Fords in ITC???

[fiestadude]

Quote:

quote:Originally posted by grjones1:
[quote] [b] The heads use the same valve and port sizes as those miserable "federal" heads, there just not prone to porosity cracks. No competitive advantage other than being able to finish a race without blowing a head gasket.

Oh yea........you convinced me. Your absolutely sure theres's no differences in the original Fiesta head and the Formula Ford head sold by Ford other than the above mentioned cracks and there's absolutely no advantages due to port location. Their also all using 1.41 intake valves and 1.239 exhaust valves. We'll take a real close look later. One rule of racing is to know as much about your competitors car as your own car.
Harry

[This message has been edited by Harry (edited September 11, 2003).]
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I am in the MWD and I also race an ITC Fiesta. I had my motor dome by Charlie Williams (THE 1600 Ford Guru). He does a ton of rebuilds for all the Formula Ford guys each year; literally dozens of engines. I had a FF head that I ran across years ago & I took it to Charlie when he began work on my motor. I did this for the reason grjones1 mentioned. I had a crack in mine.

I looked in the tech manual; specs are the same. I watched the MIC being put on the valves; EXACT SAME SIZE. If Charlie tells me that they are the same; I would be hard pressed to disagree with him. He could be wrong, I guess 30 years in the Ford 1600 building business may not be enough experience in these matters (NOT!!!!!!)

I ended up using another STOCK Fiesta head, BTW, and I know 95% of the Fiesta's who run in MWD, and none of them I have seen are using a FF head. Not that it would make a difference anyway.

I have been blessed with a very good season so far. I have won 9 of the 10 events I have entered, and pulled off several double P1 weekends.

I just think that there are not that many NON-FIESTA ITC cars that are running around here. You may see a 510 now and then, a few Fiats, but most of ITC are Fiestas in the MWD

Harry: Do you race in ITC? A Fiesta?

Just curious.



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JJ
#62 ITC

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Harry:



Oh yea........you convinced me. Your absolutely sure theres's no differences in the original Fiesta head and the Formula Ford head sold by Ford other than the above mentioned cracks and there's absolutely no advantages due to port location. Their also all using 1.41 intake valves and 1.239 exhaust valves. We'll take a real close look later. One rule of racing is to know as much about your competitors car as your own car.
Harry

[This message has been edited by Harry (edited September 11, 2003).]

Harry,
I didn't mean to upset you, but there are nuances that need be discussed. First, if the Formula Ford head uses bigger valves (and I don't think it does, I think you are confusing the FF head with the "big-valve" head BAT sells) then one can install new valve seats that will accept standard-sized valves. As far as port configuration, you'll have to compare the two, I don't have one to compare it to. Another point for anyone using the FF head is that if parts are no longer being manufactured (and I don't beleive Ford still manufactures the "federal head") then alternative parts are being allowed. I think that's how VW people get away with the G-grind. My car outruns much of the competition due to close attention to legal mods, taking advantage of the Fiesta power-to-weight (e.g., we have a chrome-moly cage),and legal suspension mods. If you want to go witch hunting, I suggest you tear down a few VW transmissions, I'm pretty sure they are using everything from diesel truck gearing to GTI gear boxes. By the way, I welcome protests. I love to see my competitors wasting money they could have spent making their own cars faster or using practice days to improve their driving.
Regards,
G. Robert Jones



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[fiestadude]

grjones1:

I couldn't agree more.



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JJ
#62 ITC

[Joe Craven]

Guys, I was looking through the ITCS and Cortinas and Fiestas weigh 1780 lbs with driver which is excellent. Given the weight, Cortina could be competitive.

How much power can you guys get from one of the Kent motors?

BTW, the 510s in the SFR are pretty fast in the straights and they handle good too.

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Joe Craven:
Guys, I was looking through the ITCS and Cortinas and Fiestas weigh 1780 lbs with driver which is excellent. Given the weight, Cortina could be competitive.

