spec tire for it-7

[Hotshoe]

Okay, here goes
...I should keep my mouth shut but, when I read some of the comments made here I feel like everyone should know what a good tire is capable of.
...I have tried them all. And for a Novice a Toyo is the best tire. It is durable and has a fair amount of grip. Only down fall is it has a limited slip angle. I have a difficult time keeping the tire in a slide before it looses grip completely.
...Hoosier is my tire of choice for that very reason. It has the better feel in the corner. I can overdrive the entry into a corner and rely on the tire to help slow the car. A Toyo will only loose grip. That is where the biggest speed difference is between the two tires.
...Most drivers that do not know how to drive a Hoosier tire usually end up burning off the front tires because they do not drive the car into the corner hard enough.
...I can run either tire and turn almost the same lap times but I prefer the Hoosier over the Toyo because it is a better RACE tire. It has better grip, more performance, and with the different compounds it has more versatility. They are well worth the difference in price. If you know what you are feeling you can really FEEL the difference.

...Please, say.... NO .... to the spec tire rule..... Thank You

....Rick Thompson # 99 IT7

FYI...The last time I drove a Toyo tire was this fall in the 13 hour race at VIR. My best lap was a 2.23 in a Spec Miata. That time is better than most of the IT7 cars that want to have the spec tire. And considering that the Miata should be at least a second a lap slower than an IT7...Go figure?

[Boswoj]

Since everyone is weighing in on this one, I guess I'll run my opinion up the flag pole as well.

Spec tires are intended to put the emphasis back on the driver and not on the wallet. Period. This is in no way intended as a slight to Hoosier - quite the opposite. Hoosier makes a great product, but it is so good, so expensive, and so short lived that they can make a HUGE difference in a year's racing budget. The idea that Hoosiers in current sprint race usage last anything like a Toyo is ludicrous. If you want to grab a quick one to two second advantage on your competition, dig deep into that wallet. After about six heat cycles that advantage is gone, and the grip takes a pretty linear dive down to, and below the Toyos. This is typically what happens to affordable classes - someone finds a high dollar tweak because they want to run at the front and it separates the "haves" from the "have nots". What you have to ask yourself is will you feel good about winning a race or championship against an exactly equal car with a driver that has driving skills that are one second better than yours, because you have a tire budget that allows you to grab two seconds on equipment alone. Why not just have everyone bring a cash machine receipt to the track and award the trophies to the biggest bank balance? A spec tire helps make sure it's about the DRIVER, not the WALLET.

Happy Holidays everyone!
Boswoj

[crushed]

If you want to race with a spec tire there is a class for you! It's called Spec Miata. One of the things I love about IT-7 is the freedom to modify my car how I choose. IT-7 is not supposed to be a spec class. I love the fact that you can have 5 cars all prepared differently all running within .5 sec of eachother, it makes for really exciting racing. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to spend big bucks and make an IT-7 go faster (ceramic apex seals anyone?). You're going to see more stuff like that if the Toyo is speced.

Bottom line is the frontrunners will still be the frontrunners, and will probably spend the money they were going to spend on Hoosiers making their cars faster in other ways. Racing is expensive, thats just how it is. IT-7 is one of the cheapest classes around (if not the cheapest), I don't think it needs to be cheaper. I probably have one of the smallest budgets in IT-7, and I would rather spend the extra cash to have more fun on a proper racing tire and eat ramen noodles for a month then to be forced to race on Toyos.


------------------
Russ Marshall
#31 IT-7

[Hotshoe]

[quote]Originally posted by crushed:
I probably have one of the smallest budgets in IT-7, and I would rather spend the extra cash to have more fun on a proper racing tire and eat ramen noodles for a month then to be forced to race on Toyos.


....Now that is what I call a RACER.

...I work two jobs, quit smoking and drinking, just so I can afford to race.

...But some of the people that complain are not as dedicated. So instead of bringing a "Cash Machine Receipt" how about a "Time Card" showing how much effort was put forth to get there. Don't even think that MONEY buys everything. I work over 70 hours a week to support my HOBBY so I feel like (all prejudice aside) I deserve to buy a GOOD set of tires.

