IS300 in ITS?

[SPiFF]

For thos on the ITAC or in the know, what do you think the chance of the IS300* getting put into ITS? 2007 would be the 1st year. Sounds like good competition to the BMW. I6 rated at 215hp, FR, 3250 curb weight.

(* actually all the 2JZ-GE powered cars should be a good fit. IS300, GS300, SC300, SupraNA)

[Andy Bettencourt]

I would say no. It's way too much stock HP to be classified in ITS. Remember, the BMW makes 189 and is a 2.5 - the Lexus is a 3.0l...and it's an I-6 to boot so it can really has potential.

It's another car that could fit into a class above ITS - "ITR" I call it when we refer to the concept. Pretty expensive donor too...

I am assuming you are saying 2007 because the 2001 only came in an automatic...

AB

BTW: It would weigh ABOUT 3600 in ITS given it's specs...

[charrbq]

Might be kinda cool to watch, though! :P

[jlucas]

I think the IS300 would get have a tough time running with the 3 series (just like it does in stock form).

[JeffYoung]

An 02 or whenver they got the 5 speed IS against an 02 3, I agree, but against an E36 -- pretty good match up I think. 215 hp. stock....3600 lbs?? 190 hp stock, 250 at the crank in IT trim....2900 lbs?

Whoa...I'll stop.

[SPiFF]

Google.

Don't the stock 325s make close to that?

Max (RW/FW)HP: 159.2 @ 5680 rpms
Max (RW/FW)TQ: 164.7 @ 4630 rpms
http://www.dynoperformance.com/search_deta...=504&safeid=504

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Sep 7 2005, 12:04 AM
BTW: It would weigh ABOUT 3600 in ITS given it's specs...

[snapback]59753[/snapback]

Andy,

I respectfully disagree with the weight. Look at the numbers:

You've got a BMW 325 with a 2.5L inline 6 that makes, stock, 189 hp. That is 75.6 hp/L. And, this car is classed at 2800lbs (which IMHO is too light, but a different story). *SORRY - I MISSED WEIGHT FROM MEMORY BY 50LBS, MY BAD*

Now, the Lexus is a 3L motor with 215hp stock, which works out to 71.1 hp/L, slightly less efficient as one might expect.

Both motors have four valve heads and both motors have variable valve timing stock, they are very comparable.

If one was to use the ratio of weight to hp, that is classed weight, then for the BMW one would get:

2800 lbs /189 hp = 14.8 lbs/hp.

So, we want class parity therefore we'll use 14.8 lbs/hp as the benchmark and solve the Lexus for weight:

X / 215 hp = 14.8 lbs/hp, and we get X = 3185 lbs. So, class the car at 3185lbs to start with. Or a little higher if one wants to make sure it doesn't become a front runner straightaway.

You can do it with torque to and get a slightly different number if you wish, but there is no way you're going to get 3600lbs. Unless, of course, you just want the car to be non-competitive so that nobody will build one.

It will not be easy to make power with the Lexus inline 6, it'll take a lot of time and development before one of these at 3185 lbs is near a BMW. You just can't use your credit card and order good parts for one, like you can with a BMW. And, when a Lexus gets near a BMW then the adjustment board can simply put a restrictor on it and slap it back down.

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

The whole flaw in the arguement is that you are using one of the most misclassed cars as your 'control'.

If classed today, the 325 SHOULD be in excess of 3300 based on it's numbers. Instead of that kind of weight, a Restrictor Plate has been put in place as a FIRST STEP to controlling the performance potential of the car as we currently know it.

The car that is often compared to the IS300 if the E46 330, not the E36 325 at 189hp.

Ron, if you use your example to class the IS300, you have TWO overdogs in ITS instead of one. Anything over 200 stock HP HAS TO go to another class or else we start using Single Inlet Restrictors (SIR's) to control everything...

(Also remember that the SAME 3.0L motor was in the NA Supra's with a slight exhaust difference - and was rated at 222hp. Never underestimate the reach of the Import Tuner market... http://www.nexusindustry.com/alpha_interfa...&OVMTC=standard )

Why add another problem child? Is there a pocket of IS owners banging down the door of another sanctioning body trying to find a place to race door to door?

AB

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Sep 12 2005, 04:21 PM
Instead of that kind of weight, a Restrictor Plate has been put in place as a FIRST STEP to controlling the performance potential of the car as we currently know it.

OK, I give up. What is the second step? And when should we be expecting it?

BTW, the E36 weighs 2850 in ITS.

[lateapex911]

Also, look at the "meat" of ITS, the Z car and the RX-7.

In terms of real actual wheel HP, the 7 puts down, what 180? And the E36 is in the 217 plus range. Torque-wise of course, they are worlds apart.

