In a couple of the other threads in Rules or Tech or both, they mention the 325's running 250+ crank HP in IT trim. Is this true? Thats a pretty neat trick, if true. Is this just the e36 bashers making claims or is the reality? Thanks.
Ken
Junior Member
250+ HP 325 in IT trim?
In a couple of the other threads in Rules or Tech or both, they mention the 325's running 250+ crank HP in IT trim. Is this true? Thats a pretty neat trick, if true. Is this just the e36 bashers making claims or is the reality? Thanks.
Ken
Senior Member
The distillation, after much "questioning negotiation" narrowed it down to the neighborhood of 217 RWHP.
Neat trick indeed.........
if you have one.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited February 19, 2003).]
Senior Member
215+ RWHP is around 253 crank hp using a 15% loss figure. These engines ROCK when you figure them out. BimmerWorld has done just that.Originally posted by vehdyn:
In a couple of the other threads in Rules or Tech or both, they mention the 325's running 250+ crank HP in IT trim. Is this true? Thats a pretty neat trick, if true. Is this just the e36 bashers making claims or is the reality? Thanks.
Ken
I really think the straight 6 is just a great design. Look at the power the BMW M3 makes in E46 form - 333hp - NA!
And the 2.4, 2.6 and 2.8's of the original Z-cars - timeless.
Through a couple turbos on one and you have the monster known as the Supra TT. I have seen over 400rwhp with bolt ons.
Gotta love it!
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Junior Member
Yes the new e46 M3 motor is a straight six, however, the similarities between and 93 e36 325 and it are few. The consensus I have heard today from people who have built legal IT BMW's is about 220-225 crank HP and about 200 RWHP. More power to whomever can squeeze out that extra 25 ponies, but could it just be rumor?
Ken
Senior Member
The driveline losses are higher than 18%. Unfortunately the guys that make the most power will never give correct numbers. I have a car for sale that I built for the ARRC that you can dyno and resell if interested...
I have no idea how much power the Z cars and RX-7s make. I know if I asked I wouldn't get a real answer or if I did, it isn't going to tell me anymore than I already know about how the car performs on the track.
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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
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Senior Member
James, do you perceive the Zs and the RX7s as being down on power to the 325is, or equal? Or even greater?
Senior Member
I'll tell you what you want to know. People with nothing to hide usually do.Originally posted by James Clay:
I have no idea how much power the Z cars and RX-7s make. I know if I asked I wouldn't get a real answer or if I did, it isn't going to tell me anymore than I already know about how the car performs on the track.
My motor makes 170 at the wheels. Full bore S5 'built' 13B's in 2nd gen RX-7's are around 180rwhp from what I have learned. Now the 130ft/lbs is another horrifying issue...
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Senior Member
I guess what I should have said is I don't care how much power other cars are making other than the E36 cars because that is the only one I compare directly to. And quite honestly, I don't actually care about other E36 cars.Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I'll tell you what you want to know. People with nothing to hide usually do.
And I have nothing to hide - but I have no ointention of setting a benchmark for others to work toward.
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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------
Senior Member
I know you guys don't have anything to hide. I just reacted to the notion that people won't tell you (or me) what kind of power they are making when they know. It stinks of CHEATING.Originally posted by James Clay:
And I have nothing to hide - but I have no ointention of setting a benchmark for others to work toward.
And when YOU guys protect YOUR E36 numbers, you have additional agenda. I would bet you guys are afraid to let people know the actual numbers because they would cause a riot in ITS. Not your problem, its ours.
Thanks for being on this board. It's nice to have the top builders represented to clear up grey areas.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Member
I've heard 225 RW HP at a local shop shortly followed by an RX7 at more than 40 HP less. I suspect the BW E36's are higher.
No rules other than weight can begin to equalize this. The older technology of the RX7 EFI system severely limits it's open ECU potential as compared to the E36 or other newer cars, yet to be classified. Not all EFI systems are created equally!
