Restricted Regional Discussion

[Andy Bettencourt]

Up here in NER, we have a lot of cars for very little track space. LRP and NHIS are only a sliver over 1.5 miles so we are talking 38 cars on track without a waiver, 44 cars at best. We also do not run on the same weekends as Nationals. We have Regional only weekends and National only weekends...

With Regional only classes there are over 40 classes in most areas. Here - ITS, ITA, ITB, and our two versions of Spec Miata (SM and SSM) make up over 50% of the entries. Yup, about 12% of the classes make up 50% of the cars.

With 2 run groups of open wheelers, that leaves 5 run groups with classes than could (and often do) have enough entries to fill up more than half a run group. So you than have to fit around 25 classes into those 5 groups - and there are many issues to take into account - like speed differential, weights, etc. Some groups just shouldn't be put together for a variety of reasons.

Yesterday at a Regional, there were 6 cars in the 'big bore' open wheel run group. Granted, this was on an enduro weekend where they were not eligible to run and bad weather was predicted, but this run group is never even half filled, with 9 classes!!!!

Finally to my question:

What Regions, if any, do restricted regionals? How do they work? What sort of political climate is involved? Do you like it or hate it? Do you have any friends that run in the restricted classes that are sour? Do they understand the issues and the reasoning?

I hate to even suggest that we exclude drivers. It makes me ill. However, when some of the IT and SM run groups have to consider registration cut-offs or consolation races while 2 run-groups remain so under-utilized, I wonder what is best for the region as a whole. Keep in mind that these guys COULD go run Nationals if they so chose. (SM will be the same next year, but it is often the largest class in most areas so it is a sort of moot point).

I am trying to be more active with my local Comp Board and I want to make an INFORMED proposal this winter on a variety of ideas I have and have bounced off freinds and teammates. Can this work?

NER will be initially opposed to it - and rightfully so I think. We want to accomodate all drivers in all classes...but where do we draw the line and who has to suffer when problems occur? I am willing to bet that if you could provide more value to the racers in terms of track time/dollar, you would make up easily in additional entries what you lost by eliminating the 2 open wheel groups.

I would also think this idea would only be reasonable for 1-2 events per year, maybe on the first day of a double or something like that. I haven't thought it all through but would like some input - FOR AND AGAINST so I can decide to even go forward with the idea. We all know everyone can never be made happy, but what make the MOST happy while still producing a profitable event/season?

Thanks,

AB

[racer14itc]

The idea of restricted regionals to accomodate popular classes on the surface seems like a good idea...to those who race in those classes. But if you look at it from the region/division persective and a longer term point of view, this could hurt the national racing classes in the regions/division down the road. Where do the future national racers come from? Regionals! And if you exclude these non-IT or SM racers from the regionals, how are you going to generate interest in those classes for the future? Yes, I know SM will become a national class next year so that is a moot point. But what about the other 20 classes?

It's just not reasonable to expect folks to begin racing in IT and then build another (non-IT) car to run nationals later. The advent of limited prep in production has given an avenue for a lot of IT cars to move up to nationals and production so that has been addressed. But if you exclude SRF's, Formula cars, A-sedans, GT, etc., from regionals, how can you expect these classes to attract future competitors so that the class can survive in the long run?

It would seem to me that restricted regionals might be a slight case of "cut off your nose to spite your face".

MC

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dang! I knew I couldn't write it up correctly if I tried!

My idea is not to preclude any class that is not IT or SM. It is essentially to look at the run gorups that are pitifully subscibed and try an event or two without them. Up here, the run groups would be the two open wheel groups, probably different in other areas. Not wanting to talk specific classes but to talk in generalities to see if it even makes sense...

Your point is very valid but I am not suggesting that all National classes never get to run a Regional ever again, just a couple events that can accomodate all the well subsrcibed classes in full at a nice value for the dollar.

I hope this isn't coming off as primarily exclusionary or 'his group is better than hers', it's an idea I need more info on. Thanks Marc, I know you are active on other boards and respect your opinion as a Regional and National racer...

