Scirocco II's in ITC

[madrabbit15]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1984-8v-vw-...997234368QQrdZ1



There is the link, it is an '84 red scirocco. I might try to get the vin number in a picture or something seeing how Topeka doesnt even believe that vin came in '84.



Derek

[Knestis]

Okay - this is a really academic question but why are we working so hard to find a VIN number that proves the 1.7 Scirocco II exists, when the one on Derek's car should be proof enough?

K

[Greg Amy]

Allow me to summarize:

1) The '84 Scheisrocket has been classified in ITC with a 1.7L engine, listed with either the wide- or close-ratio transaxle.

2) Neither Bill Miller (nor I) believed that a) the 1.7L was available in '84, and the close-ratio box was ever available with the 1.7L engine.

3) After speaking with Dick Shine and a few other folks, I learned that the 1.7L *was* available in '84, although it was extremely rare. However, I could find no evidence that the close-ratio box was ever delivered with a 1.7L engine, in any year, any car. The former point has been supported with VIN identification, the latter point unsupported.

4) Therefore, the "1984 1.7L Scirocco" point is moot.

So the issue at hand is now: is there any documentation to prove that the close-ratio transaxle ever came on any 1.7L Scirocco (or any other car with a 1.7, for that matter)? - GA

[madrabbit15]

Greg,

I appreciate your interest, but I feel you have missed something. From my understand all that Topeka has asked is to see at this point is a vin # from a '84 1.7. At this point that is what I am trying to find. They already have the 84' owners manuals.

Derek

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Sep 7 2005, 01:31 PM
From my understand all that Topeka has asked is to see at this point is a vin # from a '84 1.7.

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Exactly WHERE did you garner this understanding?? WHO has asked this??

[madrabbit15]

Originally posted by Bill Miller@Aug 31 2005, 02:01 PM
I got this from a current CRB member.

While I haven't seen it, my understanding about the supporting documentation is, that it was from a late '84 Owner's Manual. It didn't actually state the gear ratios, however, they were derived from what the suggested break-in speeds were.

As far as the '84 w/ the 1.7, the anecdotal (sp?) accounts are great, but I want to see photos of VIN tags that show the proper engine code and year code.

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Here ya go, Bill posted this after speaking to someone on the CRB. Thats where I got it.

Greg,

After finding that vin # with the engine code "A" as all of the records say is a 1.7 (other than a "C" for 1.8) and being an '84, I think you owe someone a six pack. I prefer a four pack of guiness. I will send my address if it will make a difference.

Thanks,

Derek

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Sep 7 2005, 07:08 PM
...I think you owe someone a six pack. I prefer a four pack of guiness.

I do believe you are correct, my man! (damn archives... ) How about we go double-or-nothing on the close-ratio?

Hell, I'll buy the 'twelve' anyway and share it with ya...

[madrabbit15]

This is a question for everyone.........

So If I were to actually find and have in my hand a vin tag from an '84 1.7 car , and all of the vw microfiche and other crap you guys are posting say that the wide ratio gear box was never put into an '84 car, then would that be any kind of evidence that a 1.7 might have come with other than a wide ratio box?

I just want to hear some options.............


Thanks,

Derek

[Knestis]

Again, I'm only in this for rules NERD reasons and don't have a dog in the fight, but...

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Sep 7 2005, 11:37 PM
..... So If I were to actually find and have in my hand a vin tag from an '84 1.7 car

You SHOULD already have one on your car, if that's what you've built. This is precisely the reason the VIN number, "can't build a model" requirement is on the books. If you don't have a VIN tag that says you have a "Scirocco II 1.7 (82-84)" then I'm afraid that you would lose the protest if I heard it. That's a dumb rule, I agree, but that's how it is.

On the other hand, I would find in your favor this season re: the close-ratio "GTI" gearbox, since that's what's in the rules (the ITCS spec line for your car), too. I am NOT in a position to come down on any side of the question, in any official capacity but I think my findings are supported by the current paperwork.

That all might change with the next ITCS release, of course.

... and all of the vw microfiche and other crap you guys are posting say that the wide ratio gear box was never put into an '84 car, then would that be any kind of evidence that a 1.7 might have come with other than a wide ratio box?

