Rain Tires

[Doc Bro]

Sooo....After this weekend at NHIS I've been thinking more about rain tires. I'm aware that the dirt stockers are THE tire in the all out wet, I also know that they don't take kindly to a drying track enviornment. I was wondering what the consensus was in regards to intermediate tires. I was also wondering what people used. Has anyone ever tried something like a Goodyear Aquatread? Is that dumb? I also thought the Toyo Proxes that the Miatas use might be viable in the wet as they seemed to do real well on them if it starts to dry you still have a good dry tire. I guess my point is that the track was changing so quickly that it was very difficult to feel confident in tire choice. ps I made the wrong choice!
Thanks- Rob

[JLawton]

For intermediates, unshaved Kumho's have worked well for me in the past.

Don't worry about making the wrong choice. In the ITS/ITB race, 90% of the field made the wrong choice and went with drys. With 5 minutes to go on the grid, it started to rain again..............Nothing more exciting than hydroplaning in through NASCAR 1 & 2!!

[gran racing]

I use Toyo RA-1s for my rain tires. So far, I've used them twice. Once in a HPDE when it was absolutely pouring at LRP, to the point where a large stream formed below the down hill and no matter what you did the car would hydro plane towards the wall. I was really surprised at how well the tires did and got a bit over confident. The other time was at NHIS when I should have used dry tires. It was a nice feeling to know that the tires wouldn't be trashed at the end of the session.

[joeg]

Go Kumho--Victoracers--because they are cheaper than the Toyos

[Greg Amy]

Rob, the absolute biggest problems with rain tires comes from actually HAVING them. That may sound silly, but when you think about it, it's rare that people make the correct choice unless the environment is very obvious.

Last weekend was a good example. I watched the weather all day; with the low clouds and lack of organized patterns rain could have happened any time (as it did during lunch). However, immediately prior to your race there was no pending implications of rain. Further, while the track was wet from the earlier rain there was no precipitation and a light wind, indicating drying conditions; I would have gone out on dry tires, and that was the right choice.

Compare that to JeffL's ITS/ITB race. Not only was the track dry, but the weather conditions had not changed one iota. The light wind was continuing and the prior group dried the line out pretty well. Again, I would have gone out on rains. However, hindsight showed me to be incorrect: just as they were gridding a light rain started, but it wan't enough to cause standing water. Unfortunately, as they began to pull out it rained hard enough to being puddling, and at that point rain tires were the proper choice. There were a few guys that took a shot with rain tires, but unless they had RADAR or divine insight it was nothing more than a lucky shot.

As a general rule, I do not install rain tires unless there's visible precipitation, standing water, and/or indications of "rooster tails" and mist from cars. Recall that the purpose of tread is to disperse standing water, and if there ain't none then you don't need tread. Additionally, the cooler the track, the more rubber stick you need; the ultimate tire for Sunday's ITA race would have been Hoosier autocross compund tires (the Dirt Stocker has a very gummy rubber, which is why it gets torn up in the dry).

If life were perfect and I had a lot of money, I'd have a set of Hoosier Rs for regular driving, a set of Hoosier As for cold and damp tracks, and a set of Hoosier Dirt Stockers for standing water. In reality I have Hoosier Rs and I'm getting a set Toyo RA-1 treadeds so they can take up space in my garage.

So, if you don't have rain tires, the decision become real easy...

[Doc Bro]

Greg what you say makes a lot of sense. I think i'll get my Victoracers mounted on the old stock rims as a just in case. Thankfully the 2 spins flat spotted those old yoko's pretty good. I'll be more than happy seeing those things go!
Thanks-Rob

[spnkzss]

I had the pleasure of running a second qualifing session in the rain with a borrowed set of full tread toyos. The first qualifying session was dry so noone went out fo rhte second session. There must have been 12 of 45 cars on the track. The rain was actually coming down relitively heavy so it was definitly dirt stoker weather. My 3 year old run once Dirt Stockers were fairly well dry rotted. I was impressed with the Toyos. They handled better than my old dirt stockers. That and the Toyo's are not that bad in the dry. With very little all out rain events and the number of "will it really rain" events, I am going to buy a set of Toyos next year. At Summit you get a few races that at turn 5-8 it's raining and the rest of the track is dry. The Toyos just make more sense.

[Steve35]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Aug 31 2005, 05:43 PM
Rob, the absolute biggest problems with rain tires comes from actually HAVING them. That may sound silly, but when you think about it, it's rare that people make the correct choice unless the environment is very obvious.