...Russ.... I like ramen noodles too ...LOL

...Rick Thompson # 99 IT7

[Quickshoe]

IF a tire was developed that, when new, was 1 second a lap faster than a Hoosier. Lasted 2-30 minute heat cycle before it fell off to below new Hoosier level and cost $1200/set...would the tire expense required to run up front then be a problem? Okay how about 2 seconds, 1 heat cycle and $1500 ?

All it takes is one otherwise equally prepped and driven car, to show up on the Gumbo 870S and you are racing for second place.

That is what I feel we have with the Hoosier situation. As long as the competition for first place isn't on new Hoosiers you don't need to be either. But if they are, you better be too or settle for second. Do people win who aren't on new Hoosiers? Sure, but not against otherwise equal competition.

I don't know many people who work 70 hours a week and eat Ramen because they like coming in second. Getting rid of the neccessity for Hoosiers will give you the option to step up to Mac n' Cheese. Or spend your same dollar on things that net you less speed for the buck. Or better yet, aren't highly consumable.

Rick mentioned a few posts ago something like "it is not just the tires"...I AGREE and that is why, under the right circumstances I WOULD SUPPORT a spec tire. Put us all on rock-hard snot slick tires, it will just put more ephasis on driver ability which is fine with me. It is the race not the ride that puts a smile on my face. I don't need an advantage to be willing to race with anybody. Equal equipment is all I strive for, leave the rest up to me. I have always strived for no excuse cars. The less expensive that no excuse car is the better I eat. You can still out spend me in other areas but they will have less of an impact on your lap times per dollar than the tires, guaranteed.

Further, when I do win you won't be claiming it is only because I can afford new Gumbo 870s.

Happy Holidays!

------------------
Daryl DeArman
ex ITA and EProd 1st gen Rx7 and ITA Mk1 MR2
current owner of a FV, who still visits this site because the Vee forums aren't near as fun.--and no there isn't anything to do on my Vee right now or I'd be doing it

[Marcus Miller]

Originally posted by joeracerx95:
*snip* I took 10 out of 11 poles and won 10 out of 11 races. Toyos really are consistent from new until cords are showing. *snip*

Yeah, but you got beat by a girl!
Marcus #67

(P.S. Next time please give me a bit more of a tow when lapping me )

[gran racing]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">So the racers that are buying Hoosiers now would simply be mounting new cheap tires at every race. So there would still be no economic equality created by a spec tire. Ask a Spec Miata driver about new Hankooks versus old Hankooks.</font>

Perfect! So people that are spending more money will be going slower then people that use all of their tire. The Toyo RA-1s DO get faster as they become more "worn out". Think of it this way, they start out like a real DOT should look like then work wear down and start getting more of a slick look. We've compared lap times from a new Toyo to a very used Toyo. The used one is faster. Pretty freakn' cool if you ask me.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If you want to race with a spec tire there is a class for you! It's called Spec Miata. One of the things I love about IT-7 is the freedom to modify my car how I choose. IT-7 is not supposed to be a spec class.</font>

That is just silly. As far as I know, tires are not the only thing spec with the Miatas. Making a spec tire does not impact the real things that are different about the cars - not tires.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Bottom line is the frontrunners will still be the frontrunners</font>

Umm, o.k. The point of a spec tire would be to save money for everyone. Sure, it helps equalize things with tires and that is a bad thing? Who else will this help? The front runners!

I've been a mid-pack ITA driver (on a good day). Because of this, there has been no incentive to lay out the cash and buy Hoosiers. Does it really matter if I finish 12th or 13th? So I have been using Toyos (als used Kumos). Now that I'm moving to ITB, for me to have a shot at winning I absolutely must use Hoosiers. Well that stinks. My tire budget just blew up.

I would absolutely love to race in a class that has a spec tire. Heck, going along with what Jake said have Hoosier develop a tire that lasts twice as long as their existing tire and make that the spec tire. Fine by me.


------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[dickita15]

I too am quite suprised by the resitance to a spec tire, although I am getting quite used to having people here disagree with me.
heck tires are the biggest part of my budget and I would love a spec tire. now I know in IT that is impossible as we use so many different wheel and tire sizes, but if i was running a class that could specify a limited number of sizes like IT7 it just seems like a natural. I am not a fan of spec miata but I am jealous of there abilty to run all year on 2 sets of tires.
dick

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited December 25, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

I am surprised too...

