Why are Fords traditionally slow?

[MarkL]

This question has been bothering me since I got my first Ford. Unless you do a lot of work to them, which in IT is not legal, or in stock car racing is cost prohibitive, they are slow. I don't know about the muscle car era, I was too young. The Fox bodied Mustangs seem to go pretty good with a V-8, but again, that's not an IT car. They don't make much of a mark in Sprints, Midgets, or dirt late models. Forget sportsman drag-racing. They almost totally suck in WRC. Totally forget World Challenge. In NASCAR, the politics are totally wrong at the present time. What is the problem? They are too heavy, they don't handle, they never have any brakes, and they don't have enough power to get out of their own way. Why? I would rather push a Ford than drive anthing else, but if the parking brake is stuck, Im leaving! Whenever there is a Ford that runs, the parts or even the whole car is not available to the general public. That is just so wrong!!!

[grjones1]

Originally posted by MarkL:
This question has been bothering me since I got my first Ford. Unless you do a lot of work to them, which in IT is not legal, or in stock car racing is cost prohibitive, they are slow. I don't know about the muscle car era, I was too young. The Fox bodied Mustangs seem to go pretty good with a V-8, but again, that's not an IT car. They don't make much of a mark in Sprints, Midgets, or dirt late models. Forget sportsman drag-racing. They almost totally suck in WRC. Totally forget World Challenge. In NASCAR, the politics are totally wrong at the present time. What is the problem? They are too heavy, they don't handle, they never have any brakes, and they don't have enough power to get out of their own way. Why? I would rather push a Ford than drive anthing else, but if the parking brake is stuck, Im leaving! Whenever there is a Ford that runs, the parts or even the whole car is not available to the general public. That is just so wrong!!!

Mark,
I'll venture an answer here with some experience with a Fiesta. Small Fords have been traditionally inexpensive cars for the masses and because they are cheap they require development to overcome their shortcomings. Ford concentrates its racing efforts in venues not always available to amateur racers (FF and SRF being the exceptions) using Cosworth as their internatioanl racing development people, and the factory really could not care less about the grass roots guys, so we do the best we can. And eventhough the factory turns its back on us, the cars remain relatively inexpensive to campaign. As far as "slow" once they have been developed (even IT cars) they are usually competitive in their class. There are numerous examples: Lee Kaufman's EXP (and Escort before that which I belive won the MARRS championship at least one year) is pretty quick as is Dave Finchbaugh's Escort, and I like to think my Fiesta is not too bad either together with people like Jeff Leone, Craig Bucher and others; We're all (the MARRS guys) in the 1:34s at Summit Point and that puts us in the top 5. We all run pretty well at VIR also. Yes we break as often as anyone, but when we're right we can be fast. As far as power to weight: I don't see an overall disadvantage there especially with the Fiestas. Mustangs are foreign to me but they appear to do well in AS and elsewhere. So I wouldn't coincide Ford with "Slow."
GRJ

[SilverHorseRacing]

Developement, development, development. If you take any stock automobile, and compare it to any competitive car in a non-showroom stock class, you will find development is the difference in speed. (hell, even in SS development has to be done, whether the rules say so or not..)

I was as high as third last season in the SEDIV championship, and even having a bad accident at the championship race, I finished overall sixth in points, out of over 100 drivers. That didn't come in one week, that was the culmination of years of developing the car, and more importantly, the driver. This year, we built a new car, and within three weekends were in the top five, and short of growing pains of a new car (forgetting some details we had with the old one to be precise) we've done quite well, and that was with a BONE-STOCK 130k-mile engine. Next season, with a new powerplant, and more agressive gearing, expect to see us back in the game for the championship. Short of just running away from the field, I don't know how much faster you'd want to go...

Slow? I think not. You just have to learn what makes a car fast, nobody is going to hand it to you.

This isn't meant as a slam, it just seems by your post that you already had a predisposition to Fords being failures, which they don't have to be.


------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com

[joeg]

The Fiesta has the best weight to engine displacement ratio in ITC and is a good car.

The new WRC Focus is pretty good in 2003, competitive on all surfaces.

NASCAR is NASCAR, but Ford motors are pretty stout and EVERYONE uses a Ford 9 inch rear end!

[MarkL]

Marcello, I don't neccessarily want to run away from the field, but I don't want them running away from me, either. By the way, I KNOW how to develop a car. I would also like to know how many Mustangs have won in IT. For that matter, how many Fords have won in IT, period!? I think that GRJones was right. Ford doesn't care at all about the grassroots warrior.

[MarkL]

Chech that. I do too want to run away from the field. That would be cool.

P.S. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just wondering why Fords aren't as fast as Hondas or maybe even a VW.

[Greg Gauper]

I'm kinda suprised that nobody has ever tried to build a 1976 Capri II with a 2.3 motor. My father raced one in 1977 (he finished 5th at the Runoffs at Atlanta and Capri II's were also 1st & 2nd).

