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Thread: Porsche 944S

  1. #21
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    Originally posted by Geo@Nov 10 2005, 03:39 PM
    A truly all-out engine should put down well over 125 to the wheels. Milledge engines put out 185 at the crank. I cannot believe there are 30% driveline losses. I think the problem is a) nobody but Jon is doing serious development of these engines, and most people are not willing to go the distance to really get that level of development. I know in the 944 community there is a belief that there is little to nothing that can be done for these engines, but when Jon can get 185 for an IT legal engine I know most people just aren't putting in the effort. That said, I won't have a Milledge engine. I don't know everything that Jon does, but I do know the key ingredient that makes the difference between a good and a great engine. I won't tell because I bought Jon's $100 ITS primer and I believe that information is proprietary (it's not mine to give). Since you have Milledge engines, it might be worty a conversation with Jon about this.

    The 2.7 does not make a good ITS engine. The weight premium that is paid for the displacement is way too much. A fully built 2.7 ITS engine only makes a few more hp than the 2.5. I also know what causes that difference, but again, I consider that info proprietary.

    I'm sorry about Dave. Everything I've read about him as a person has been pretty stellar. I also heard he set a class lap record on his last race lap.
    [snapback]65110[/snapback]
    Everything Jon has told me has been right on the money. No pum intended. A stock off the street engine will make about 125 at the wheels. Just a little intake and exhaust fixes a lot of that. The #2 bearing can be worked out if you take care of the right foot problem. Just like most engines. I have had friends race these cars for as long as 4 years with only oil changes , plugs, pads and tires.

    It would bring a lot of them back if it ran in ITA or got some sort of weight break. Otherwise its going to take a lot of money to build a Milledge or Sunbelt power plant. There goes the cheap racing part. The 2.5 944 can run in SCCA,NASA,SVRA,HSR. you can race your brains out if you have time and money and there are a ton of them around cheap. I live 17 min from VIR and have cut my grass in the morning and raced that afternoon. I love to tell that one.

    Lawrence

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by latebrake@Nov 10 2005, 09:16 AM
    The 2.5 car in ITS skin wont run up front even with a good engine. They handle good but wont make the power. About 120 to 125 at the wheels ITS legal.
    Well I have to disagree on one point.

    My 944 motor puts out 134 rwhp as well as all the 60 or 70 west coast 944 spec race cars. Most of our cars run 129-135 rwhp. These are in motor prepared LESS than ITS allowables. (my motor is a stock 9.5:1 CR pistons, 140k mile block & rings, Stock header, test pipe stock muffler, aftermarket DME chip, freshish stock headwork). Of course this was done on purpose to keep the cars a little cheaper.

    Supposedly Jon Millegdge can build a 183 bhp ITS legal motor. That should put down about 158 or so to the wheels. That the MOST Hp I figure you can get from a ITS legal motor. Jon knows his stuff and due limited piston supplies even that power may tough to get.

    Still with 158 rwhp at 2715 lbs the cars are just too low on hp and have too much weight to be strong in ITS given the currnet cars out there.


    Now on the west coast NASA 944-spec is popular for a few reason.

    1) most folks are "Porsche" types so racing a Porsche is desire of theirs in general and this class offer this for about as low as you can. 10k gets you race winning car. (built or bought)

    2) The rules in many way are more restrictive than IT on cost items, shocks, bushings, engine prep, and springs, but more flexiable on weight savings/low cost stuff. Weight removal is more liberal with lower weight (2600 lbs with driver), door glass can come out, lightweight batteries, drilled rotors and a few other things. Also we have spec wheel and tire Toyo RA-1.

    3) It is a class philosophy that strong cars can be build in your backyard and don't need shop. Fancy engine builds are discouraged greatly. Yep as of this time you don't need a shop to build you class winning car. It can be done in your backyard with a junkyard motor or if you want a stock "build it at home" motor.

    4) drivers in the class are all pretty friendly and help the new drivers get up to speed and with car prep. The biggest goal is to have fun and more drivers at speed means more fun.