It reminds me of wine.

Do I enjoy a great wine? Sure, and I can tell the difference. But at a hundred a bottle? No, there are plenty of "reasonable" wines that are really good. The cost/benefit ratio is out of line.

I see the same thing in tires, except that it seems that half the table likes the mega expensive wine, and the rest have to pay that rate as well, or not even be sitting at the same table.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Hotshoe]

...Okay lets look at this from a "stuck in a rut" perspective. I see a lot of opinions from people that do not have a dog in this fight. Which makes me wonder why the concern? This is a SEDiv class, and if the change is made it will only effect us.
...Seems to me that a few of the people that are making comments have also stated class philosophy that "everyone knows the rules before they choose the car they build" Hoosier and Toyo where there before IT7 so what happened to that soap box?
...Hoosier tires may be quicker than the other tire brands. So why not do this the Democratic way. Ban them. Run anything else you want. Seems like the prejudice thing to do. Lets run BFG R1s the bottom of the barrel junk. I run a set of these for test days to help set my cars balance. And they are unshaven and still run 2.25s @ VIR. Oh, why do I run BFGs? I prefer to flat spot junk tires instead of good ones.
...Bottom line, Class philosophy states that we run ITA rules. I knew that when I built my car and I would prefer for the rules to stay that way. Especially when we are being compared to ITA all the time (Thanks to the ITB petitioners).
...If someone wants to run a spec tired car I would suggest a SRF. I have run Yokohamas and they are the cheapest tire out there. Since this seems to be the reasoning behind the tire problem is cost.
.... And when all is said and done let us toast with a bottle of .....vintage.....Thunderbird.

......Merry Christmas everyone

[dickita15]

rick
don't get upset, we yankees don't get a vote. I just mentioned my suprise at some of the opinions expressed. I guess I just don't get it. frostbite must have gotten to my brain.
dick patullo

[Hotshoe]

Dick
...Don't tell anyone but, I'm a Yankee too. I served my country in the USAF as a law enforcement investigator. And then got left here in Goldsboro, N.C.
...So now I get to pick on "them" all the time. LOL
...I'm still kind of partial to my home town, Punxsutawney,Pa. Home of Phil the groundhog.

...Rick Thompson

[joeracerx95]

Originally posted by Marcus Miller:
Yeah, but you got beat by a girl!
Marcus #67

(P.S. Next time please give me a bit more of a tow when lapping me )

Good one! She's also the one that took that one pole away from me.

But I did feel pretty good managing to finish third with a broken Watts link.

I'll see what I can do on that tow.



[This message has been edited by joeracerx95 (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
I see a lot of opinions from people that do not have a dog in this fight. Which makes me wonder why the concern? This is a SEDiv class, and if the change is made it will only effect us.

Only effect you in the short term. It could have the effect of the idea of a spec tire becoming more generally accepted. Sometimes, those without a vested interest in the outcome can offer a more objective opinion. However, I do have a dog in this fight--indirectly. The tire I race on is more expensive and lasts less time than the 13" Hoosier. There is only one other tire manufactured that is approved in the class and you will not run up front on it. So those who choose to use it are those without the rest of the things required to run up front. I'd love it if we all used that other cheaper, slower, longer lasting tire because then I could utilize that same dollar for more seat time. I'd love to see spec tires more widely accepted.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Seems to me that a few of the people that are making comments have also stated class philosophy that \"everyone knows the rules before they choose the car they build\" Hoosier and Toyo where there before IT7 so what happened to that soap box?</font>

I'm still on it. I knew going in that if I wanted to run up front, this (expensive tire) is what it is going to take. Doesn't mean that I would not support a cost reducing measure that affects all makes and models equally. I am not willing to go to the cheaper tire if others don't, but certainly willing to do so if everyone else does. If it gets to the point where I think I can win on that other tire...I'll do it, even if I believe I am losing a little time relative to the other tires. The more important thing is I am not losing time and position to my competitors.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Class philosophy states that we run ITA rules. I knew that when I built my car and I would prefer for the rules to stay that way.</font>

