WGI Fun one 9/17,9/18

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Sep 19 2005, 11:33 PM
Advertise it so the cheaters skip that event?

I prefer the surprise method myself.

(My theory is that a guy who DECIDES to cheat will also decide to avoid getting caught....we've seen cars change their performance overnight baased on protest threats, only to suddenly speed up at a later date. The guy who is the worst offender will attempt to slip thru the dragnet. On the other hand, having a random, but ever present threat that he might be nailed would do more, IMHO...)

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Maybe I didn't write it correctly, but 'to be named in impound' was my thought process. ANY race is a compliance race, but you just don't know if your number will be called until you take the checkers.

This way, the fearful ALWAYS stay away and everyone else has a chance of getting picked...

AB

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Sep 20 2005, 02:10 AM
Tom, just a point of order: "the stewards" do not and will not police the class for legality. The tech team is primarily there to make sure the car's comply with safety regulations and to implement technical inspections upon request of the stewards, divisional administrators, and/or competitors in the form of a protest.

I agree Greg, but it *is* the Stewards' job to make sure that a protest is handled properly and that the methods and techniques used follow the GCR. I know I wouldn't file a protest if I felt it was likely to be mishandled...

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by ShelbyRacer@Sep 20 2005, 07:14 PM
...but it *is* the Stewards' job to make sure that a protest is handled properly and that the methods and techniques used follow the GCR.

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I completely, absolutely, totally, 100% agree with you. Which is EXACTLY why, after last year's northeast protest debacle and a very unpleasant experience at this year's pre-season annual tech, I volunteered to become an SCCA technical inspector. I have worked hard to achieve the Divisional rating in one year, with an eye towards National as soon as practicable. I've already participated in one significant protest situation this year (along with another IT forum regular), where we were able to directly divert discussions, processes, and procedures forward positively. It was a lot like making sausage, but good things came out of it.

I cannot promise anything, especially given that I'm small fries in the very political hierarchy (and a competitor to boot), but it is my goal to see that these ideals are met whenever possible. - GA

[RP Performance]

Since you guys up north know your stewards and who to talk what about this. I am not sure if this is possible or not but what if Windell admitted to cheating at this event. What is the chance that his results can be withdrawn as well as his track record? I this might be a long shot but it is more unfair that he broke a track record this way, how much did he break it by? Not only is that a problem but think about seeing his name on the lap record stats for years to come and knowing how he got it

[megmeyer]

Originally posted by Rabbit05@Sep 20 2005, 12:42 PM
Meg,

Congrats on the lap record ! Both days !

John VanDenburgh
ITC Rabbit 05

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Thanks, John! With a little luck, I will be there, too!

Meg

[lateapex911]

Thats a good point, and a big one.

We had the same situation last year when Shane Hawthorne showed sudden speed, started winning and setting records.

We grouped together and protested and he was eventually found to be running domed high compression pistons.

Trouble is (among other issues) that the protest chief never interviewd him as to the history of the motor...they had no knowledge of it's length of use! Even MORE amazing is that there were 3 Stewards on the case, and NONE of them saw fit to delve into that aspect!

Historically, there was a Miata driver protested the year before in NER for a huge list of things, and he was found to have an exhaust manifold that was out of compliance. Compliance in this case being a completely untouched stock part. Trouble was that he found a crack in it, and made a bad desicion..weld instead of replace. So they spotted the repair, and asked him about it. he was honest, and admitted to making the repair in the begining of the year.

Now, you can argue about whether it was a performance benefit or not, but you can't argue that it was anything that was REALLY helpful, LOL... If he got .25 hp from it I'd be amazed.

But, he lost all his NARRC, NERRC and whatever series points, and was charged 7 points on his lic. Pretty major stuff, but I was told it was in line. An unmodified part has to be UN modified. Black and whte. So...............

So, Shane got caught with the pistons....and he was DQ'ed from the race. I was told the "Cost of rebuilding and the shame" were punishment enough by the protest steward.....
(See "a protest story" in rules and regs by me if you want the total story)

THe track record stood...until later that day when Anthony Serra rebroke it.

The trophies are still at his house, and the trophies are NOT in the hands of the deserving.