AB

[mgyip]

Andy,

The DC Region started TALKING about this last winter - don't everyone get their panties in a bunch, we're just TALKING and certainly NOT acting upon our discussions. In our discussions, the intent was to combine the open wheelers (Wings and Things to quote the irrepressible Don Barrack). This was met with a resoundingly negative response from the affected classes (no surprise) as well as from the stewards.

The loudest objections (of which there were many) was a speed differential where F500s are simply too slow to play with FAs and FCs. The objection to "But you can run Nationals" was that "We don't want to run Nationals" which was coupled with "we don't want to be forced to travel out of region". Both are valid reasons and since I've never driven an open wheeler (they don't make an "extra-wide body" car for me), I can't comment fully on the speed differential issue. However the DC region struggled thru a speed differential issue when it combined Production cars with Showroom Stock. The nay-sayers forsaw carnage as SS cars turned in on Prod cars that, while slow on the straights, rocketed around the turns due to their slicks. After a few years of this, the relatively small number of SS cars aren't a problem for anyone other than themselves and the same goes for the Production cars.

The overall climate within the DC region is more than a bit tense. With SM/SSM increasing their ranks daily, some of the fear is that their leadership will attempt to take control of SCCA and force everyone to conform to the will of SM/SSM. While I don't believe this is the case, SM/SSM is STILL a 300 lb Gorilla albeit offering a white lily instead of bareing it's teeth.

Is there a good solution? No - not yet although with SM going National in '06, that will change the face of Club racing since a portion of the Club racers will go to Nationals (some will do both, some will go National for a while and return to Club, some will go National ony). As I suggested in early '05, we really need to wait until the middle/end of the '06 season to see how SM/SSM shakes out.

[Z3_GoCar]

Andy Bettencourt Posted Today, 11:06 AM
Up here in NER, we have a lot of cars for very little track space. LRP and NHIS are only a sliver over 1.5 miles so we are talking 38 cars on track without a waiver, 44 cars at best. We also do not run on the same weekends as Nationals. We have Regional only weekends and National only weekends...

Here's another way to take this, it sound like you need more track space. Why then don't you push for a track development committee? Surely more tracks to run at will benefit everyone who's interested in running any class. In the San Francisco/Bay Area SCCA developed Thunder Hill as a place to add track capacity. It also adds to driver development and recruits new drivers thru HPDE's. I've had a couple of rides around Thunder Hill and can say it's a very interesting track. Just thought this would be a less divisive approach after all even Formula V should have a place to run too.

James

[mlytle]

how about f500 movng to wka weekends or lawnmower race weekends?

the run group issue is a major one i wdcr. 9 run groups, three of which (srf, wings 'n things and 500/fv) rarely fill half a grid. the IT, miata and srx7 groups represent 2/3's of the racers, yet are crammed into four run groups. evidence the closed out groups for this weekend. i am all for combining undersubscribed groups or having restricted regionals. if someone wants to race a national class, they can go race the national series. regional classed don't have that option.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Z3_GoCar@Aug 29 2005, 07:19 PM
Here's another way to take this, it sound like you need more track space. Why then don't you push for a track development committee? Surely more tracks to run at will benefit everyone who's interested in running any class. In the San Francisco/Bay Area SCCA developed Thunder Hill as a place to add track capacity. It also adds to driver development and recruits new drivers thru HPDE's. I've had a couple of rides around Thunder Hill and can say it's a very interesting track. Just thought this would be a less divisive approach after all even Formula V should have a place to run too.

James

[snapback]59236[/snapback]

Excellent idea...and one that NER has been persuing for years now...a new track. As far as developing current stuff, we are operating in environments where the locals would love to see the track dissappear (Lime Rock) or at least add on to the already rediculous amount of restrictions. NHIS is a roval and is a patchwork piece at best, I doubt that the current ownership would spend money to add to Club days when they make millions during their 2 NASCAR weekends each year.

I think we need solutions that operate within our current limited infrastructure...I wish it wasn't true.

