restrictor plate delete - not scca

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer:
Yeah, somebody hit the send button too soon.

The ITAC was supposed to wait until an E46 hit the track, then hit the send button on the email requests for the restrictor plate.

Bruce,

Seriously, why would you say this when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about?

FACT: ZERO letters came in asking for restriction of the E46.
FACT: The ITAC has NEVER recommeneded a restictor on any BMW in IT. It came right from the CRB.

Care to share why you are so sour? Doubt it.

Andy

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer:
Please, don't let facts cloud this issue.

Here's a fact... the post above said ALL the cars went faster with the new pavement... and yet STILL, the BMW was on top... Hmmmm...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[kthomas]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Here's a fact... the post above said ALL the cars went faster with the new pavement... and yet STILL, the BMW was on top... Hmmmm...

Hmmm, indeed. Me thinks the best driver was on top.

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katman

[Bruce Shafer]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Here's a fact... the post above said ALL the cars went faster with the new pavement... and yet STILL, the BMW was on top... Hmmmm...

Did I miss the section in the GCR where it says BMW's are not allowed to win? Or is the wording for that section still being hammered out?

There has been 5 ITS races in Florida so far this year, and no BMW's have won. Seems like things are about RIGHT, Hmmmm...

[mlytle]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer:

There has been 5 ITS races in Florida so far this year, and no BMW's have won. Seems like things are about RIGHT, Hmmmm...

yeah, i heard you had some fun with the hordes of rx7's at sebring bruce! i talked with john c last night. i guess his bmw got collected by a few of them in the rain race.

marshall

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer:
Did I miss the section in the GCR where it says BMW's are not allowed to win? Or is the wording for that section still being hammered out?

There has been 5 ITS races in Florida so far this year, and no BMW's have won. Seems like things are about RIGHT, Hmmmm...

Bruce,

Maybe things ARE about right NOW... That would be great... Or, maybe the "best" drivers didn't show up in BMWs at these events??? It works both ways...

No one has anything against BMWs winning... if the best drivers show up with the best prepared cars, then they should be capable of a win... regardless of what the car make/model is... That would be ideal...

By the same token, BMWs are not exempt from the same scrutiny that other makes receive...




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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[robits325is]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Bruce,

By the same token, BMWs are not exempt from the same scrutiny that other makes receive...

How many other makes of cars are required to run a restrictor plate? How many other cars are currently being considered for a competitive adjustment?

I've have seen ITA Acura Integras constantly dominate races and win with huge leads and nobody says a word.

Just my observation/opinion.

Rob Driscoll

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by robits325is:
How many other makes of cars are required to run a restrictor plate? How many other cars are currently being considered for a competitive adjustment?

No other cars currently run a restrictor. The numbers on the BMW were such to warrant either a weight adjustment or a restrictor... There may be others, but only so much can be done at one time...

All of IT is being looked at and considered...

Guys... the BMW is NOT a target of some witch hunt... It simply is the class of the field... NOT based on results, but based on data that describes the car's performance potential in relation to others in the class... The results just reflect that data...

Again, the goal is to bring some balance back to the classifications... That should leave the winning up to you...

When the BMW was introduced to ITS, it severely raised the performance parameters of the class and "marginalized" many cars that previously had been "competitive"... That is something that needs looking into and that some would like to correct...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited March 03, 2005).]

[Bruce Shafer]

yeah, i heard you had some fun with the hordes of rx7's at sebring bruce! i talked with john c last night. i guess his bmw got collected by a few of them in the rain race.

marshall

Marshall,

I enjoyed meeting John. Nice guy. I didn't get a chance to talk to him after Sunday's race, so I don't know what happened.

Somewhere on the first lap of that race I hit a big puddle hard and lost my serpentine belt. I thought something was wrong, but the steering feel was so different with the rain tires that I thought the belt was just slipping. The windshield was fogged bad and I was concentrating so hard trying to see out that I neglected to check my gauges on a regular basis. When I did check, both water temps were pegged. Got a solid 40 minutes out of that motor...

Bruce

Edit: Fixed quotes


[This message has been edited by Bruce Shafer (edited March 04, 2005).]

[robits325is]

Originally posted by Banzai240:

Guys... the BMW is NOT a target of some witch hunt... It simply is the class of the field... NOT based on results, but based on data that describes the car's performance potential in relation to others in the class... The results just reflect that data...

Not based on results? Why else would you impose a competitive adjustment other than results? The 'performance potential ' arguement has to stop. What if Honda of Japan showed up with 100 mechanics and a $10,000,000 budget - don't you think THAT car would be an overdog - reguardless of class? Rediculous argument but potentially possible.

The members of the BMW crowd that I speak too all feel that the SCCA dislikes BMWs that do well. (some voice their opinions publically and some privatly) From the Z4 incident($) at the runoffs to the restrictor plate on the E-36 to the typo on the E-46 they all have valid arguments.