Now there is a point I can get my head around. If you want the flexibility to run ITA or IT-7 and still have a chance at being competitive in each without requiring two sets of tires and two different optimum setup's, I can understand that. You are able to now, a spec tire for IT-7 only would change that. Some might say "tough crap--at least you have the option of two different classes." Some people don't seem to like it when you have more options than them because you did your homework. Now they'd be changing that after the fact---not cool.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If someone wants to run a spec tired car I would suggest a SRF.</font>

Ex-nay on the Spec Racer Ord-fay. I have no interest in running that class. I prefer enough spec to know that my driving is what is making the most difference, but want enough freedom to tinker a little bit and have more variety between cars than the number and paint job.

I don't feel spec tires work in all situations. I have raced in three classes with a spec tire.

#1. Pro series with manufacturer support. Had to run their tire. It was cheap (Hoosier Dirt Stockers at $60/ea mounted) AND Hoosier contributed to end of year point fund. Good for everyone other than Mc Creary.

#2. Go kart spec hard tire. Allowed us to spend money on other go fast stuff and race more for the same buck. This class rotated the spec compound year to year--Bridgestone one year, Dunlop the next and then Vega the year after that and continued the cycle. Two spec tire classes out of 19 meant that it didn't hurt the tire importers/distributers too bad because they still had 17 other classes with an open tire rule. The drawback was that dealers knew you had to run that tire and prices went up about 10-20% that year. However, those same kart shops that were only selling me 2 sets of tires a year instead of 15 were now doing my motor 6 times a year instead of 3. Where they were enjoying a larger margin on the motor instead of the tires.

#3. Club Formula Ford--Tire was cheap and could last 20 or more heat cycles. Problem was that it lost about .5 second a lap by the third heat cycle. This meant that if you wanted to run up front you needed newer tires all the time anyway. I don't feel that is the case with the TOYO. However---If the old toyo is faster because of the shorter treadblocks then the fast guys will come out with new shaved to 1/32" toyos all the time and then you have done nothing to reduce costs. Only made it mandatory that you show up with new shaved toyos all the time.

Merry Christmas!


[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 26, 2004).]

[gran racing]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I see a lot of opinions from people that do not have a dog in this fight. Which makes me wonder why the concern? This is a SEDiv class, and if the change is made it will only effect us.</font>

Fine. Let me restate it then. I would love it if IT as a whole used Toyo RA-1s as their spec tire. (Or another tire that lasts long.) Heck, I'd be fine using the BFGs.

What do most people like about running IT cars versus other spec classes? The fact that my car will have advantages and disadvantages compared to other cars. That's what makes it intersting. Other spec cars can not say that is true. Does having a spec tire change any of this? No, not at all.

World Challenge runs Toyos only, and that doesn't seem to hurt their uniqeness between cars.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Hotshoe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
...Hoosier tires may be quicker than the other tire brands. So why not do this the Democratic way. Ban them. Run anything else you want. Seems like the prejudice thing to do. Lets run BFG R1s the bottom of the barrel junk. [/B]

.....Come on now, if you are going to pick apart what I say don't skip over the good "down to the truth" stuff.
...Seems to me that we have some people present that will buy cheap land next to an airport or maybe even a race track. Then after the house is built they want something done about the noise.
...So read the quote above, seems like the only logical solution. I'm not endorsing any particular tire, and considering that this is CLUB racing I don't see where anyone else should be either.

...Now this should be interesting...LOL

....Rick Thompson

[Boswoj]

OK - a few point to add for the more OPEN MINDED here:

1) The only dog required in this fight is an OPINION. Well thought out, reasonably presented opinions are preferable, but even stupid, whiney, poorly concieved opinions are protected by the basic tenant of free speech. If I find myself in your neck of the woods for some unknown reason, I would love to come out and race in your class against anyone here is who is a driver. I competed in 20 races last year over a large geographic area, so it is not inconcievable that it could happen!