AB

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by mlytle@Aug 30 2005, 12:49 AM
how about f500 movng to wka weekends or lawnmower race weekends?

the run group issue is a major one i wdcr. 9 run groups, three of which (srf, wings 'n things and 500/fv) rarely fill half a grid. the IT, miata and srx7 groups represent 2/3's of the racers, yet are crammed into four run groups. evidence the closed out groups for this weekend. i am all for combining undersubscribed groups or having restricted regionals. if someone wants to race a national class, they can go race the national series. regional classed don't have that option.

[snapback]59240[/snapback]

So what you're saying is that if someone wants to race a prod car (or other national class) in the MARRS series, they either have to stay home (restricted regional) or race in a potentially unsafe race group? Not everyone wants to travel all over the division to race in nationals. For example there is only one national race at Summit Point during the year; if someone wanted to stay and race locally, you'd be OK with treating them like a second class citizen just because they wanted to race something other than IT or SM? Not a very hospitable attitude... :angry:

I feel for the folks in the oversubscribed classes. I wish there was an easier solution. But also remember not everyone wants to race a Miata or stay in IT forever.

MC

[Bill Miller]

if someone wants to race a national class, they can go race the national series. regional classed don't have that option.

And there folks, is the rub.

When you've got classes that are only allowed to run Regionals, they should absolutely get preferential treatment. If you can only run 8 run groups, and each Regional-only class pulls enough cars to fill its respective group, they get as many groups as they need. If it means combining all the open-wheel cars in one group, you put all the open-wheel cars in one group. Whatever it takes. If people in those classes don't like it, they can run Nationals. Some cars have an option, and some cars don't. To me, it's inconscionable to send racers home, because their group is full, when they can't go run National races. You don't want to run Nationals, or you don't want to have to travel, that's YOUR CHOICE. But don't expect to get the same treatment as someone who does not have that choice.

This is only going to get worse, as long as we maintain this artificial seperation of Nationally-recognized, Regional-only classes. The whole "Hey, you haven't run 6 races, so you're not experienced enough to run w/ us." rhetoric is so much clap-trap. To say that it's ok for someone on a Novice book to run w/ 20+ ITS cars at a Regional, but it's not ok for them to run w/ 2 or 3 GP or HP cars at a National is really a bunch of BS. It's even more so, when those 2 or 3 cars are just parading around to get a finish to qualify for the Runoffs.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Aug 30 2005, 01:48 AM
I feel for the folks in the oversubscribed classes. I wish there was an easier solution. But also remember not everyone wants to race a Miata or stay in IT forever.

MC

[snapback]59246[/snapback]

There is an easier solution Mark. Make all Nationally-recognized classes (those w/ a CS section in the GCR) eligible to run any race. Now, rename the races from Regional and National, to Non-Qualifying and Qualifying (relating to qualifying for the Runoffs). Take the top 20 classes from the prior year, and make them eligible for the Runoffs. Take the top 4 - 6 other classes (best of the rest) for the _current_ year (by some cutoff date, say 9/1), and make them eligible for the Runoffs. If you're trying to go, you run Qualifying races, if you're not, you don't have to. And if you're worried about novice driver experience, you make them run 6 Non-Qualifying races before they're able to run Qualifying races. We live in a free-market economy, let natural selection sort things out. Poorly subscribed classes shouldn't be allowed to go to the big dance.

[Peter Olivola]

You and I (and, hopefully anyone else) don't need to argue this again. I would like to suggest, however, that if the region can muster the will to run Restricted Regionals, that would be one way to go. Another option is the way things were handled when FF and FV were the monster classes. Practice/qualifying was split and half the maximum allowed were taken from each to make up the grid with the fastest on pole and everyone in that group in the same line. Those too slow go home. It hurt, but it was fair.

Combining all formula cars in the same run group would get my attention as a Steward and I would be willing to pursue it via protest and appeal on safety grounds.