The argument that results reflect the data is one sided. How many track records are held by BMWs nationwide - not at just Road Atlanta? How many years did the RX-7 dominate ITS in the 90's? Almost all of them.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by robits325is:
Not based on results? Why else would you impose a competitive adjustment other than results? The 'performance potential ' arguement has to stop. ... The argument that results reflect the data is one sided.

I disagree... If the data on the car did not explain it's performance, would we have adjusted it?? NO... The two correlate, and that is significant...

The members of the BMW crowd that I speak too all feel that the SCCA dislikes BMWs that do well. (some voice their opinions publically and some privatly) From the Z4 incident($) at the runoffs to the restrictor plate on the E-36 to the typo on the E-46 they all have valid arguments.

If that's the case, then why is the Z3 now in ITA? In the past, that car would have automatically been put into ITS...

I believe in the past the Porsches have recieved a raw deal, but BMWs seem to wind up competitive wherever they are classed... as evidence from your Z4 example above... Even WITH the restrictor, Jim managed to blow everyone else off the track that day...

Better driver??? Better car??? I'll leave that for you to decide...

I can assure you that, regardless of what you seem to think, the ITAC is certainly NOT anti-BMW... we just think they ought to be classed based on their potential...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[JeffYoung]

Your cars are fast, they'll be fast with the restrictor and they'll be even faster when the E46 gets developed. Like K-man said, lots of "horsepower" outside the motor.

DOn't understand the bellyaching. I really don't. Go race, win some races and have fun.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by robits325is:
How many other makes of cars are required to run a restrictor plate? How many other cars are currently being considered for a competitive adjustment?

I've have seen ITA Acura Integras constantly dominate races and win with huge leads and nobody says a word.

Just my observation/opinion.

Rob Driscoll

Ok, WHERE have you seen this world domination?? How MANY Integras are you speaking of? You have an "S" on Integra in your quote, so it has to be more than one.

And WHO have these cars run away from?

Listen, even MY car runs and hides from certain ITS RX-7s, and we all know that I am NOT the class of the either the 1st gen RX-7 field, nor ITA...

The context of your statement is very important, but totally missing...so it really holds little water.

Are the Integras fast? Yes, and people HAVE said things, but when you compare the best to the best (and that would be Serra in his Integra vs Stretch in his Nissan (formerly)), they are even up at Atlanta. The only guy I have seen locally really run with Serra is a CRX.

Sorry but comparing the Integra to the BMW isn't cutting it with me...



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[mlytle]

Originally posted by Bruce Shafer:
Marshall,

I enjoyed meeting John. Nice guy. I didn't get a chance to talk to him after Sunday's race, so I don't know what happened.

Somewhere on the first lap of that race I hit a big puddle hard and lost my serpentine belt. I thought something was wrong, but the steering feel was so different with the rain tires that I thought the belt was just slipping. The windshield was fogged bad and I was concentrating so hard trying to see out that I neglected to check my gauges on a regular basis. When I did check, both water temps were pegged. Got a solid 40 minutes out of that motor...

Bruce

yike bruce, sorry to hear about your engine. you seem to go through them on a regular basis. ouch.
marshall

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by robits325is:
Not based on results? Why else would you impose a competitive adjustment other than results? The 'performance potential ' arguement has to stop. What if Honda of Japan showed up with 100 mechanics and a $10,000,000 budget - don't you think THAT car would be an overdog - reguardless of class? Rediculous argument but potentially possible.

The members of the BMW crowd that I speak too all feel that the SCCA dislikes BMWs that do well. (some voice their opinions publically and some privatly) From the Z4 incident($) at the runoffs to the restrictor plate on the E-36 to the typo on the E-46 they all have valid arguments.

The argument that results reflect the data is one sided. How many track records are held by BMWs nationwide - not at just Road Atlanta? How many years did the RX-7 dominate ITS in the 90's? Almost all of them.

Dude...chill out! A typo is a valid arguement?? Pullleeeez!

Really, guys who own cars that aren't class dominating models read this stuff and roll their eyes! "I WISH I had the problems the BMW guys have",they say, or... "Gee...I WISH the SCCA hated MY car as much....I might have a shot at a win!"

Seriously, the rest of the classes are reading this and thinking "Me thinks they doth complain too much"...

To wit:

How many years did the 7 dominate? Dunno, but, factor in the number of samples vs the competition, and there might be some logic there. (As in, lots of 7s, not that many Z cars, all things equal, the 7 wins more.) And think about this for a minute , your comment makes an excellent point, but against against the BMW...

Think about it...They (the SCCA) class the RX-7 in ITS, and set the weight. Done. Seems OK, but what if it started to dominate, as you say it did. (presuming of course that the domination was caused by superior performance potential of the chassis vis a vis the competition)...what could the club actually DO to restore the balance??? They COULDN'T do a PCA on the car, because PCAs DIDN'T exist!

