Porsche 944S

[RussJones]

I've just started racing a 944S, Im having my share of problems and frustrations. Would like to discuss the car with other people who have built them. I spoke to a guy named Mark N, from the south, dont have his number or email. If either him or Kip Vanstenberg reads this (or anyone else) would be kind enough to call me or email me it would be helpful and appreciated.

Russ Jones
978 741-3344
[email protected]

[wpspeedracer]

Hey Russ
I'll give you a call today
mark n

[latebrake]

Originally posted by RussJones@Sep 12 2005, 10:05 AM
I've just started racing a 944S, Im having my share of problems and frustrations. Would like to discuss the car with other people who have built them. I spoke to a guy named Mark N, from the south, dont have his number or email. If either him or Kip Vanstenberg reads this (or anyone else) would be kind enough to call me or email me it would be helpful and appreciated.

Russ Jones
978 741-3344
[email protected]

[snapback]60006[/snapback]

I race a 944 E/P car with SCCA and 944 cup with NASA. Dont know if I can be of any help but if I can I will. There are a lot of common parts on all the 44 cars and they all suffer the same woes too or so I am told. Mine is a 2.5 car with one cam and only 8 valves makes about 200hp and spins to 7200. I havent raced in 05 because of work (no time) but plan to play again in 06.

Lawrence

[Geo]

Russ, I'm building an 8v 944, but I know a couple of people who have a 944S for ITS.

What are your frustrations?

Other than the engine the two cars are the same.

You can contact me at: geo31 (at) earthlink (dot) net

[JeffYoung]

By the way, there was a "new" -- meaning I haven't seen it before -- red 944s at VIR last weekend. Nice car, ran decent times especially if first time out. Is it anyone's here?

[latebrake]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Nov 3 2005, 01:17 AM
By the way, there was a "new" -- meaning I haven't seen it before -- red 944s at VIR last weekend. Nice car, ran decent times especially if first time out. Is it anyone's here?

[snapback]64441[/snapback]

We paddocked next to him at VIR. Nice guy but dont remember his name. He was asking about a short 5 gear. I think Jesse got his name but not sure. He said that this was only his 2nd 3rd time racing the car. Jesse rented his car to Rick Starkweather for the production race. WE both run E/P Prosche cars. If I find out I will post it here.

Lawrence

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Nov 3 2005, 01:17 AM
By the way, there was a "new" -- meaning I haven't seen it before -- red 944s at VIR last weekend. Nice car, ran decent times especially if first time out. Is it anyone's here?

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Can you pull his name off of MYLAPS? Was it Russ?

[JeffYoung]

No, John Linkengauer I believe. I'll pull the correct name off of mylaps once it comes back up, appears down for maintenance.

[JeffYoung]

JAMES LINKENAUGER

[Wreckerboy]

This 944 based series ran with EMRA at Watkins Glen a few weeks ago. The rules are not IT compliant, but could be a source of information for you - http://www.44cup.com/

[robroberts]

Hey guys , anyone got any good tips for getting a new 924 ready for the track?
any info would be appreciated.

[924Guy]

First off - what kind of 924, 2.0L or 2.5L (ITB or ITS)?

Not that it really changes the basics, just the details on the list. Of course, the basic list could probably apply to any IT car build. I should probably also ask, are you building it to run (now or later) in IT, or purely as a DE car? It's not a bad idea to build a DE car to class prep, to improve your ability to resale it later as needed, even if you'll never race (never say never!).

#1: Reliability. You've gotta have a car that'll stay running if you want to learn how to drive and race.

#2: Suspension. Gotta have a car that'll handle predictably if you want to learn to get the most out of it. Big question here is what is your budget; not much better than full spherical bearing setup and fully-adjustable shocks, but is that $3k+ in your budget?

#3: Speed. Diff, engine, the like. Again, direction depends on what you're building, and what's your budget. Might also matter how close you are to winning; if you've got a 2.5L, do you want to throw the big bucks at a Millege engine, or do you have too much still to learn about driving before you get to the podium? For a 2.0L, can you capably build your own? Do you have the budget to have someone like Istook or Shine build you a motor just so you don't have to worry about it?

Might want to start another thread... and, of course, check out www.924.org and www.924board.org!

[Geo]

Originally posted by Wreckerboy@Nov 4 2005, 08:07 AM
This 944 based series ran with EMRA at Watkins Glen a few weeks ago. The rules are not IT compliant, but could be a source of information for you - http://www.44cup.com/

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Actually, 944Cup has many former ITS cars running in ITS trim. The class was specifically set up to have a competitive place for ITS 944 owners who felt they could not be competitive in ITS.