Those cars had good top end, decent brakes with Girling calipers, good aero numbers, and a real pretty body style.

I know Capri I's are listed in ITB with the 2.0 motor, but why not the Capri II's? Identical engine as the Pinto/Mustang. The 76's had a bump in compression from 8:1 to 9:1, same as the Mustangs. While not a high reving motor, I would think one would have gobs of torque.

Only down sides I can think of are 4 speed gearbox and rear leaf springs, but that shouldn't be a big deal since lots of race cars from that era had leaf springs.

[Diane]

Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
I'm kinda suprised that nobody has ever tried to build a 1976 Capri II with a 2.3 motor.

Can't see that they'd be much more competitive than a Mustang II in IT - don't see many of those either. The MII's are heavy for their size (IMO), I think the Capri's may be a bit lighter but not sure by how much.

In case someone thinks I'm slamming II's or Capris, no worry, I have a MII and autox'd it for a few years. Did not do much development in it though. Brakes were great, the Escort brakes are similar in stopping power.


Diane
1988 Escort
#21 ITB NER-SCCA

[Joe Craven]

Well, it is because of how SCCA has classified available Fords. I've been competitive in ITB with an early 71 Capri 2.0 It weighs 2300lbs, has ~135hp and good brakes. I'm able to turn nearly track record speeds, actually broke the Infineon track record this year but a 69 BMW 2002 broke it a bit more than I the same weekend. I also expect to break the Thunderhill record if we get to run there in good and cool weather. I've gone faster than the record before, so now I just need a bit of luck to get the right track weather. In regards to the Capri II, the 2.3 with the carb intake struggles to approach the 2.0 output in IT legal trim and the car weighs much more.

ITC - The Kent powered Fiesta, Cortina, Pinto and Capri (not currently listed) probably can be developed to be front runners

ITB - early Pinto 2.0, Capri 2.0 are the ITB Fords with the best front running potential. The SCCA GCR lists the Pinto with 8.6:1 compression but I think that the correct number is 9:1 like the Capri. With a 2230 race weight, it probably has the best potential.

ITA - I don't think any of the listed Fords have a chance. The 72 Capri V-6 probably has the best chance but the Honda CRXs are very tough to beat.

ITS - The only real Ford is the Contour non-SVT V-6. I don't know what potential that motor has.

#37 ITB - my fastest ITB car is the Capri although my VW is getting competitive

[joeg]

Mark--An ITC EXP is still the long course track record holder at the Glen.

Dave Flinchbaugh, Lee Kauffman and Chris Johnson are forces to be reckoned with in their ITC Escorts; Jeff Leone is very good and fast in his ITC Fiesta.

Bill and Dave Frieder were frequent winners and pole sitters at races at Nelson in their ITB Mustang.

Jon Ricker's ITB Escort is quick at Mid-Ohio and elsewhere.

Shall I go on and on????

[racerdrew43]

and don't forget......
an EXP is going to win the NARRC series next year.

[Diane]

Originally posted by joeg:

Bill and Dave Frieder were frequent winners and pole sitters at races at Nelson in their ITB Mustang.

Was that the blue one? They ran at NHIS late last year if it's them I'm thinking of. Nice car.

Someday you can add me to your list (I hope!)

Diane

[EscortGT]

There are a couple of Escorts running in ITA i believe, although im not sure how competetive they are. Ive got an Escort im preping right now which has some potential although im not sure its going to be any better than whats currently running. Its a tight little chassis, with a powerful engine (127hp stock) and a light weight so i dont see why it cant be competetive. but i guess development is the key.

Jc

[Rabbit07]

I drive an ITB Mustang at Waterford Hills and Finished 2nd in Championship points and had 1-4 place finishes all year long. I visited Grattan and Mid-Ohio this year and also saw some other strong running Fords

[Rabbit07]

I drive an ITB Mustang at Waterford Hills and Finished 2nd in Championship points and had 1-4 place finishes all year long. I visited Grattan and Mid-Ohio this year and also saw some other strong running Fords

[Kazoo]

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Originally posted by joeg:

Bill and Dave Frieder were frequent winners and pole sitters at races at Nelson in their ITB Mustang.
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>Was that the blue one? They ran at NHIS >late last year if it's them I'm thinking >of. Nice car.

>Someday you can add me to your list (I >hope!)

>Diane

Yes, that was us...however, NHIS...new track for us, bad setup and severe brake problems that weekend.

[Jiveslug]

Awesome, you guys have really come far with the Mustangs in ITB. My very first car was an '87 notchback 5.0. Loved that car. Im very familiar with the chassis layout too. Its been one of the cars Ive been thinking about building. I know Marcello has a great car and I love his website. This car is in my top 5 for potential race projects.