How much power can you guys get from one of the Kent motors?

BTW, the 510s in the SFR are pretty fast in the straights and they handle good too.

Joe,
We have not dynoed, but I'm guessing with .40 over and proper machine work, the CR raised .5, a Weber 32/34 DMTR, really good header, balance and bluprinting, and proper timing, we're getting close to 100 HP with the Fiesta. The stock versions developed about 65 HP.
G. Robert Jones

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[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited September 14, 2003).]

[Harry]

Yes I will race a itc car in the MiDiv.racing for Mid-Am points all next year. 2003-2004 Mid-Div Permanent number is 20.
JJ #62, It looked to me like you got passed under the yellow a few weeks back. Darn shame the race ended under yellow due to the car on the track at the top of the hill (turn 8). The guy in the Mazda screwed up a great race.
So.....Get your 20# flywheels back in and make sure all the little crap finds it way back on the car. The ff head flows much more air that the federal even with a smaller seat and valve. I've seen a Volvo DQed at the ARRC because he had slightly smaller valves which in his case produced more air flow.
Enough Said,
Harry

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Harry:
Yes I will race a itc car in the MiDiv.racing for Mid-Am points all next year. 2003-2004 Mid-Div Permanent number is 20.
JJ #62, It looked to me like you got passed under the yellow a few weeks back. Darn shame the race ended under yellow due to the car on the track at the top of the hill (turn 8). The guy in the Mazda screwed up a great race.
So.....Get your 20# flywheels back in and make sure all the little crap finds it way back on the car. The ff head flows much more air that the federal even with a smaller seat and valve. I've seen a Volvo DQed at the ARRC because he had slightly smaller valves which in his case produced more air flow.
Enough Said,
Harry

You know Harry, in my 20 some years of racing experience, I've noticed that those people whose driving skill does not allow them to win on the track are the first to try to win in the tech shed.
If your knowledge of the Fiesta was complete, you would know that shaving the flywheel, in our case, just truing the surface, will eventually cause the clutch disc (stock configuration) to slip. so lightening the flywheel may have some limitations. And let's see now, reducing the valve size increases air flow but doesn't decrease mixture intake which would of course not affect power. I've heard it all now. Please come race against me I want to learn more.
I'm beginning to detect some unwarranted paranoia.
Good Luck,
G. Robert Jones

Addendum: If you look at F. in the ITCS it refers you to GCR 11.4 for measurement standards which states the "valve size is absolute maximum" which is +0.000 so if at the ARRC the Volvo was DQ'd for minimum measurement on the valves, he was screwed. That is to say replacement valves can be smaller but not larger. They are supposed to measure for within maximum, not for within minimum.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited September 17, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited September 17, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited September 17, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited September 25, 2003).]

[fiestadude]

Joe Craven:

The weight is awesome, but the lowest I have ever been able to get to is about 1925 with my big A#$ in the car. Cortina's would be a great car too, I just wonder about parts...

Harry:

I thought I got passed under yellow as well, but the corner workers did not think so, oh well, that's racing. I did not want to press it since I race with those guys in the #10 car every weekend, and they are good friends as well. DJ was not in the points so it did not hurt me in the champoinship run.

20# flywheels? I'm lost.



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JJ
#62 ITC

[grjones1]

Originally posted by fiestadude:
Joe Craven:

The weight is awesome, but the lowest I have ever been able to get to is about 1925 with my big A#$ in the car. Cortina's would be a great car too, I just wonder about parts...

Harry:

I thought I got passed under yellow as well, but the corner workers did not think so, oh well, that's racing. I did not want to press it since I race with those guys in the #10 car every weekend, and they are good friends as well. DJ was not in the points so it did not hurt me in the champoinship run.

20# flywheels? I'm lost.