I'm not sure I understand the question here. The absence of evidence AGAINST something is NOT evidence to support it, if that's what you are asking. I think that at the end of the day, it's necessary to have something that shows the actual ratios before you can have anything defined into the spec line.

If that something - not an inference from break-in revs, since that's a huge stretch - shows the "wide ratio" (slow, economical) gearset, then that's legal. If it shows the "close ratio" (zoomy, GTI-spec) gears, then THEY are OK.

If documentation exists that shows both, even if it's in different places, then they logically would both be fine. I can completely believe that any of these resolutions are possible, given VW practice during transition builds but until it is in print in an official pub, it's not "right" and might get changed by CRB action.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think Kirk stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.



AB

[DENNISC020]

what info from VW would be helpful? I have a VW rep going to be at my dealership 9/14 and he has offered us his help. He is from Auburn Hills so he may access to info that may help us with production numbers. (1.7 vs 1.8)

[madrabbit15]

Kirk,

The reason we are seeking an '84 vin is because that is the year that the gearbox would have come on a 1.7. My car is an '83. '82-84' 1.7 scirocco II are on the same spec line. If it turns out that the gear box did come on an '84 and they want to add an new spec line because of it, thats fine, but right now they are on the same spec line. There are lots of cars in the gcr that were different models in different years that are on the same spec line.

People are doubting that a 1.7 even came in 84. That is something I think we know for a fact now. As far as the gear box, I hope it did, but right now it doesnt look like it. I am not a microfiche worm so I really do not research it to the extent that some of those guys have. I have gotten what I need to run either way. Ya, I would still like to use the close ratio, so if i find something that might support it great.

As far as my question goes, you answered it, and I tend to agree with you.

Derek

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Sep 7 2005, 07:08 PM
Here ya go, Bill posted this after speaking to someone on the CRB. Thats where I got it.

Greg,

After finding that vin # with the engine code "A" as all of the records say is a 1.7 (other than a "C" for 1.8) and being an '84, I think you owe someone a six pack. I prefer a four pack of guiness. I will send my address if it will make a difference.

Thanks,

Derek

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Wow Derek, talk about taking something totally out of context!! Why didn't you quote the whole post??

Greg,

Thanks for the info. My hope, in starting this thread, was to get people like Dick to chime in and contribute. Also, giving the timing of this whole thing, it's probably a moot point for the balance of '05. I got this from a current CRB member.

While I haven't seen it, my understanding about the supporting documentation is, that it was from a late '84 Owner's Manual. It didn't actually state the gear ratios, however, they were derived from what the suggested break-in speeds were.

As far as the '84 w/ the 1.7, the anecdotal (sp?) accounts are great, but I want to see photos of VIN tags that show the proper engine code and year code.

The "I got this from a current CRB member" comment was in the previous paragraph, and was in reference to something happening this year. It had absolutely nothing to do w/ the supporting documentation. I got that information from Eric Parham.

Shame on you Derek! Are those the kind of tactics you're going to resort to, taking comments totally out of context? As I said, I'll admit that I was wrong about an '84 Scirocco w/ a 1.7. I'll even send you your beer. In fact, I hope you enjoy it. But, it still doesn't prove squat for the close-ratio trans.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Sep 8 2005, 01:35 AM
... The reason we are seeking an '84 vin is because that is the year that the gearbox would have come on a 1.7.

That clarifies things - thanks, Derek. You are saying that the CR gearbox didn't come out until '84, so IF it were available, then that would be the only year that it could have been on the 1.7 Scirocco II, right? So far, that tracks. That's only half the battle, though - it's still necessary to demonstrate that it actually DID come on that car with that engine, but you know that.

My car is an '83. '82-84' 1.7 scirocco II are on the same spec line. If it turns out that the gear box did come on an '84 and they want to add an new spec line because of it, thats fine, but right now they are on the same spec line.

That is good news, as far as the ARRC is concerned for example. Worst case, you ditch the good 'box and you are protest-resistant. Thanks for indulging my curiousity.