So, they classed another car they thought could compete...uh ....that's where the E36 comes in....!

Trouble is, IT develops WAY more RWHP than they figured on and now they have a mess....not just the RX-7, but the entire class is getting trounced.

What to do? Well, in the intervening years, some of us campaigned hard for PCAs, and lo and behold, one has been applied to a car that has the specs to be dominant.

Perhaps you would have preferred the club add another car to the class rendering the E36 to also ran status??



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[mlytle]

this is actually kinda funny,

"How many years did the 7 dominate? Dunno, but, factor in the number of samples vs the competition, and there might be some logic there. (As in, lots of 7s, not that many Z cars, all things equal, the 7 wins more.) And think about this for a minute , your comment makes an excellent point,...."

replace "7" with "bmw" and that same argument was made several months ago and shot down.

ya have to ask "why were there so many 7's?" maybe because they were perceived as the "dominant" or "fast" car to have? cars don't show up at the track in volume if they are percieved as mid pack or slower.

[JeffYoung]

You're right. This is funny. Anybody with a 325 complaining about having it tough is pretty damn funny.

[Joe Harlan]

cars don't show up at the track in volume if they are percieved as mid pack or slower.

Exactly the point if you pull the overdogs back just a click you could be back to four or five different models competting every weekend. I certainly don't dislike the E36 they have made me loads of money going back to work on older ITS car to stay competitive. The issue I have with them is the car that show up and is marginally prepped and marginally driven and overly competitive with competition that is at it's top level of development and driver skills. I expect the e36 to get faster every year as they get developed and that's not a bad thing. It is a bad thing if the numbers on the car end up so far out of the perfomace envelope of the class that it kills of the other competitors that aren't interested in driving a BMW.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by mlytle:
this is actually kinda funny,

replace "7" with "bmw" and that same argument was made several months ago and shot down.

ya have to ask "why were there so many 7's?" maybe because they were perceived as the "dominant" or "fast" car to have? cars don't show up at the track in volume if they are percieved as mid pack or slower.

Why?? Here's my answer to that....

I think that the 7 was classified in ITS very effectively. Dominant? My definition of dominant is when a particular model has better specs and performance than all other cars, no matter how well prepped the other cars are. Was the 7 dominant? No. because a well prepped early Z car had strengths over the 7 in certain areas, and vice versa. On any given day or track, it was a coin toss.

But, for several reasons, the 7s dominated the results, but not because the model was dominant. The domination was due to raw numbers. Mazda made and sold a ton of the car, and the US arm was VERY supportive of grassroots racing efforts of the 1st gen car, so the goundwork and parts channels were already there. And the 7 benefited from a decade of build improvements. Many old Z cars rusted from the frame rail insides out. The Mazdas held an advantage with the simplicity of it's motor, and by the relative freshenss and availability of good sound motors. Basically, the Z car was the eqaul performance wise, but more work and hassle to purchase, set up and run.

So, the 7 enjoyed tremendous popularity, and the race wins followed...but not due to it's performance superiority.

I remember the initial reaction when the plate was annonunced....a few E36 guys moaned that they were now going to actually have to finish development of their cars! Winning races in non fully developed cars over guys that have gone to the nth development degree makes it hard for others to find sympathy.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by robits325is:
Not based on results? Why else would you impose a competitive adjustment other than results? The 'performance potential ' arguement has to stop. What if Honda of Japan showed up with 100 mechanics and a $10,000,000 budget - don't you think THAT car would be an overdog - reguardless of class? Rediculous argument but potentially possible.

The members of the BMW crowd that I speak too all feel that the SCCA dislikes BMWs that do well. (some voice their opinions publically and some privatly) From the Z4 incident($) at the runoffs to the restrictor plate on the E-36 to the typo on the E-46 they all have valid arguments.

The argument that results reflect the data is one sided. How many track records are held by BMWs nationwide - not at just Road Atlanta? How many years did the RX-7 dominate ITS in the 90's? Almost all of them.

Can we see the landscape through something besides BMW-colored glasses?

I am willing to bet that the BMW holds records where the top cars are...where is the pocket of Bimmerworld cars? RA and VIR where Whittle runs...how about Ed York? Bet he has a couple...

The RX-7/240Z hold them where 1. There are no top BMW's OR 2. There are top versions of said RX-7 or 240Z.

We have a 'process'. The BMW blows that out of the water - and the data we have collected supports that it is to light (or makes to much power) for ITS as it is constituted now.

If *I* classed the E36 TODAY, it would weight 3100 without a restrictor. Same process as the RX-7, the 240Z, the Integra, etc...using known power numbers.

Look out beyond your own porch - and I can tell you that there is NO BMW bias with the current admin...there is an OVERDOG bias...something that has been lacking in the past. Good for the club? I think so.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com