Porsche 944S

[JeffYoung]

Tim, thanks for the great post. I run a "marginal" ITS car as well (Triumph TR8, tons of torque but that is about it) and I understand some of the problems you guys face when thinking of running ITS.

At the same time, I really wish there was something that could be done to get all of the race built 944s (s and non-s) to run ITS, which is a great race series. I've obviously never run PCA, but I have some experience attending BMWCCA races and understand your comments on the "marque-based" series. SCCA is a bit more wild and wooly, but to me feels more like a true semi-professional race series. Plus, the thing I really like about ITS is that different makes with different strengths and weaknesses battle it out. Single marque racing (I run a Spec Miata occasionally) can get a bit boring, although I of course understand that with PCA different types of Porsches have different types of strengths and weaknesses.

I ran the NASA event at Roebling (where you there?) for fun and was shocked by the number of 944 race cars in attendance. WE (SCCA) SHOULD FIND A WAY TO GET THESE GUYS RUNNING ITS.

Based on what you've said, I'm not sure that a weight break to the 944 is going to help. Instead, the 325s have to be slowed or moved to a new, higher class.

If this happened, and the 944 could race semi-competively with RX7s, 240sxs, 240zs and GSR Integras, do you think the PCA and NASA cars would run ITS? Again, it seems to me that of all the non-SCCA race cars out there that COULD be running ITS, the gaggle of 944(s) in the SEDiv is the most attractive and the one that the ITAC and CRB should do the most to attract.

P.S. -- I love racing with 944s. They are the exact opposite of my car: I'm all torque and can turn on a dime (short wheelbase), but have no brakes, aero stinks top end and high speed stability is a bit questionable. Plus, putting the power down can be a problem sometimes. I have a blast racing with the 924s and 944s that do show up in ITS. Wish there were more of them.

P.S.S. -- Thanks again for the post. Very informative.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Since I don't see the answer here: stock figures for the 944 S2 are:
208 HP and 207 ft-lb

30 more hp that the S and 50 more than the 'vanilla' 944.

If the CRB approves our 'correction' proposal, you would see the 944 lose some weight - a good chunk.

AB

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 15 2005, 01:14 PM
Since I don't see the answer here: stock figures for the 944 S2 are:
208 HP and 207 ft-lb

30 more hp that the S and 50 more than the 'vanilla' 944.

If the CRB approves our 'correction' proposal, you would see the 944 lose some weight - a good chunk.

AB

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Cant get this thing to drop the quote,sorry about that.

The 944 cant run past mid pack in IT. The 944S cant be built much over 200hp legal in IT and that takes cash to get it that far. The 944S2 is a good maybe car for the BMW. Should the BMW be moved?? or let another car run with it in IT??

You have the same thing with the 944S2 as the others. Comes from the factory with good hp and takes a ton of cash to make any more,very little more in IT trim.
There would be a lot of cars coming from other groups to run IT with the 944S2 power plant. The woods are full of the 944 family and they are cheap compaired to the BMW. They could run with the NASA 944 cup as a Super Cup car and still run with SCCA IT as well as HSR and SVRA. Real good bang for the buck from any view.
944S2 engine with exhaust and intake upgrades and BANG, ITS race car for far less money than a Jon Millege built 944 or 944S car.
Sounds like the sprit and entent of IT racing from the get go. Change the nose and its a 944S2. 75 more cars in the SE alone in IT if it were done. Could do as much for IT as the RX7 did for production class a few years back. Something to think about and just my 2 cents of thinking.

Lawrence

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by latebrake@Dec 15 2005, 01:22 PM
Cant get this thing to drop the quote,sorry about that.

The 944 cant run past mid pack in IT. The 944S cant be built much over 200hp legal in IT and that takes cash to get it that far. The 944S2 is a good maybe car for the BMW. Should the BMW be moved?? or let another car run with it in IT??