2) A good idea is a good idea.....it's that simple. I don't slam you for not agreeing with me, because this forum's whole reason for being is the free exchange of ideas! At least I am open minded enough to give you a chance to convince me of your point. (Before punching several gaping logical holes through it's soft and self-serving underbelly, of course!){meant as a joke, no disrespect intended!}

3) Yes, if the spec tire was BFG R1's or Falken Azenzi's or Joe Bob's Cheap as Hell Hard as Rock "Floor it and steer like crazy" YeeHaw Racin' Specials I'm fine with it. I agree totally with the poster above - I'm here for the race not for the ride. I want to know whos fastest, not who's car is fastest. I just watched the 5th Gear episode where the guy bought Schumachers 2002 F1 car and he intends to drive exhibitions all over the world. If it's just about the money, go buy that car and cross America setting the outright lap record at every single track in the country on lapping days. If it's about RACING, then lets make sure we encourage drivers to come out and challenge us without scaring them away with our tire budgets. THAT is what the IT classes are really about. If IT just isn't fast enough for you and you want to really find out about tire performance and big budgets, get into a Production or better yet a GT car. By your own description of what is important to you in a tire, you haven't even scratched the surface with DOT radials!!!!! Your favorite Hoosier DOT tires are absolute RAGS compared to Goodyear and Hoosier slicks. (Imagine the difference between RA-1's and worn out snow tires and you get the picture)

Boswoj

[This message has been edited by Boswoj (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
.....Come on now, if you are going to pick apart what I say don't skip over the good "down to the truth" stuff.

I didn't mean to present it like I was picking it apart. I replied with my post structured like that in an attempt to make it easier to read.

I omitted the section you quoted above because it didn't make sense to me what you were trying to say. Therefore, I didn't have an opinion one way or the other.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...Seems to me that we have some people present that will buy cheap land next to an airport or maybe even a race track. Then after the house is built they want something done about the noise.</font>

Not even close to what I am about.

It is apparent that we have different philosophies. That's okay. I don't understand your logic about not wanting to do anything that might slow your car down, or changing its' class "status". Anymore than you probably understand my desire to keep equipment required to run up front less expensive.

I have always raced slow inexpensive cars. I race a vee for crying out loud. A Formula Ford before that, IT cars as well. They are all slow, just some slower than others.

I use the fast tires because I need them to win. Do I use them because a 1:41 feels faster than a 1:43 and puts a bigger smile on my face? No. A 1:43 will put a big smile on my face when everyone else is turning 1:43.001's. F1 tires, Hoosier radials or whatever...it is like putting lipstick on a pig.

on edit--quote brackets messed up.

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Hotshoe]

Boswaj,
...Let me clue you in on what exactly is happening here since no one has.
...Blair Stitt (an IT7 Driver) is sending out a ballot to vote for a spec tire. The only choice is Toyo RA-1s. That is the only choice.
...That is where the problem starts. I couldn't care less about the spec tire deal. Doesn't matter. Truth is Blair doesn't like Hoosier, thus the meaning for my comment.
...Instead of compromising all the other brands why not tell the truth and Ban the one you don't like. I think it might push the maker of the tire to maybe better it's product.
...To exclude all, is not fair to the suppliers. But to chastise one until they get in line is better business. And thus better for all of us.
...Steve started this thread because he runs Kumhos. Good tire, why can't it be a choice? I hear of no problems with any other tire so why not address the problem directly and confront Hoosier? Instead of disguising it with a (what did you call it? whiney? poorly conceived?)ballot.
...I believe we all should have a choice. Maybe even more than one. Not based on one persons prejudice.

...Now you know the rest of the story...

...Rick Thompson


[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited December 26, 2004).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Is it REALLY the reason? Because he doesn't LIKE Hoosier? I doubt it. I bet he has the same 'issue' with the GY GSC-S. They are great race tires that don't happen to last very long.

The Hankook and the Toyo are on par with each other. The new Hoosier, the new Kumho and the GY are all faster and just don't last as long.

I still haven't heard a good reason NOT to have a spec tire. All it does is take a crap-load of money out of the season formula. It still takes a TON of development to make them go fast within your own application.

Since IT7 is a self-policing entity, I think a spec tire fits well. For those of you wanting to be able to run both IT7 and ITA, then having a set of Hoosier's - or whatever will cost you no more than it did before...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com