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Aug 30 2005, 01:59 AM
This is only going to get worse, as long as we maintain this artificial seperation of Nationally-recognized, Regional-only classes. The whole "Hey, you haven't run 6 races, so you're not experienced enough to run w/ us." rhetoric is so much clap-trap. To say that it's ok for someone on a Novice book to run w/ 20+ ITS cars at a Regional, but it's not ok for them to run w/ 2 or 3 GP or HP cars at a National is really a bunch of BS. It's even more so, when those 2 or 3 cars are just parading around to get a finish to qualify for the Runoffs.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Peter Olivola@Aug 29 2005, 10:27 PM
You and I (and, hopefully anyone else) don't need to argue this again........ Another option is the way things were handled when FF and FV were the monster classes. ....... Those too slow go home. It hurt, but it was fair.

Combining all formula cars in the same run group would get my attention as a Steward and I would be willing to pursue it via protest and appeal on safety grounds.

[snapback]59250[/snapback]

First, "it was fair"?????

So I buy my race car, get my comp lic, show up, but I'm in the slow part of the group...(hey..I'm new!)....and it's "Hey, nice try, but you have to go. But come back with your money again real soon, ya hear!?"

Uh, thats fair???

No, it's not fair. We're not pros! It costs a bundle of money just to get to the race, much less to pay the entry fee. It sounds as though the losers payed the entry (turned a wheel) but didn't get to race. Even if they got a partial refund, it sucks.

I don't think that is a proper solution.

Miller and I may have disagreed (and agreed ) on issues in the past, and while his "non qualify/qualify race" plan has a couple hitches in it, its really a better solution than the one currently in use, and I think he has hit upon some good concepts.

It makes NO sense for the National Championship to have races dedicatated (and get TV time!) to 19 cars with a spread of 14 seconds seperating the fast from the slow! That's embarassing! And it wasn't just one class either.......look at any MARRS or NER ITA race and you'll likely see more cars and closer racing, LOL.

The future of SCCA is not 23 GP cars parading around seperated by 20 seconds.....A LAP!!!! The Runoffs has gotten major TV coverage, but I have wondered how it is viewed by the potential "newbie", and my conclusion is that we are not only wasting a great marketing chance, but actually posioning possible future races.

Nobody can look me in the eye and tell me that the system doesn't need work.

The whole National qualifying thing is a joke in most areas.

Non visionaries will scoff at ideas like Millers, but ideas like that have a lot of merit.

[pgipson]

We ran a "Restricted Regional" for several years in AZ, but we didn't call it that. We started a race called the Spring Invitational as a benefit race for a local organization. In our case it was Phoenix Children's Hospital. We invited select classes to run, typically those that could put a full field on the track (also a short track -- PIR, 38 cars max.)

We did this for several years, often including one or more of the SCCA "pro" series (Pro Spec Miata, Zetec fords, ACRL). It was a lot of fun for the workers and for the drivers that particiapted. But we caught hell from the drivers that got left out, open wheel, CSR&DSR, Vee's, GT, etc.


This past year the race was a standard regional race. But we tried to keep the fun in it by having a MAJOR worker party, and some other good things.

But I for one missed the old format, of course my class was always invited.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Peter Olivola@Aug 30 2005, 02:27 AM
You and I (and, hopefully anyone else) don't need to argue this again. I would like to suggest, however, that if the region can muster the will to run Restricted Regionals, that would be one way to go. Another option is the way things were handled when FF and FV were the monster classes. Practice/qualifying was split and half the maximum allowed were taken from each to make up the grid with the fastest on pole and everyone in that group in the same line. Those too slow go home. It hurt, but it was fair.

Combining all formula cars in the same run group would get my attention as a Steward and I would be willing to pursue it via protest and appeal on safety grounds.

[snapback]59250[/snapback]

Really Peter, it's "fair" [sic] to take someone's money and not let them race? It's "fair" for those that don't get to race to subsidize those thta do? This is Club Racing. We supposedly do this for fun. BTW, that's about as "fair", as telling drivers they can't race, because you've got a run group of 10 cars. You want fair? Structure it such that if you've got more entries than you can handle in a given class, they get to bump the smallest run group, provided that they have more cars than the run group in question. For example, let's say that the max run group size is 50 cars. You get 70 entries for Group 1 (say a week before the event). By that same cutoff date, you've only gotten 15 entries for Group 6. Guess what, the 15 people in Group 6 get a letter w/ their entry refunded, due to 'lack of participation', and the folks from Group 1 get the Group 6 slot.