It is my understanding that wins, finishes and track records are taken away if you are found to be guilty of running a car in an illegal condition. How it happens though, I am not clear on.

(and sadly, it is dificult to prove that the car was illegal then, as not many are as honest as the Miata guy was)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Sep 20 2005, 09:00 AM
Maybe I didn't write it correctly, but 'to be named in impound' was my thought process. ANY race is a compliance race, but you just don't know if your number will be called until you take the checkers.

This way, the fearful ALWAYS stay away and everyone else has a chance of getting picked...

AB

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OH, cool, I am TOTALLY for that!

(Washer bottles, half missing parking light lenses and the like should be either mentioned or a "fix by next event" thing though...but big pistons etc...thats the big stuff.)

[Bildon]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Sep 20 2005, 09:29 PM
(Washer bottles, half missing parking light lenses and the like should be either mentioned or a "fix by next event" thing though...but big pistons etc...thats the big stuff.)

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Oh yes.. it's important to make that distinction!
IT is a regional class for entry level racing and is supposed to still be fun.
Let's not get carried away and piss off the poor guy who got his first ever "podium" only to find out later he'd been protested and penalized for missing a side marker light... that can be dealt with outside what we're discussing here which is about curbing performance enhacing mods=cheating.

I like what I'm reading here guys... how do we make it happen?

[Z73]

To answer your question Bret he beat the old record held by Anthony Serra (2004 ARRC winner and great driver) by 1.5 seconds. The old record was a 1:31:6...I did a 1:30:9 and Holmes did a 1:30:1. The short course was made for the way the Miata handles coming out of the bus stop so it is not out of the reach to turn a high 30 on that track. Just wait until you watch the tape Bret, the ITS GSR did not even pull me half as badly as the ITA car. With the turns there to help keep us close I finished 1.9 seconds back from the lead.

Anyway, I guess what is done is done and we can not change anything. I wish Anthony was there so we could be more informed on what would make a car that fast. By the way congrats on the recent addition to your family Anthony.

Ken

[JLawton]

Jake and Andy,
I like the helicopter pictures!! h34r:

Where's the second shooter!!??

[lateapex911]

Andy gets full credit for that! I swiped it cuz of all the BS that I and the rest of the ITAC were getting on the IS300 to ITS thread, which turned out to be about the E36 in ITS. Long story short, the E36 owners were not pleased with the tone of the discussion, and the ITAC guys were accused of some less than nice things...hence the black helecopter....a sarcastic point.

I will retrun to the norm once the thread dies it's tortured death, LOL.

[ITABrad]

Meg,
Great job, my ole' driver school buddy. We're proud of what you've accomplished. I would also like to thank you for your hard work in T&S when your not driving. Hope to see you in October somewhere.
Brad

[megmeyer]

Originally posted by ITABrad@Sep 21 2005, 05:29 PM
Meg,
Great job, my ole' driver school buddy. We're proud of what you've accomplished. I would also like to thank you for your hard work in T&S when your not driving. Hope to see you in October somewhere.
Brad

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Thanks Brad! It was really quite surprising to me. I am reading all this stuff about Windell, but I beat the long course record by 1.3, and the short course record by 1.5 seconds, and my car is no different than it was last year. There must have been something about the track conditions, or the weather, or something. A lot of records fell by quite a bit.

Oh well. I had a great time, and can't wait for the next race!

I may not make it to Summit for the October race. I have a concert to go to on Sat night, and I don't think the 3 hour each way (+, because of traffic) is worth a 1 day trip.

Will you be at the Pumpkin? I hope so!

Meg

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Sep 20 2005, 11:27 PM
I completely, absolutely, totally, 100% agree with you. Which is EXACTLY why, after last year's northeast protest debacle and a very unpleasant experience at this year's pre-season annual tech, I volunteered to become an SCCA technical inspector. I have worked hard to achieve the Divisional rating in one year, with an eye towards National as soon as practicable. I've already participated in one significant protest situation this year (along with another IT forum regular), where we were able to directly divert discussions, processes, and procedures forward positively. It was a lot like making sausage, but good things came out of it.