JJ,
Email me at [email protected], and I can suggest how to lose another 100 pounds legally. (And we'll really drive Harry crazy.)
G. Robert

[FiestaFrank]

Just a point of interest. The only head legal for the Fiesta has a casting number 771 (all federalized Fiesta parts start with 771). The only legal intake is also 771. You can "check" and "verify" similar parts all you want, the rules are the rules. 2 motors with the exact same bore and stroke are not interchangable!

[grjones1]

Originally posted by FiestaFrank:
Just a point of interest. The only head legal for the Fiesta has a casting number 771 (all federalized Fiesta parts start with 771). The only legal intake is also 771. You can "check" and "verify" similar parts all you want, the rules are the rules. 2 motors with the exact same bore and stroke are not interchangable!

I assume Frank that from your pen name you drive a Fiesta, and I would ask: If the federal heads are out of production and all the used federal heads are cracked, do we then no longer race the Fiestas or do you have a solution for the cracked heads, which even after fixes will soon crack again?
I respectfully request a solution to this problem where the rules as you see them actually preclude racing a Fiesta in ITC. I would also add that nowhere in my ITCS does it say that parts must have a number stamped, only that parts that must remain as original must meet factory specifications. Otherwise most replacement parts (OEM-specified or not) would be illegal.

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited September 24, 2003).]

[FiestaFrank]

Working in the auto industry affords some opportunity to check into the details a little deeper. Although you are correct about your point ("where does it require a certain casting?") I can tell you that only the 771 casting was ever imported into the US. There is no equivalent alternative. Many assume the non-federalized head with the same valve size fits the SCCA's expectation of legal but the lack of the passages for the air pump mean it is not a suitable replacement part under the rules (similar but definately not equivalent). I'll gladly wager my paycheck that a non-federal head will NOT pass teardown at the ARRC (I'll never wager against regional teardowns because I've seen all kinds of stuff squeek thru). With Fiestas you have to be very careful - XR2's were sold in Canada (not legal for SCCA racing) and with the multitude of FF and the like there are many non-legal heads around. When discussing this issue with friends at SCCA HQ (note! former autocrosser makes big time - actually some are real racers) the standard reeply is they never guarentee that you can race your car even if it's classified. So if replacement heads are unavailable then submit a request to have an alternate head approved (BAT has tried over and over). If there's no alternate head specifically allowed and you can't find a uncracked head, in SCCA's words "Tough". This is exactly whu I've horded a number of them.

[FiestaFrank]

In no way do I mean to degrade the Fiestas in the previous post. Rather, I'd hate for somebody to go to the ARRC and have to deal with the embarrassment. I really think a well prepped Fiesta has a chance at a podium there, maybe one day I'll make it. Tracey Nine won twice in his Honda and I've run competitively with him before so I know its possible. Come on guys - who's going???

[grjones1]

Originally posted by FiestaFrank:
Working in the auto industry affords some opportunity to check into the details a little deeper. Although you are correct about your point ("where does it require a certain casting?") I can tell you that only the 771 casting was ever imported into the US. There is no equivalent alternative. Many assume the non-federalized head with the same valve size fits the SCCA's expectation of legal but the lack of the passages for the air pump mean it is not a suitable replacement part under the rules (similar but definately not equivalent). I'll gladly wager my paycheck that a non-federal head will NOT pass teardown at the ARRC (I'll never wager against regional teardowns because I've seen all kinds of stuff squeek thru). With Fiestas you have to be very careful - XR2's were sold in Canada (not legal for SCCA racing) and with the multitude of FF and the like there are many non-legal heads around. When discussing this issue with friends at SCCA HQ (note! former autocrosser makes big time - actually some are real racers) the standard reeply is they never guarentee that you can race your car even if it's classified. So if replacement heads are unavailable then submit a request to have an alternate head approved (BAT has tried over and over). If there's no alternate head specifically allowed and you can't find a uncracked head, in SCCA's words "Tough". This is exactly whu I've horded a number of them.