You have the same thing with the 944S2 as the others. Comes from the factory with good hp and takes a ton of cash to make any more,very little more in IT trim.
There would be a lot of cars coming from other groups to run IT with the 944S2 power plant. The woods are full of the 944 family and they are cheap compaired to the BMW. They could run with the NASA 944 cup as a Super Cup car and still run with SCCA IT as well as HSR and SVRA. Real good bang for the buck from any view.
944S2 engine with exhaust and intake upgrades and BANG, ITS race car for far less money than a Jon Millege built 944 or 944S car.
Sounds like the sprit and entent of IT racing from the get go. Change the nose and its a 944S2. 75 more cars in the SE alone in IT if it were done. Could do as much for IT as the RX7 did for production class a few years back. Something to think about and just my 2 cents of thinking.

Lawrence

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Please don't use the BMW as the benchmark. It is one of the few cars in ITS that doesn't fit the current process. I believe the 944 (if it get approved for a correction) and the 944S fit the parameters...will they run up front everywhere? Who knows - but you can't class cars based on 'under-prep'. Every car costs a different amount to prep to the rules...the Porsche is just costs more than others. That is no reason to give it a special allowance that is not consistant with the IT rules.

AB

[timo944]

I agree with you Andy - the E36 325 is an anomoloy in ways and a disappointment for the others running IT. It can't be a basis for comparison. In my opinion it's far too fast for ITS, but the GCR states somethgin to the effect of "if it ain't fast enough, don't blame us," so there is little room for complaining. Maybe with the compeition adjustments things can improve.

To answer your question Jeff, I believe that you could get more 944's in ITS by making it competitive by reducing weight (difficult) or adjusting fatser cars (E36 and RX7) to make them slower. I'd hate top see a class split in ITS, and I think that will only hurt IT. You could also move the 944 to ITA, but that may not be attractive with the CRX and such around.

There are historical factors here too:
- until recently the SCCA did not recognize PCA licenses. I once called a licensing chairman who told me that in his opinion PCA was not real racing because of the non-contact rule. That has filtered to many PCA racers who realize that racing with a non-contact rule is as hard as or harder than allowing minor rubbing. There are ome sore feelings out there about this
- Porsches in general have always been out-classed because they are a "performance" marque (not my opinion, but the opinion of many)
- The rules for IT and PCA are very different, as I detailed earlier, so it means removing the interior, rebalncing, etc between every race which many people do not want to do.

The next race for the Atlanta group is the NASA race in March. I will try to convince the guys to sign up for the March SARRC/ECR race as well, and maybe that will generate some interest. It woudl be good if a bunch of (non-competitive) 944's show up. Maybe if some other ITS drivers show up we can convince everybody!

BTW about the S2 - this car is in the same class as the 944Turbo in PCA. It has gobs of torque and good power. This years fast lap in the PCA race was 1:44.7 at 2932 lbs, and I've seen them run faster. I used to own a 1989 S2 street car, and was turning very fast laps as RA. It is not a candidate for ITS, but maybe for ITE. Of course, if they do let it in, I'll be the first on the track with one!

TB

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 16 2005, 11:22 AM
Please don't use the BMW as the benchmark. It is one of the few cars in ITS that doesn't fit the current process. I believe the 944 (if it get approved for a correction) and the 944S fit the parameters...will they run up front everywhere? Who knows - but you can't class cars based on 'under-prep'. Every car costs a different amount to prep to the rules...the Porsche is just costs more than others. That is no reason to give it a special allowance that is not consistant with the IT rules.

AB

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I know,the BMW thing just came out. The last ITS race I saw at VIR had an "orange BMW' 16 seconds ahead of the second place car and it got worse. The BMW was short shifing so bad the driver could have been eating fries down the back strech.

How good was the second place car. Dont know, but he did get the second place spot with a whole field of IT cars so it had to be a lease an OK car. Right now if you arent driving a BMW you are going to be following one.
I like the BMW and dont want to sound like I am beating them up. If a ITS car has to be 5 years old then every year we count out cars with around 200 hp because thats all they are making now. Makes it easy to see the end of the road from here. Production has car 30+ year old cars and working hard to protect them.