    For me racing in IT on the west coast is not a goal of mine. Most due to the motor work the car will need to be competitive. Hell even the weights were changed to allow a 183 bhp milledge motor car to be competitive I would not get in IT. Reaons being is the cost for that Milledge motor is extreme and simply there more 944 spec cars than IT cars in this area.
    Joe P.
    Porsche 944 Racer

  3. #23
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    Actually Joe, about the only things we can do in IT that you cannot do legally are:

    1) Cold Air Intake - but since nobody makes an effective one or has been able to get one to make power to this point, it's a moot point.

    2) Port matching - not worth much hp.

    3) Increase CR a half point - good for about 3-5 hp tops.

    4) Alternate engine management within the stock ECU box - but so far there is nothing that fits that would work wtih the stock wiring harness so this is also a moot point.

    In the end, the only that really keeps your cars from making more hp is people willing to spend the dough. You can do all the little things Jon does that makes hp and I have no doubt he could build a legal engine for Spec 944 that would make within 5-6 of what his IT engines make.

    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by Geo@Nov 14 2005, 02:13 PM
    Actually Joe, about the only things we can do in IT that you cannot do legally are:

    1) Cold Air Intake - but since nobody makes an effective one or has been able to get one to make power to this point, it's a moot point.

    2) Port matching - not worth much hp.

    3) Increase CR a half point - good for about 3-5 hp tops.

    4) Alternate engine management within the stock ECU box - but so far there is nothing that fits that would work wtih the stock wiring harness so this is also a moot point.

    In the end, the only that really keeps your cars from making more hp is people willing to spend the dough. You can do all the little things Jon does that makes hp and I have no doubt he could build a legal engine for Spec 944 that would make within 5-6 of what his IT engines make.
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    I picked up a 1987 924S just to drive to work or DE days with PCA. 25+mpg to drive to work was the big interest. I have a Millege engine I tried to sell here and it just may find its way into the car one way or the other. I dont think you can get much more than fun in IT with the 2.5 engine so the NASA cup is going to keep most of that crowd. The 944S may keep up better but still not a front runner if the BMW is around with a skilled driver. Lots of others as well. Enduro racing is the 944's cup of tea anyway. A good turbo car can turn out a good performance in that kind of racing.

    lawrence

  5. #25
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    Originally posted by latebrake@Nov 14 2005, 11:22 AM
    I picked up a 1987 924S just to drive to work or DE days with PCA. 25+mpg to drive to work was the big interest. I have a Millege engine I tried to sell here and it just may find its way into the car one way or the other. I dont think you can get much more than fun in IT with the 2.5 engine so the NASA cup is going to keep most of that crowd.
    [snapback]65333[/snapback]
    Stay tuned. That may change.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  6. #26
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    Originally posted by Geo@Nov 14 2005, 11:13 AM
    You can do all the little things Jon does that makes hp and I have no doubt he could build a legal engine for Spec 944 that would make within 5-6 of what his IT engines make.
    [snapback]65328[/snapback]
    Well try that and I am sure we will change the rules to stop it SOMEHOW.

    I know we have gone on about this, but one goal of 944 spec is to run simple stock motors. So far all have kept to that even though some have tried to push the edges. I still have not seen spec car make milledge numbers on the track. (and I hope I never will).

    That does not belong in our class.. :P

    It is one the big things that seperates 944 spec cars from IT cars.

    IT Expects full tilt motors to the limits.

    944-spec expects and wants junkyard motors to run strong and will do things to keep it that way.
    Joe P.
    Porsche 944 Racer

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by 944-spec#94@Nov 14 2005, 06:14 PM
    Well try that and I am sure we will change the rules to stop it SOMEHOW.

    I know we have gone on about this, but one goal of 944 spec is to run simple stock motors. So far all have kept to that even though some have tried to push the edges. I still have not seen spec car make milledge numbers on the track. (and I hope I never will).

    That does not belong in our class.. :P

    It is one the big things that seperates 944 spec cars from IT cars.

    IT Expects full tilt motors to the limits.