[Geo]

Originally posted by robroberts@Nov 6 2005, 09:40 PM
Hey guys , anyone got any good tips for getting a new 924 ready for the track?
any info would be appreciated.

[snapback]64749[/snapback]

Yeah, buy one that is already built. There is one for sale in Ft. Worth right now. It was previously owned by Don Istook. If you don't know who he is, he's been racing Porsches a long long time. He was racing 944s when only a handful of people in this country even owned them. The car is currently in Don's shop.

[924Guy]

And I posted the listing in the Classifieds section here on behalf of the owner.

[JeffYoung]

George, hope this isn't a thread hijack but I wanted to comment on 944 Cup. I ran a NASA race a few weeks back and I was shocked by the number (20+ maybe) of 944 race cars that were there. Not all were potential ITS cars, but a good chunk were.

How do we get those guys back to ITS? It seems to me that the 944 and 944s should in many ways be the quintessential ITS car, and here we are with most people taking their toys elsewhere.

What do these cars need to run up front in S? Is it just too much of a dollar investment getting power out of the motor (I've heard the quotes for Milledge motors and that scares me)? Or is it the weight?

I would hope that as part of the re-ordering of IT that is coming up, that the ITAC gives serious consideration to the 944 and to helping it out (and this is from a non-044 driver). Having all of those potential ITS cars over in NASA 944 Cup is a bad thing.

[latebrake]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Nov 10 2005, 05:35 AM
George, hope this isn't a thread hijack but I wanted to comment on 944 Cup. I ran a NASA race a few weeks back and I was shocked by the number (20+ maybe) of 944 race cars that were there. Not all were potential ITS cars, but a good chunk were.

How do we get those guys back to ITS? It seems to me that the 944 and 944s should in many ways be the quintessential ITS car, and here we are with most people taking their toys elsewhere.

What do these cars need to run up front in S? Is it just too much of a dollar investment getting power out of the motor (I've heard the quotes for Milledge motors and that scares me)? Or is it the weight?

I would hope that as part of the re-ordering of IT that is coming up, that the ITAC gives serious consideration to the 944 and to helping it out (and this is from a non-044 driver). Having all of those potential ITS cars over in NASA 944 Cup is a bad thing.

[snapback]65075[/snapback]

George,

Porsche has taken a beating from SCCA for some time now. NASA allows the front engine cars to race with each other. The 2.5 car in ITS skin wont run up front even with a good engine. They handle good but wont make the power. About 120 to 125 at the wheels ITS legal. I run a 944 E/P car and have two Milledge engines. Not cheap but needed to run up front. So I run my car with NASA when they run at VIR or CMP. Production is not cheap racing and if I had it to do all over again I would run the 944S or the 2.7 engine in ITS.

I have a friend who has not run his 1976 924 for several years and wants to sell it for 4k. I think it can run ITA with carbs (on the car now) It was a J-PCA car and held a couple track records somewhere. I dont like the 2L Audi engine much,just me.
Dont build a car!!!!! Buy one. Its 50 cent on the dollar cheaper. Buy Mine for 15k and run it in the NASA cup, it won the SE division in 04. I had a friend killed at at BMWCCA event the other week and the wife is hasing hell with me.

Lawrence

[924Guy]

Sorry, those carbs won't work in IT - must run the stock CIS. I'd imagine a '76 would need a helluva lot of ballast (or driver... same thing? ) to meet weight in ITA at 2600#; even the late cars (like my '79) need some ballast, and the early cars weighed 200-300lbs less... I agree, the 2.0L engine isn't the car's strongest point, but it may be sufficient in ITB...

I agree, I don't see the 2.5L 944 ever able to meet the bar in ITS... needs to drop back to ITA where it can compete with cars its own size, like the Nissan 240...

[Geo]

Originally posted by JeffYoung@Nov 10 2005, 04:35 AM
George, hope this isn't a thread hijack but I wanted to comment on 944 Cup. I ran a NASA race a few weeks back and I was shocked by the number (20+ maybe) of 944 race cars that were there. Not all were potential ITS cars, but a good chunk were.

How do we get those guys back to ITS? It seems to me that the 944 and 944s should in many ways be the quintessential ITS car, and here we are with most people taking their toys elsewhere.