The gas crunch may just play into ITS if the 200 hp bench mark goes away,right now you are looking a a big gap in cars in a few years.

Lawrence

[JeffYoung]

The second place car was Steve Echerich. A great guy, and one of the best prepped and fastest Second Gen RX7s you will find. He finished second in the SARRC points to Kent Thompson this year and believe me, his car is fast. While Nick was new to the track, Steve and Nick had an incredible battle in the SARRC race at VIR in March. Very equally matched it seemed.

The orange BMW is also incredibly well built and incredibly well driven.

Make of that what you will.

[Geo]

Originally posted by timo944@Dec 16 2005, 11:52 AM
To answer your question Jeff, I believe that you could get more 944's in ITS by making it competitive by reducing weight (difficult) ....

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I heard that from several folks. Then I had a frank discussion about the 944 with Jon Milledge and in his opinion a carefully prepared 10/10 944 could legally get down to 2500 lbs. That's not a typo. The 944 has a buttload of sound deadening that weighs a LOT. I cannot count how many times I've taken stuff off/out of the car I'm building and have been shocked just how heavy it is because it looked like nothing. There also is sound deadening that can only be removed by dipping the car (a considerable amount of stuff that can't be otherwise removed).

I think the 944 will at least have a attractive chance in ITS if the change proposed is approved. I don't think it will outrun a well prepped E36 (with proposed changes) or a RX-7, but it won't be passing fodder for ITA cars anymore.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 16 2005, 08:22 AM
Please don't use the BMW as the benchmark. It is one of the few cars in ITS that doesn't fit the current process. I believe the 944 (if it get approved for a correction) and the 944S fit the parameters...will they run up front everywhere? Who knows - but you can't class cars based on 'under-prep'. Every car costs a different amount to prep to the rules...the Porsche is just costs more than others. That is no reason to give it a special allowance that is not consistant with the IT rules.

AB

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Actually, I don't think the 944 is any more costly to build properly than any other car. I was told it would be expensive, but the only thing that is more expensive than say our SE-R is the engine. I don't know what a Sunbelt SR20DE would run, but I'd guesstimate 7.5k or so. Rumor has it a Milledge IT engine is around 10k. In the grand scheme of building an IT car, that cost is not huge.

The chassis stuff is just as expensive in the SE-R and the only advantage the 944 has is that some parts already exist for the 944 that would currently have to be custom made for the SE-R (a costly proposition potentially).

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 17 2005, 05:17 AM
I heard that from several folks. Then I had a frank discussion about the 944 with Jon Milledge and in his opinion a carefully prepared 10/10 944 could legally get down to 2500 lbs. That's not a typo. The 944 has a buttload of sound deadening that weighs a LOT. I cannot count how many times I've taken stuff off/out of the car I'm building and have been shocked just how heavy it is because it looked like nothing. There also is sound deadening that can only be removed by dipping the car (a considerable amount of stuff that can't be otherwise removed).

I think the 944 will at least have a attractive chance in ITS if the change proposed is approved. I don't think it will outrun a well prepped E36 (with proposed changes) or a RX-7, but it won't be passing fodder for ITA cars anymore.

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Still needs to be a ITA car, having run one myself I dont think 2500 can happen, but then I am not 150 lbs myself

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 18 2005, 01:29 AM
Still needs to be a ITA car, having run one myself I dont think 2500 can happen, but then I am not 150 lbs myself

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An ITA car? Is it the slowest car in ITS???

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 17 2005, 01:17 AM
I heard that from several folks. Then I had a frank discussion about the 944 with Jon Milledge and in his opinion a carefully prepared 10/10 944 could legally get down to 2500 lbs. That's not a typo. The 944 has a buttload of sound deadening that weighs a LOT. I cannot count how many times I've taken stuff off/out of the car I'm building and have been shocked just how heavy it is because it looked like nothing. There also is sound deadening that can only be removed by dipping the car (a considerable amount of stuff that can't be otherwise removed).

I think the 944 will at least have a attractive chance in ITS if the change proposed is approved. I don't think it will outrun a well prepped E36 (with proposed changes) or a RX-7, but it won't be passing fodder for ITA cars anymore.