    944-spec expects and wants junkyard motors to run strong and will do things to keep it that way.
    [snapback]65359[/snapback]
    The 944 came with 9.5 to 10.9 pistons during its life. Is the 10.9 legal in ITS? I was just wondering because I have a production engine with 10.9 pistons. All I have to do is change the head to legal ITS and install the balance shafts and BANG I have an ITS engine again. Right/wrong?

    Lawrence


  8. #28
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    Originally posted by 944-spec#94@Nov 14 2005, 03:14 PM
    Well try that and I am sure we will change the rules to stop it SOMEHOW.

    I know we have gone on about this, but one goal of 944 spec is to run simple stock motors. So far all have kept to that even though some have tried to push the edges. I still have not seen spec car make milledge numbers on the track. (and I hope I never will).

    That does not belong in our class.. :P

    It is one the big things that seperates 944 spec cars from IT cars.

    IT Expects full tilt motors to the limits.

    944-spec expects and wants junkyard motors to run strong and will do things to keep it that way.
    [snapback]65359[/snapback]
    I don't see any possible way to change your rules to disallow it. Jon does not use any non-factory parts. The only things he does for an IT engine that you don't allow is raising the CR and port matching. Oh, and he balances. But, you cannot even stop that. Even in showroom stock racing they balance and blueprint engines by careful part selection.

    As much as you like to think otherwise, as I said a long time ago, the only thing keeping your engines from being expensive crate engines is the willingness of the competitors to spend the money. That's it. I'm not dissng your series, but just discussing the realities. There is absolutely nothing you can do through the rules to prevent it.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by latebrake@Nov 14 2005, 03:51 PM
    The 944 came with 9.5 to 10.9 pistons during its life. Is the 10.9 legal in ITS? I was just wondering because I have a production engine with 10.9 pistons. All I have to do is change the head to legal ITS and install the balance shafts and BANG I have an ITS engine again. Right/wrong?

    Lawrence
    [snapback]65368[/snapback]
    Actually, the highest compression pistons available in a US delivered car are 10.2:1. As for the rest of your question, I wouldn't have the slightest clue since I don't know what-all you've done to your engine.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  10. #30
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    Originally posted by Geo@Nov 14 2005, 09:56 PM
    Actually, the highest compression pistons available in a US delivered car are 10.2:1. As for the rest of your question, I wouldn't have the slightest clue since I don't know what-all you've done to your engine.
    [snapback]65380[/snapback]
    I had an 88 with 10.2 pistons. The 10.9 are euro pistons. I am sure there was a ton of them imported into the US but dont know what the bench mark for ITS is on this sort of thing. The rest of the engine is stock except for balancing the rods and perp drilling the crank. The 944 runs as a limited prep car in E/P so they dont allow killer mods to the engine. The current engine in my car may make 215hp at the flywheel but that is with a stand alone computer and other tricks. Thanks for the help.

    Lawrence.


  11. #31
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    Originally posted by Geo@Nov 14 2005, 06:54 PM
    There is absolutely nothing you can do through the rules to prevent it.
    [snapback]65379[/snapback]
    Well... one option we have relates to the engine management. If needed we can with relative ease go to stock computers. Of all cars in our series there are only Two versions of the computers. So we require stock computers and if need be do random swaps from your car to a competitior car 30 min before the race.

    With stock computer sending stock fuel in to the motor it is hard gain anything.

    That is just one thing.. The there are stock headers we can go to even require stock mufflers. That will limit the exhaust. Hell we can even do AFM swaps from car to car. Don't forget we are limied to stock Fuel Pressure regulators.
    All of which can be easily enforce by swapping from car to car to "sealed" factory unit at any time.

    Really it sure helps to have limit cars types.

    BTW...
    the 8valve non turbo 2.5L 944 had 3 piston types.
    9.5:1 US spec
    10.2:1 US & Euro spec Model year 1988 only
    10.6:1 Euro only pistons.
    To my knowledge 10.6:1 piston are not legal in IT since they are not a US part.
    So you have 10.2:1 and 9.5:1. In our series these pistons don't seem to make and performance differences.