Hence one of the reasons I'll be entering the Stewards program next year or the following, with a real hankering to work mostly as a Tech Steward. My real goal is to be able to work as an advocate for those who put the time and energy into doing the right thing the right way. I think there are some very good Stewards out there who work tech at times, but I also think there are those who get "stuck" in tech because no one else wants the job. I honestly have little desire to be an Operating Steward or a Chief Steward, as I like to investigate before making decisions (I'm not real comfortable making a decision on the fly that could affect someone's race or someone's safety). I'd rather do Tech, Safety, or SOM where investigation is the emphasis (although not always the practice ).

Since I can't afford to drive right now (new baby on the way and a 2 1/2 year old already), I figure I'll try to contribute in other ways...

Greg (and anyone else)- are you coming down for the Mini-Convention?

[ITABrad]

Originally posted by megmeyer@Sep 22 2005, 12:55 AM
Thanks Brad! It was really quite surprising to me. I am reading all this stuff about Windell, but I beat the long course record by 1.3, and the short course record by 1.5 seconds, and my car is no different than it was last year. There must have been something about the track conditions, or the weather, or something. A lot of records fell by quite a bit.

Oh well. I had a great time, and can't wait for the next race!

I may not make it to Summit for the October race. I have a concert to go to on Sat night, and I don't think the 3 hour each way (+, because of traffic) is worth a 1 day trip.

Will you be at the Pumpkin? I hope so!

Meg

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Meg,
I think they are talking about a different kind of speed when speaking of Windell. You are talking about track conditions and grip, while they are talking about tremendous straightaway speed.
I would like to do the Pumpkin. I have'nt been to Nelson for three years. It sometimes doesn't make sense to me to tow to Summit Point, VIR , and the Glen when I've got Nelson 40 minutes away, Beaverun is 30 minutes away, and Mid Ohio 2 hours, but the MARRS Series was to tempting. It's not like logic has anything to do with this stuff anyway.
Brad

[Bildon]

Originally posted by megmeyer@Sep 21 2005, 08:55 PM
There must have been something about the track conditions, or the weather, or something. A lot of records fell by quite a bit.

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It's the curbing..or lack-thereof. The IRL cars couldn't handle the NASCAR curbing so it was all removed and now it's basically just paint with grooves in it

The biggest changes for me were the 'bus-stop' and T1.
You can straighten the 'bus-stop' chicane a lot now that the first curb is flat.
And it's no longer a penalty to overshoot T1. You can really late brake now and if you overshoot T1...no biggie, the fast RWD cars were ALL way out there. I know I was grabbing 5th gear way before T2 this year where in the past I was shifting after turn-in or even leaving it in 4th up the hill.

[megmeyer]

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 22 2005, 02:32 PM
It's the curbing..or lack-thereof. The IRL cars couldn't handle the NASCAR curbing so it was all removed and now it's basically just paint with grooves in it

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Hmmmmm. I didn't think about that. But that was there for the July sprints, and I only turned a 2:32 something on the long course. I know I am NOT using the runoff room in T1, but I am using the 'curb' in the bus stop, and I agree with you there!

Oh, well. I guess I will stop worrying about it, and just be grateful for the records!

Meg

[joeg]

Meg is correct. They did not really change the track (curbing, etc.) after the July race. It was done early this year.

Weather and temp (dry, cooler and calm) along with fresh rubber--remember the big storm on Friday night) are the keys.

[Bildon]

Originally posted by joeg@Sep 22 2005, 02:18 PM
It was done early this year.

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Right, which is why every class record (in IT anyway) fell in July.
July was very hot too. I've often wondered what conditions really make for a faster track. I'd like to see a real scientific analysis of that.

On Saturday everybody was ~2 seconds slower than in July. We were all making up hypothesis about the 'thick' air, etc. Weird.

[ITABrad]

Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 22 2005, 08:26 PM
Right, which is why every class record (in IT anyway) fell in July.
July was very hot too. I've often wondered what conditions really make for a faster track. I'd like to see a real scientific analysis of that.

On Saturday everybody was ~2 seconds slower than in July. We were all making up hypothesis about the 'thick' air, etc. Weird.

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I wish the weather would only make ME faster.