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My E-Productin car has lexan,no sound material,carbon fenders,glass hood and is 2505# with me in it. 205# I know I could drop that some!!! It has an over built cage and that may account for the extra weight for the car. If I had the car dipped I could maybe get another 30 to 50 # off but I think that is overstated.
The NASA 944 Cup group has cars with extra rewards fat on the floor boards. Didnt change the lap times.

These cars are not hard to build and wont cost anymore that others and just may be cheaper because of the cost of the donor car. The engines are a little high but you arent going to get a ton of HP in ITS prep anyway so why not just run a low hr engine. Tons of cars,tons of aftermarket parts,lots of cars running somewhere already. If it got moved to ITA they would surely take a look at SCCA again.

Get the S2 approved at a good weight and you have new blood for sure.

Lawrence

[Fastfred92]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 18 2005, 07:49 PM
An ITA car? Is it the slowest car in ITS???

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Slowest ITS car is a open ended question b/c of prep level, that being said here in the SE it is very common to see mid level prep 944's get blasted by many ITA cars. The level of prep is not going to change, there is no incentive to 10/10 a 944. Get any of our adhoc / rules guys to explain with their mythical hp/lbs stuff how it is a S car??? This is a Porsche despite its roots and Porsche is not known for leaving tons of HP on the cutting room floor, its closer to maxed out in street form than many other IT candidates. The 80's tech DME is not overly mod friendly either. Appx. same HP as Integra (94-95 ITA cars)and Integra has better engine architecture for responding to mods, Integra has better suspension ( coilovers ) and tons more aftermarket support. I think you will see similar numbers with older Integra, 240SX etc etc. Dump weight if it make you feel good but it should be a A car at or below its current weight.

[Andy Bettencourt]

First off, coilovers are legal for everyone so that has nothing to do with an IT comparison. Funny how Integra guys argue that they are way behing in suspension/drivetrain layout yet you think the 944 is worse.

Everyone get an idea for the types of letter we see?

The 944 makes 157 stock hp. The RX-7 makes 160. We know the 7 responds much better to IT prep - how much difference in weight do you think these two cars should have in order to compete with each other?

We have some of the best prepped Integra's in the country up here in the NE. Top prep 944's from 3-4 years ago have run faster than track records - both at LRP and WGI long. Results are not the end-all but they sure raise a flag here.

You don't think the 944 at say, 2550, would make it a legitimate choice?

AB

[timo944]

So what is the proposal for 944 weight? It's 2715 today.

Also - I believe that coil-overs are not leagl for the rear of a 944, but let me check, hang on.....................................OK - it says:

"Springs of any origin may be used, provided they are of the same number and type as originally fitted, i.e. coil, leaf, torsion bar......... "

I know that it later says that threaded body shock/struts are permitted, but I don;t think that permits coil overs in place of the torsion bars. Let me know if I'm wrong!

Having said that, I think the torsion bars work OK, except you can't really change them at the track.


Tim

[its66]

I believe that there were a few M030 optioned cars-924S's anyway, maybe 944's also. These cars had a coil over in the rear. They may have been in addition to the torsion bar...

So, would it be legal to "create" an M030 car???

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 19 2005, 07:04 PM
Slowest ITS car is a open ended question b/c of prep level, that being said here in the SE it is very common to see mid level prep 944's get blasted by many ITA cars. The level of prep is not going to change, there is no incentive to 10/10 a 944. Get any of our adhoc / rules guys to explain with their mythical hp/lbs stuff how it is a S car??? ................. Appx. same HP as Integra (94-95 ITA cars)and Integra has better engine architecture for responding to mods, Integra has better suspension ( coilovers ) and tons more aftermarket support. I think you will see similar numbers with older Integra, 240SX etc etc. Dump weight if it make you feel good but it should be a A car at or below its current weight.

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I'll check with an adhoc guy on the lbs/hp stuff......