    Now a 10.9:1 piston was made, but this was for the 944S the 16valve car. Visuall it has 4 cut outs on top for the valves rather than just 2.
    Also I am not sure the 2.7L piston's compression ratio, but it has bigger bore so clearly it wont fit in the 2.5L motor.
    Joe P.
    Porsche 944 Racer

  12. #32
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    Originally posted by latebrake@Nov 15 2005, 08:26 AM
    I had an 88 with 10.2 pistons. The 10.9 are euro pistons. I am sure there was a ton of them imported into the US but dont know what the bench mark for ITS is on this sort of thing. The rest of the engine is stock except for balancing the rods and perp drilling the crank. The 944 runs as a limited prep car in E/P so they dont allow killer mods to the engine. The current engine in my car may make 215hp at the flywheel but that is with a stand alone computer and other tricks. Thanks for the help.

    Lawrence.
    [snapback]65426[/snapback]
    As Joe said, only pistons supplied in US market cars from the factory can be used, thus you are limited to 10.2:1 pistons and an overall CR of 10.7:1 by shaving the head. The crank drilling is illegal. However, I'll bet almost every 944 in IT has it done. So, just an FYI.

    I'm not familiar enough with Production to know exactly the differences in the rules, although I started studying it for a little while.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  13. #33
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    Originally posted by Geo@Nov 10 2005, 03:39 PM
    The 2.7 does not make a good ITS engine.
    Are you speaking of the 89 4V2.7 or the "S" DOHC2.7 or both?

  14. #34
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    Originally posted by JimLill@Nov 25 2005, 01:08 PM
    Are you speaking of the 89 4V2.7 or the "S" DOHC2.7 or both?
    [snapback]66653[/snapback]
    The 8v. According to Milledge they don't make much more hp than the 2.5 and certainly not enough to make up for the weight penalty.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  15. #35
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    Originally posted by JimLill@Nov 25 2005, 01:08 PM
    Are you speaking of the 89 4V2.7 or the "S" DOHC2.7 or both?
    [snapback]66653[/snapback]
    In 89 the only 944 engine was the 2.7L 8valve unit (SOHC)
    From 83 to 88 the 944 engine was the 2.5L 8valve unit (SOHC)

    The 944S only came in 87 and 88 in 2.5L 16valve (DOHC) versions.



    Joe P.
    Porsche 944 Racer

  16. #36
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    In '89 thru '91(?) the 16v was dubbed the S2, and it was 3.0 liters. It also received the turbo styled front end.
    Of course you could probably buy and build a nice IT racer out of a 'regular' 944 for the cost of just buying an S2.

    By the way, we built an '84 944 that will race in 2006.
    I built the motor for my '87 944S daily driver/track car.
    We'd be glad to help out if we can. We'll be running SEDiv races.

    One tip: Don't run a plastic fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump. We shattered one on Saturday. Makes a mess.
    1984 Porsche 944 ITS #54

  17. #37
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    a 1987 944 S is legal for ITS for 2006, correct? A good or bad choice?

  18. #38
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    Originally posted by JimLill@Dec 5 2005, 07:05 PM
    a 1987 944 S is legal for ITS for 2006, correct? A good or bad choice?
    [snapback]67393[/snapback]
    A 944S is an excellent choice. (Could be an even better choice in the future, if all goes well)
    Jake Gulick


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  19. #39
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    Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 5 2005, 11:43 PM
    A 944S is an excellent choice. (Could be an even better choice in the future, if all goes well)
    [snapback]67430[/snapback]
    What kind of HP is practical form a stock 944S/87 with only exhaust and intake upgrades (legal)?

    Why does the 944S run at a lower weigh than the 2.7L car?

    Lawrence


  20. #40
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    Originally posted by latebrake@Dec 6 2005, 07:31 AM
    What kind of HP is practical form a stock 944S/87 with only exhaust and intake upgrades (legal)?
    [snapback]67452[/snapback]
    Jon Milledge is getting 209 bhp from IT legal 944S engines.
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

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