[snapback]59418[/snapback]

Oh so true! I think the best advice I’ve heard is if you’re not sure when to use rains is to mount two drys on one side and 2 rains on the other then make your best decision at the last minute. Then all you have to do is change two tires not all four!
I’m in So. Cal. so we don’t have rains tires, Earthquake and Brush Fire tires, but not rain tires. LOL

Good luck
Steve Coe

[zracre]

I think full tread toyos are my best choice...they work a good compromise in a deluge and if it dries up they work pretty good without killing them. I have found them sensitive to proper heat cycling...If not done slowly they wil get chewed up pretty quick. One wet race seems to do the trick...

[bldn10]

But, for the sake of conversation, back to Rob's fundamental question:
Are race-compound tires better in the rain that street tires made specifically to run in rain? I have wondered too whether some speed rated rain & snow-type street tires would not be better than even full-tread race tires in a deluge.

FWIW 2 of the most fun races I have ever had were when I had no rain tires, everyone else did, and a dry line appeared after a few laps. Ye-ha!

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by bldn10@Sep 1 2005, 10:22 AM
..... I have wondered too whether some speed rated rain & snow-type street tires would not be better than even full-tread race tires in a deluge.......

[snapback]59502[/snapback]

I *think* the same size Dirt Stocker (or equivilent) would be superior than a street based rain type tire.

I *think* a narrower Dirt Stocker would be even better.......in a deluge.

[DavidM]

Originally posted by lateapex911@Sep 1 2005, 01:36 PM
I *think* the same size Dirt Stocker (or equivilent) would be superior than a street based rain type tire.

I *think* a narrower Dirt Stocker would be even better.......in a deluge.

[snapback]59516[/snapback]

Hoosier now makes a rain tire. It appears to have the same V pattern that's on street tires and is good for dispersing water. I would assume it's stickier than a street tire. How it lasts if the track dries up who knows. Seems like this would be the best rain tire you could get - on paper anyways. Of course they probably cost a bundle.

David

[charrbq]

I can only tell you what I use. Hoosier doesn't make the new rain tire in 13", so I have to use Dirt Stockers for rain tires. If there is standing water, they are fantastic! If there are dry straights...hold on! I understand the new rain tires are better lasting in situations such as those. For damp or misting weather, I use the same shaved Kumhos that I run long enduros on. Dry, of course, Hoosier's. The problem is as stated, having the right tire on the car for the duration of the race is key. I've made the right choice and the wrong choice. I can tell you that the front straight of Sebring on a set of Hoosiers during a torrential down pour is no picnic!

[jcmotorsports]

Intermediate: Hankook z211 ( full tread depth).... I have used them in intermediate situations where the track has dried - they DO NOT slow you down!!!!!!!! In the wet they are also FAST!!!
Full Rains: Hankook does not make one, but i have faired well on the K104 street tire, but there may be something else coming. I have used the goodyear rains. they are great, but they are also very expensive.
I have used the hankooks on both my SSC civic and ITS rx7, i have used the goodyears on my ITS rx7 only.
john costello

[Andy Bettencourt]

What makes a car stick to the track is tire COMPOUND. A street tire will not perform well. The reason Dirt Stockers rock in the wet is that they are rediculously soft AND have the ability to get to the pavement (get the water away).

I have seen the new Hoosier kick some butt - and you are supposed to be able to shave them into intermediates.

AB

[pgipson]

Rain tires???

[Greg Amy]

Rain tires???...Spec RX7 #11...Scottsdale AZ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain

[handfulz28]

Like Andy says, definitely DO NOT use street compound tires. As long as it's not a really wet track, the race compound, even if it's a "slick" DOT, will have more grip in all attitudes (braking, cornering, accelerating) at speed.

I did the street tire in the rain thing in my T2 Camaro once. Downpour, rained all day, I had qualified on pole overall the day before. I was lapped by SSB Neons with 10 laps.
Later that year I was at Daytona, and it started to rain right as we got the 5 minute. All I had was one set of well-worn BFG R1s anyways. Started 6th overall, ended up 2nd to a guy who put on brand new GS-CS' for the race. After the race, my right front was showing cord in 3 different places.

It's amazing what rubber compound can do.

Michael

[Rob May]

No doubt that the Hoosier DOT radial wet is THE tire to have in the rain. Run them once in the rain, and you'll know. I have run on Toyo full rains. Hoosiers are much, much better.

[GKR_17]

You don't need rains Rob (May)... You're way too fast in the wet with slicks!

Grafton