OK, an ITS 240SX puts in the 150 range to the ground...the 944 is closer to 187? IIRC. And it's a pretty nice motor for torque too.

That's close to a 35 or so hp difference.

The chassis was regarded as the best balanced, best handling chassis for nearly a decade. I have owned an RX-7 turbo or two, and driven scads of 944s, 944S's, and 944Turbos, and faulting the chassis is tough to do....in stock form it certainly had the RX-7 in it's sights. I think that coil over "helper" springs could be very useful tuning tools.

Of course I wasn't comparing half efforts and full efffort cars.

The question still stands...is the 944 the slowest (or the most over-gunned) car in ITS?

Forget the E36 for a minute....if the car were to stay in S, how would you make it appropriate?

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911+Dec 20 2005, 12:31 AM-->

I'll check with an adhoc guy on the lbs/hp stuff......

OK, an ITS 240SX puts in the 150 range to the ground...the 944 is closer to 187? IIRC. And it's a pretty nice motor for torque too.

That's close to a 35 or so hp difference.

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[/b]

Actually, the 8v 944 puts out 185 at the crank in full tilt boogie ITS trim which would put it in almost the exact same place as the 240SX. I'll bet torque is almost the same as well.

<!--QuoteBegin-lateapex911@Dec 20 2005, 12:31 AM
The chassis was regarded as the best balanced, best handling chassis for nearly a decade. I have owned an RX-7 turbo or two, and driven scads of 944s, 944S&#39;s, and 944Turbos, and faulting the chassis is tough to do....in stock form it certainly had the RX-7 in it&#39;s sights. I think that coil over "helper" springs could be very useful tuning tools.

Of course I wasn&#39;t comparing half efforts and full efffort cars.

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But why compare stock cars? Last I knew we don&#39;t race &#39;em stock.

I&#39;m not sure if it&#39;s the most out gunned car in ITS. There are certainly a bunch that had been poorly classified. It&#39;s certainly the most out gunned car that exists in more than one or two examples. I fear the 944 will suffer the same fate at the 1st gen RX-7. We&#39;ll have to wait to see what happens with the proposal in front of the CRB.

[latebrake]

Originally posted by Geo@Dec 20 2005, 09:37 AM
Actually, the 8v 944 puts out 185 at the crank in full tilt boogie ITS trim which would put it in almost the exact same place as the 240SX. I&#39;ll bet torque is almost the same as well.
But why compare stock cars? Last I knew we don&#39;t race &#39;em stock.

I&#39;m not sure if it&#39;s the most out gunned car in ITS. There are certainly a bunch that had been poorly classified. It&#39;s certainly the most out gunned car that exists in more than one or two examples. I fear the 944 will suffer the same fate at the 1st gen RX-7. We&#39;ll have to wait to see what happens with the proposal in front of the CRB.

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The 924 ran in D production years ago and was a full coil over front and rear. The mo30 was only coil overs in the front and was a sway bar front and rear combo with larger T bars for the rear.

unless something has changed the t bars have to stay in ITS.

My car was built by a good mch and racer . Milledge parts and data logger computer,no balance shaft and crank fired. It made 186 hp on the engine dyno and put 148 hp to the wheels. Not guessing or internet hp but head the tape hp.

If I could get the 2550# weight I would build another ITS 944. I dont think it will run up front but would be a lot more fun. NASA runs 944 in ITS trim. If you get the 2550#,they get it as well. They stand a better chance running with each other than the current ITS cars in SCCA. If its lower weight they will try SCCA again,may stay or at least run more often.

Lawrence

[Andy Bettencourt]

T-bar rear - yes...wasn&#39;t thinking along those lines when replying to the comment.

The highest stock HP ITS 240SX makes 155. 2 less than the 944. *IF* the 944 was reduced to 2550, it would be 100lbs less than the 240SX.

So lets compare:

240SX
155hp * 25% IT-prep increase = 194hp.

944
157hp * Jon M. know best chp = 185hp.

I think these cars are just fine in the same class. The 944 may not be a world-beater in ITS but it is no slam-dunk in ITA.

AB