So, you have to assume the Lexus motor will gain some hp in an IT build, ease of build notwithstanding. Just the standard stuff will have it putting more power down than ITS has ever seen. Theoretically, if we take the known BMW gains, this motor will put down in the strong 250 range. Solving that number to the Z car/RX-7 level yields a weight in the mid 3000 lbs.

As it stands, the current weight of the E36 is obviously not on par with the rest of the class, so it follows that, to class a Lexus correctly, not only would it be heavier than the E36, but that the E36 can't be used as a benchmark, or a desired "bogey" so to speak.

I would love to see it added, but it has to be done properly.

Personally speaking, I think classing anything in teh 3500 pound range is getting too far from the linear tire response curve, and I hate to see that. I DO want cars like this classed and running, but I DO NOT like the idea of classing them at 3500 pounds on 7" wide wheels.

Are there a lot of cars that would actually show up and run if they were classed fairly? What if they were classed at say 3000, and ran 8" rims, in a class above ITS, call it "ITR"? Would more show up?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer@Sep 12 2005, 03:47 PM
OK, I give up. What is the second step? And when should we be expecting it?

BTW, the E36 weighs 2850 in ITS.

[snapback]60030[/snapback]

I don't think anyone misquoted the weight of the E36 in ITS, did they?

Nothing to be done to ANY car in terms of a PCA until all the data is in. The RP on the E36 has yet to be fully analyzed. Nothing is on the horizon but SIR's HAVE been talked about in the context of higher HP cars LIKE the E36, E46, and others over 200hp stock - as has a class above ITS.

AB

[mlytle]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Sep 12 2005, 10:33 PM
I don't think anyone misquoted the weight of the E36 in ITS, did they?

AB

[snapback]60035[/snapback]

go back and read post #7..... 2800lbs.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by mlytle@Sep 12 2005, 07:07 PM
go back and read post #7..... 2800lbs.

[snapback]60038[/snapback]

Thanks!

AB

[robits325is]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Sep 12 2005, 06:33 PM
Nothing is on the horizon but SIR's HAVE been talked about in the context of higher HP cars LIKE the E36, E46, and others over 200hp stock - as has a class above ITS.

AB

[snapback]60035[/snapback]

Reading that, it sounds like you are trying to group the current ITS BMWs with other cars that are over 200hp.

E-36 325i/is has 189hp per the manufacturer
E-46 323i has 170hp per the manufacturer

Rob Driscoll

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Sep 12 2005, 08:21 PM
The whole flaw in the arguement is that you are using one of the most misclassed cars as your 'control'.

[snapback]60027[/snapback]

Was that a flaw, or a cleverly constructed plan?

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rlearp@Sep 12 2005, 10:39 PM
Was that a flaw, or a cleverly constructed plan?

[snapback]60045[/snapback]

Laughing, well, trust me, the E36 has NOT fallen off the radar....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by robits325is@Sep 12 2005, 09:19 PM
Reading that, it sounds like you are trying to group the current ITS BMWs with other cars that are over 200hp.

E-36 325i/is has 189hp per the manufacturer
E-46 323i has 170hp per the manufacturer

Rob Driscoll

[snapback]60044[/snapback]

Nope, just listing some cars that would fit if SIR's were the wave of the future....heck, the E36 325, 328, M3, E46 330...and beyond.

I-6's aside, anything over 200 is pretty high for ITS.

AB

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Sep 12 2005, 05:51 PM
And the E36 is in the 217 plus range. Torque-wise of course, they are worlds apart.

And once again we are hearing about the mythical 217 hp at the rear wheels M50 motor. The motor that for some reason is only made available to drivers that race in competing makes, i.e. Mazda, Nissan, Honda, etc. or members of the ITAC. Too bad us BMW drivers can't get hold of this motor.

Try 195 HP @ rear wheels prior to the restrictor plate. SCCA has the dyno sheets. :P

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer@Sep 13 2005, 10:19 AM


Try 195 HP @ rear wheels prior to the restrictor plate. SCCA has the dyno sheets. :P

[snapback]60072[/snapback]

Bruce, are you claiming that your motor is a 100% effort?

AB

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Sep 13 2005, 11:58 AM
Bruce, are you claiming that your motor is a 100% effort?

AB

Yes as far as I am concerned, built to the max for IT. As I have stated before I do not have MOTEC, the minute I buy that it’ll be outlawed.

Now I’m going to sit back and wait for somebody to get on here and say that MOTEC is good for 22 hp at the rear wheels. I need a real good laugh!

I’ve provided my proof. Now it’s your turn to provide something more than innuendo and BS.