K

[Bill Miller]

Well, it looks like if nothing else, VW is consistent w/ their inconsistent documentation. While the reported VIN# decode shows only a "C" engine code for the 1.8, it looks like VW didn't follow that. Here are pictures of VIN# info and trunk stickers from two different '84 Sciroccos

Grey car: Brown interior, Cruise control. Build: 10/83, Pewter Grey Metallic


White car: Blue interior. Build: 12/83, L90E - Alpine white





Note that both have an 'A' for the engine code digit (5th digit) in the VIN#, however both are listed as JH motors (1.8) on the trunk stickers. Based on the sequential section of the VIN# (last 6 digits), looks like first car was built prior to the one that Derek listed from fleabay, and the second one was built afterwards.

Also notice that there's a window sticker for the 1st car, which indicates a 1.8 engine. I know that Eric has stated that the trunk stickers can be in error, but I doubt that the window sticker would be in error. Talk about liability, advertising the car w/ a 1.8, when it has 1.7 in it.

So, I think it's pretty safe to say that you can not tell the engine size from the VIN# on (at the very least) a 1984 Scirocco.

Doesn't disprove that an '84 w/ a 1.7 doesn't exist, just shows that we can't go by the VIN#. Not sure what can be used then. Window sticker? Trunk sticker? Madam Zelda and her crystal ball?

Guess I'll have to drink that beer myself!

[madrabbit15]

I swear,

Production racing is sounding better and better all the time especially if you run a vw. This documentation thing with vin#s and build codes and vw documents that are not right makes it hard to prove anything and impossible to prove nothing.

Good find Bill. I guess after all this, I might have to drink a couple of six packs with you.


Derek

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Sep 8 2005, 05:54 PM
I swear,

Production racing is sounding better and better all the time especially if you run a vw. This documentation thing with vin#s and build codes and vw documents that are not right makes it hard to prove anything and impossible to prove nothing.

Good find Bill. I guess after all this, I might have to drink a couple of six packs with you.
Derek

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I suspect that more than a few Miatas will head to Production as well once SM gets a little crazy after it's a national class. And I agree with Derek, when you're racing a 20 yr old car, it's a pain to have to race with and document "stock" parts on a race car.

Derek, when you're ready to come on over to prod, we'll be here to welcome you!! I'm doing my best to recruit VW racers and convert them to prod racers!



MC

[charrbq]

If you think finding accurate documentation fromVW is tough, try a Honda. Honda continually modified parts throughout a year run and didn't tell anyone about it! This has been a major problem in the past, but it's been covered by the GCR/ITCS.
Derek, IMHO, if you built your car to the specs listed in the ITCS, it's legal. Unless the specs are modified in the future, screw 'em. You're fast, with a fast car...well built and well developed.
My only fear was the same as what I had when the fuel injected Civics came into C and the same as when the CRX's were dropped down from B. I feared that the development time involved and to be involved would be for naught as someone new came onto the block and kicked sand in my face. That's not been the case.
I didn't know you when you first raced with me in Atlanta. Admittedly, I was a slug which I found to be a broken header (and bad driving), but you rocketed by me in the ECR like I was sitting down. During the SARRC, I saw the difference...you were there, but not dominate. Again, my fear was that the car was new to the class and someone had built one that fast out of the box without the development time to come.
This is the same fear that the 510's and the Corolla's had when the Honda's came into ITC. History shows they were justified.
You and your car are front runners...that's all. When you get up towards the top, the air is thin.

As far as production, it's a great way to make a small fortune into pocket change. You can do more to a car, but then you have to. IMHO

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by charrbq@Sep 13 2005, 04:04 PM

As far as production, it's a great way to make a small fortune into pocket change. You can do more to a car, but then you have to. IMHO

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I agree with you there. If you want to run at the front in any class, you have to ante up. However, what's the going rate to run up front in ITS?? Talk about turning a fortune into pocket change! :119:

When I ran ITC, I just grew bored of not being able to do anything to the car to make it faster and with ITC fields shrinking, I decided to step up to the next level. I do miss the wheel to wheel racing in ITC but I DON'T miss dodging Wreck Pinatas...

MC

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Sep 14 2005, 02:24 PM
I agree with you there. If you want to run at the front in any class, you have to ante up. However, what's the going rate to run up front in ITS?? Talk about turning a fortune into pocket change! :119:

When I ran ITC, I just grew bored of not being able to do anything to the car to make it faster and with ITC fields shrinking, I decided to step up to the next level. I do miss the wheel to wheel racing in ITC but I DON'T miss dodging Wreck Pinatas...

MC

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Just wait 'till next year Mark!!!!