Jeff
Junior Member
No way. 225 RWHP? That is just talk. So using James' 18% loss number (remember he said it is actually higher), that means he is getting 265 HP out of 2.5 liters with stock cams? THat would be a pretty slick to add 75 ponies from stock. If this thread keeps going, I am sure the number will climb to 275 soon.
Ken
Senior Member
If you read between the lines well, the number that wasn't "denied" was in the 215 RWHP range. I'm sure that some motors are a strong 215, while others can't quite get there, but I doubt seriously, (after reading what the guys who build them say) that 225 RWHP is a reality. Urban myth.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Senior Member
I don't believe that cars prepared by Bimmerworld (or any other really reputable shop) can AFFORD to cheat - they are too big of a target.
I understand James' reticence to divulge what he knows but - again - I don't believe that it "smacks of CHEATING". It smacks of knowing that the 325 makes monster HP without having to cheat. I will TOTALLY agree, having had a chance to watch them on the track at Summit last summer, that it is not all about power with this car. I would suggest that some of their strength comes from a really good rear suspension design that lets them use it. It's the sum of the parts.
However (and with due respect), telling the world how many horsies a properly tweaked 325 powerplant makes is NOT giving up the farm. It would do me no good at all to know that James' car made 210 or 270hp at the flywheel, without having the knowledge and wherewithal to find it. It might, truth be told, piss off a lot of people but (a) not anyone who isn't already upset, and (probably not to any greater degree.
Kirk
Senior Member
Originally posted by vehdyn:
No way. 225 RWHP? That is just talk. So using James' 18% loss number (remember he said it is actually higher), that means he is getting 265 HP out of 2.5 liters with stock cams? THat would be a pretty slick to add 75 ponies from stock. If this thread keeps going, I am sure the number will climb to 275 soon.
Ken
The probelem here is that nobody with a maxed out BimmerWorld 325 will post their ACTUAL RWHP numbers. Me thinks it's because they are so high we will all screem even louder.
I just got done looking at the thread we had before you were on the board. 215rwhp is the number that wasn't denied. 215 / .82 = 262 crank hp.
And guess what??? The BW contingent admits to there being more power to be had. FACT.
The key is the chip. If you are running the stock chip, you are nowhere near these numbers.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Senior Member
History question: Was the E36 classified BEFORE the ECU rule change??? Or after?
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Junior Member
By no means am I assuming James is cheating. Just the opposite. I think others are speculating, exaggerating, etc. Having been around the Bimmer scene for awhile and trading research for some time with other owners, I think the estimates are pretty high. My assumptions are intake, exhaust, and custom chip. If he can do it, more power to him. No pun intended. (Well, maybe just a little bit)
Cheers,
Ken
Senior Member
My bad if I implied the BW guys are cheating. In fact, it has been proven that the stuff they brought to the AARC was legal.
I was trying to say that the numbers are so good that they are having a hard time with actually telling people for fear it will validate the suspisions based on actual on track data.
The hp numbers in my previous post are accurate based on posts by BW car owners. They have unlocked the secret to power. For those who don't believe it, race next to one, I have.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Senior Member
Given the weight advantage over an E36, this is pretty equal to a near-perfect M50 motor with intake, header/exhaust and chip.Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Full bore S5 'built' 13B's in 2nd gen RX-7's are around 180rwhp from what I have learned.
AB
I know from my own results that it is quite a bit less than 215 hp. I can't speak for BW.
Dan
Senior Member
Dan,
The data might work for your car, but a SpeedSource RX-7 at 180 and a BimmerWorld 325 at 215 are light years apart. And that is before we even talk torque. I bet there is OVER 100ft/lbs difference.
And we are only talking 170 pounds different in min weight.
The comparision is top dog against top dog.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Senior Member
If we take 215 RWHP as an agreed upon #, we get a power to weight ratio of 13.26. Assuming 180 for the RX-7 we wind up with 14.90.
hey- I wouldn't mind having 14.90, as Im at 19.3 (actually, according to my dyno, 22.45~) and my class leaders are at 17.12.
Of course, if my competition had 13.26, I'd be worried...it's almost 2 pounds difference. Not insignificant.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
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