What do these cars need to run up front in S? Is it just too much of a dollar investment getting power out of the motor (I've heard the quotes for Milledge motors and that scares me)? Or is it the weight?

I would hope that as part of the re-ordering of IT that is coming up, that the ITAC gives serious consideration to the 944 and to helping it out (and this is from a non-044 driver). Having all of those potential ITS cars over in NASA 944 Cup is a bad thing.

[snapback]65075[/snapback]

Jeff, I truly appreciate the observation. I've had a number of discussions about the 944 with the ITAC and most of them have been rather, ah, spirited. Basically I have felt the car was clearly an ITA car. Now I think it may be able to go either way if dealt with correctly (not talking dual classification, although that might work).

I've pointed out exactly the point you're making about the popularity of 944 Cup and also Spec 944. I've pointed out that both series point to a failure for IT (I believe most spec series point to a failure for IT). As you noted with 944 Cup, there is a ready group of cars that could and quite likely would race in IT if the current classification didn't make it like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I had a long conversation with Jon Milledge so I could supply the straight scoop on both the 944 and 944S and this has lead me to believe the 944 can be made to fit ITS reasonable well or at least well enough to give it a good try.

So, we (the ITAC) have made a recomendation to the CRB to change the weight of the car to make it more in line with the class (using the process we use for all other cars). I won't of course say what that is. I will say that I think it's a tad higher than it should be, but I'm more than happy to try it at that weight. Some folks on the ITAC feel it's going to be light and some are neutral. It will certainly be interesting to see, assuming the CRB accepts our re-ordering proposal. For sure it should get more 944s out on the track in ITS. There are certainly plenty of them around either built for ITS or easily adapted to ITS.

As for what is needed, a well built engine will certainly be a requirement to run up front, but that is as it should be. What I think will happen is some of the good cars without Milledge engines will be able to be very competitive in some places while in others people will struggle even with Milledge engines, such is regional competition. I think in general a more moderately built car will fare better than other moderately built cars simply because an all-out Milledge engine doesn't make the increases that other all-out engines make, so there would be less of a spread between the great and the good. In the end, I think the car will be a good, fun car and there are still a buttload of them out there either built or ready to be built.

To sum it up in a single sentance, I think if the CRB accepts our proposal, it should fare OK in the grand scheme of things.

I know I'm looking forward to it.

[Geo]

Originally posted by latebrake@Nov 10 2005, 11:16 AM
George,

Porsche has taken a beating from SCCA for some time now. NASA allows the front engine cars to race with each other. The 2.5 car in ITS skin wont run up front even with a good engine. They handle good but wont make the power. About 120 to 125 at the wheels ITS legal. I run a 944 E/P car and have two Milledge engines. Not cheap but needed to run up front. So I run my car with NASA when they run at VIR or CMP. Production is not cheap racing and if I had it to do all over again I would run the 944S or the 2.7 engine in ITS.

I have a friend who has not run his 1976 924 for several years and wants to sell it for 4k. I think it can run ITA with carbs (on the car now) It was a J-PCA car and held a couple track records somewhere. I dont like the 2L Audi engine much,just me.
Dont build a car!!!!! Buy one. Its 50 cent on the dollar cheaper. Buy Mine for 15k and run it in the NASA cup, it won the SE division in 04. I had a friend killed at at BMWCCA event the other week and the wife is hasing hell with me.

Lawrence

[snapback]65090[/snapback]

A truly all-out engine should put down well over 125 to the wheels. Milledge engines put out 185 at the crank. I cannot believe there are 30% driveline losses. I think the problem is a) nobody but Jon is doing serious development of these engines, and most people are not willing to go the distance to really get that level of development. I know in the 944 community there is a belief that there is little to nothing that can be done for these engines, but when Jon can get 185 for an IT legal engine I know most people just aren't putting in the effort. That said, I won't have a Milledge engine. I don't know everything that Jon does, but I do know the key ingredient that makes the difference between a good and a great engine. I won't tell because I bought Jon's $100 ITS primer and I believe that information is proprietary (it's not mine to give). Since you have Milledge engines, it might be worty a conversation with Jon about this.

The 2.7 does not make a good ITS engine. The weight premium that is paid for the displacement is way too much. A fully built 2.7 ITS engine only makes a few more hp than the 2.5. I also know what causes that difference, but again, I consider that info proprietary.

I'm sorry about Dave. Everything I've read about him as a person has been pretty stellar. I also heard he set a class lap record on his last race lap.