning on building a front runner for year 1. So far I'm budgeting for the required safety equipment, and suspension. No engine, no tranny. I'll save those for years 2 and 3. I'm not looking at spending all the money required for a full prepped car, up front. If that was the case, then I'd more seriously consider just buying a prepped car. But with very little experience, it would seem that I have little chance of actually being a front runner, regardless of the car. By the time I get to the point of being a good driver, I'll have to start replacing worn out parts anyways. Maybe it's still cheaper (you'll never need to over bore the engine again, right?), but it's a cost that will come sooner I buy a used car now, instead of building a 'new' car later. (I'm mostly thinking of engine/tranny with the comment.)

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that building a car also aids in becoming a better driver. Sure, I can ask someone how a big rear bar increases latteral or motive traction (I know I don't know what I'm taking about), but for me it really helps to put the peices together. I know it helped when I watch the guy at Shine (damn, what was his name?) put their Real Street Kit into my A4 Jetta. He had me push the stock shock into a table and then a Bilstien HD. 'Ok, I see how this is going to change part of the handling of my car.' I did know basically how things were going to change (otherwise I wouldn't changing my suspension), but seeing the parts going into the car helped me more.

Another point. I don't buy computers, I build my own. Is it cheaper? No. Do I get the parts I want, based on how I'm going to use the computer? Yes. I'm not taking about buying a Dell, but something that's built for performance. I just want to spend the money on exactly the parts I want, based on the research I've done. Like I said, I really enjoy the building part of this as well as the research into what parts to use. I should also point out that I'm a 80/50 guy. I usually buy things (mostly electronics) that are 80% as good as the best performing part, that are usually 50% of the cost of the best part. I'm not going to spend every last penny that I have just to finish 1st place. It's not worth that much to me. Or at least, that's what I keep saying to myself.

[JamesB]

hahaha, on the weight loss thing, I started that in 2k. My goal is to shed about 10lbs by spring school.


Even then I dont think ill be under min weight, but I do plan to get the car weighed so I know where I am at.

[gran racing]

Let's also remember that spending $10k on the "right" car can make all the difference

Excellent point Alan! When I was in ITA, no matter how much money I spent on the car it would still be a mid-pack car.

Something I don't want to get lost in this discussion. The past two years when I was racing in ITA, I had some awesome battles with a certain MR2. Ironically we became friends through IT.com before we ever actually set foot on the track together. When I say close races, it would be very odd if we didn't quailfy right next to each other. We're talking hundreths of a second apart consistantly. Some of those races were the most fun I've ever had racing, and it was for 14th place / midpack. The grin I had when we came off the track was something else. This year I've been very fortunate to get the taste of running up front and even win one. I had this notion that winning would feel so much better then beating Jake for 14th. Nope, not really. And running against Jake using Toyos, unbuilt engine, no LSD was certainly much less expensive. Don't get me wrong, the win at a track I grew up attending races was really a great feeling especially knowing the capabilities of drivers I was with. At the same time, I can honestly say that winning isn't what IT is all about. (I do need to remind myself this and often am too hard on myself.)

[mgyip]

Originally posted by gran racing@Sep 22 2005, 01:25 PM
I can honestly say that winning isn't what IT is all about.

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Remember, I race in ITA against those blindly fast Miatas, Hondas and Nissans so I'm painfully aware that it's not all about winning. Then again, some of the best racing ain't at the front of the pack.

As for that weight loss thing - cutting off your head saves a quick 20-30lbs...

[tcpip]

I can honestly say that winning isn't what IT is all about.

From a spectator's point of view, it did seem like trying to climb back into position after spinning out and watching the whole field go by would be a fun challenge. (Oh poor Dave)

On a related note, mgyip you owe me $1 for the time it took me to wipe the dust of my clothes.

[JamesB]

hey at least you didnt smell like tire wall water!