As far as my Qualifying/Non-Qualifying concept, you didn't put up any good reasoning against it the last time, so I don't see that as changing now. It's time for the Regional-only classes listed in the GCR, to quit subsidizing National racing.

And I'm not saying that my Q/Non-Q concept doesn't need some refinement, or fleshing-out, but at least I'm trying to come up w/ ideas to improve things. It's the 21st century, and the climate in this club has changed. It's time for the structure to reflect that climate. And Jake, thanks for the kind words.

[Peter Olivola]

It's fair because, on a nationwide basis it would ensure that SCCA doesn't franctionalize. We're close to that now with some significant differences in class participation from division to division. The one thing that distinguishes our racing from NASA or EMRA or ICSCC or Midwest Council is our National Championship program. Allowing local participation on the basis of local preferences would quickly intensify the problem of divisional differences into an unmanagable state.

Any change that penalizes current competitors in pursuit of new participants is not my idea of a good thing for this club.

[Mazmarc63]

[quote]
It's time for the Regional-only classes listed in the GCR, to quit subsidizing National racing.

Interesting statement Bill. Over a decade ago three wise men in the SEDiv created a divisional enduro series called ECR (Endurance Championship Racing). This was a series for IT and SS cars only(restricted?). It was developed to help fill the schedule due to the lackluster entries at the May National weekend at Daytona. Can you say subsidize??

Over the last few years the Central Florida Region has included an IT only(restricted) regional race at the January.........you guessed it, National at Sebring.

Not that my rant provides anything to Andy's question. Bill's statement just reminded me of the "way it has been" for many, many years in CFR and how our Comp board chooses to "use" restricted regionals as an option.

[RP Performance]

Combining all formula cars in the same run group would get my attention as a Steward and I would be willing to pursue it via protest and appeal on safety grounds.

[snapback]59250[/snapback]

[/quote]


Is it really that bad to combine the open wheel cars? If we get any FA's it is only one car. I run in a group of 50 cars with a large speed difference also but with less room on the track because of the number of cars.

[dyoungre]

To flip it around, what is the difference between a restricted regional and a national, except for the list of classes that can NOT participate? We currently have one but not the other. Can we have concurrent regional and national races at the same track, on the same day? I believe that solution would then leave out the regional licensed drivers who run in a national class - not a large group.

I don't see what would be unfair about having one restricted regional for each (restricted) national race held in each region.

[Knestis]

Geesh. Raise the participation threshold to something sensible, enforce it, and make poorly subscribed classes go away completely and permanently, say over 10 years once its on probation - and the problem disappears in a puff of logic. The lack of strategic planning in Club Racing continues to amaze...

K

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Aug 29 2005, 09:59 PM
When you've got classes that are only allowed to run Regionals, they should absolutely get preferential treatment.

I completely agree.

"National" races are restricted to National-only classes. "Regional" races should be restricted to Regional-only classes, with an opportunity for National class cars to race as space is available. Regional racers are already shackled with shorter races to begin with, and now have to "compete" for track time with cars that have other opprotunities to race *PLUS* vintage and a lot of other catch-all classes.

Given that there are nowhere near as many National races as Regionals, I propose a compromise: 50% of the Regional races should be Restricted. I, for one, would gladly pay 50% more entry fees for less groups and more track time, and I bet a dollar to a donut that goes for a lot of other guys.

You want to race in a National class, go National racing, but don't expect the remaining SCCA drivers to accomodate you if you're uninterested in the tough competition. Regional races are not intended to be cheap track time for the National racers, either. Hey, sorry if you don't want to compete in National races in your Formula Ford, Formula Continental, or Production car; *I* don't want to have to compete with you for track time. Regional racing in the Northeast is very quickly becoming a poor value for the dollar.

And Andy: don't feel bad about shutting out specific segments of the membership; not only do we already do it now, it's coded into the GCR. It's called National racing. - GA