Frank,
Thanks for your input, you sound well informed. Please allow me to dispute a few points. The injection passages can be drilled and as the rules allow, plugged. (Please don't ask if I've done mine.)The valves and ports are the same as the federal head. The only difference is the casting number and the fact that the casting material is superior but still cast iron. (I'm not a metalurgist.) And if the casting numbers are not required by the ITCS and the head meets all specifications then the head should be legal. And in fact, if the SCCA can allow VW to create a replacement cam for the Rabbits and have it accepted, no logic on this planet can refute the reasonableness of accepting the alternative head for the Fiesta. If they can't, I have a feeling they are going to create a few new candidates for NASA. [More steps are being taken to effect acceptance.] I would add that if the inspectors at the ARRC did in fact DQ that Volvo for small valves, they did so lacking accordance with the GCR that from my reading (and please tell me if I'm wrong and let's get the rule written correctly)says they are only supposed to check for maximum valve size (+0.00) and cannot measure for a valve being too small? So I'm not convinced the ARRC inspectors are any better or worse than those at any regional event.
Thanks for indulging me and I would appreciate further comment.

[joeg]

I doubt even a genius tech inspector will know what to look for on that head--other than the obvious, like too much porting, etc.

Face it, these cars--while neat as hell--are ancient orphans. Unlike a Honda, you simply are not going to find many around--let alone on a race track--and most technical knowledge is in the hands of the owner-driver (and there are not likely to be many competitors driving the same car).

Use what you can to keep the car in competition.

[grjones1]

Originally posted by joeg:
I doubt even a genius tech inspector will know what to look for on that head--other than the obvious, like too much porting, etc.

Face it, these cars--while neat as hell--are ancient orphans. Unlike a Honda, you simply are not going to find many around--let alone on a race track--and most technical knowledge is in the hands of the owner-driver (and there are not likely to be many competitors driving the same car).

Use what you can to keep the car in competition.

Joeg,
Yours is my kind of attitude.

[grjones1]

Originally posted by FiestaFrank:
In no way do I mean to degrade the Fiestas in the previous post. Rather, I'd hate for somebody to go to the ARRC and have to deal with the embarrassment. I really think a well prepped Fiesta has a chance at a podium there, maybe one day I'll make it. Tracey Nine won twice in his Honda and I've run competitively with him before so I know its possible. Come on guys - who's going???

Frank,
It occured to me that perhaps you have connections with Ford, and you might have someone provide a replacement parts list that includes alternative heads (with air injection bosses for drilling)so this whole matter could be settled. SCCA does not have to approve anything. The rules state that if such a list is provided to National the parts may be used. Not true? I would also add that the heads were indeed imported to this country otherwise they wouldn't be here. Yes, for racing, and guess what, we're racing!




[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited September 27, 2003).]

[Fiesta#80ITC]

Frank I will be going to the ARRC this year with a Legal Motor I think the key to the Fiesta is in the suspension I have redone mine using all the same mounting points and this has made my car a winning car i make up all the time in the corners the engine is low on power but it is a very reliable engine I have had only 4 dnf's over the past 5 years and that was due to half shafts or hubs braking. as for the head and the intake I have a casting # of 771 on both of them. I think i should do very well at the ARRC this year I'm hoping for a top 5 finsh
Jeff Leone

[joeg]

Go get'em Jeff!!

[Ted_fiesta]

I recently bought a F production fiesta, it came with several spare heads. The FF head is OK in production class, so is it different, has anybody flow tested both heads? Anyhow the head on my car is FF, the spares are stock ford, I assume they are not cracked.
If the stock heads are prone to cracking then I don't consider the stock heads to be spares, does anybody want my spare heads? I think I have 3 or 4? Some complete some bare.
Perfer somebody come to the Philadelphia area and inspect/make offer. Otherwise they would have to be shipped. Either way if they are cracked you get your money back, but not the shipping. They are heavy to ship....
Also have a set of wheels that I don't really like, gold honey comb.
Anybody know where I can get more ATS wheels, they have 4 large holes, I think they were in some of the pictures in some of the BAT catalogs.

TED Heinritz