Attn: First gen guys...

[lateapex911]

Sorry Rick...not sure of the analogy you're refering to...

Of course you're right, consistency and some racing luck, or lack of bad luck are the keys.

But what I'm trying to see here is potential , and the relative differences between cars in different classes.

Are the conclusions a fair indication of the relative potentials of the cars at VIR?

(I think the sample, and the players, so far, aren't going to lead to a true picture of the situation at Barber unless there are more results that I haven't found)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Hotshoe]

Jake:

...If the information that Dick compiled about VIR was to be averaged, it would have the RX7 at a slight disadvantage but, those numbers are for fastest lap not race lap averages. Some cars are better in traffic, draft better, and a host of other variables not taken into consideration.

... I would rather see a performance adjustment made to the RX7 to help make it more competitive for those with less than expected results.

...Now this is just my opinion so don't burn me at the stake for saying this. Especially you ITB guys.

...1. I consider an RX7 to be a good ITA class car but it needs less restrictions on the motor.

...2. Adding weight (to a car that is already stressing the brakes) does not make sense to me.

...3. Having those of us that have spent thousands of dollars on wheels that will fit nothing else, just to loose an inch and go to 6" wheels is not very cost effective. (You can street port a motor cheaper)

...4.I have had experience running with the ITB group and it was a feeling of hostility to say the least. They put our group, IT7, in with them for a whole season and they did not like us then and they sure will not like us if they put us in ITB. Believe me, been there done that.......

.....I have several other reasons but these are the most important to me. I can see the biggest disadvantage is power related so, it would be nice to have some more.

....Fire Away....

Rick Thompson

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Jake:

... Some cars are better in traffic, draft better, and a host of other variables not taken into consideration.

... I would rather see a performance adjustment made to the RX7 to help make it more competitive for those with less than expected results.

...1. I consider an RX7 to be a good ITA class car but it needs less restrictions on the motor.

...2. Adding weight (to a car that is already stressing the brakes) does not make sense to me.

...3. Having those of us that have spent thousands of dollars on wheels that will fit nothing else, just to loose an inch and go to 6" wheels is not very cost effective. (You can street port a motor cheaper)

...4.I have had experience running with the ITB group and it was a feeling of hostility to say the least. They put our group, IT7, in with them for a whole season and they did not like us then and they sure will not like us if they put us in ITB. Believe me, been there done that.......


....Fire Away....

Rick Thompson

A long time ago, on this forum, we were discussing PCAs, and it was getting heated. I commented that while it appeared we were miles apart, that a table, a few beers and an hour or so would have us agreeing that we all had good points and we were closer than we think. I think this is similar.....

First, I agree that staying in A is by far the better option....IF it were an option.

Do you agree that, in A, the RX-7 is one of those cars that has some "race disadvantages"? I think it has a couple issues:

A- Throttle response- Due to the rotary's relative lack torque, and the carbs use of vacuum secondaries, even when I get a jump at the start, and move a few feet on the other guys, they hit the throttle, and poof! So much for my jump. Of course, the right revs, and some loading help, but during a race, the response difference is often apparent.

B- Torque. Or lack of. Some tracks just don't work with our transmission ratios, and the lack of toque is a hurdle. Hills can be excruciating.

So...you like the idea of "enhancements" to the car and staying in the class?

1- Less restrictions? Such as?? How much HP do you think would be needed? (Lets say, just for the sake of the debate, that we need to run 1:44.0 at RA to be 'in the game' at a national level....I'd use other tracks if we had the same data base of known top line ITA drivers results ....)

So, what torque/hp do you think would do the trick?

How do you suggest it be attained?

2- Extra weight & the affect on the brakes. I am unsure if 100 pounds would make a black and white difference. Besides, IF the car needs to be slowed down to move to B, weight will affect all parameters. Braking included, by design.

3- Agreed....buying new wheels, (lets say 3 sets) sucks. This is clearly a personal issue. You see no need to do it becasue you are running in IT7 and have plenty of races with plenty of other IT7 guys. Those with no IT7 class, (and therefor less RX-7s showing up), would obviously rather suck it up, spend the bucks and actually have a chance.
I have no idea what street porting costs.

4- I guess the acceptance of the car in B is going to vary from region to region and from driver to driver. Those that I have talked to in ITB welcome the concept if it is done fairly. But I imagine all are not as secure and big picture oriented. I am surprised you sensed hostility when running in the same group with the B guys...you weren't stealing trophies..whats up with that?

So...if we were to stay in A, how can we best accomplish competitive parity, and follow the philisophical base of the IT category??




------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Jake, maybe you as one of the people who has all this knowledge of WHY the 1st gen RX-7 can not be fast enough (unless it's illegal)in ITA should figure out what amount of Street Porting (what the shape would be) would keep the 7 capable of racing with the newer model cars within ITA. You know, talk to your Pro motor builders (no names required) & get some numbers & post the numbers for conversation. If I was good at searching I would retreive the info from the Production site. A couple builders posted some 12A info there.

[Hotshoe]

Jake:

...I'm not familiar with the numbers but, some of the guys around here that use to drag race RX7s have told me that a basic street port picked up their 1/8 mile times by .5

...I imagine Mike at ISC Racing could probably provide us with some good TESTED results as far as porting and the gains that can be achieved.

...I think this would be the most economical performance gain. Almost all of us go through our motors, so porting would not cost much more.

....Rick....

[lateapex911]

This is an intersting concept.

The equivilent parts in a piston engine are the valve sizes, and the cam, as the port size and location change the amount of intake and exhaust charge, as well as the timing. There are no provisions in IT to change cams nor valve sizes. I am very doubtful that the ITAC, and the CRB would consider such a concept.

The other issue would be the regulation of the port, and the enforcement of it.

Also, I would imagine competitors would cry "foul" much faster and louder than if the car were moved down a class. The word "porting" conjures up big time fear in all those who must compete.

We discussed other options in previous threads, such as intake port matching, weight loss, beveled rotors, and alternate carbs, but there seemed to be no solution that was physically possible, produced the appropriate power, and met the philosophical needs of the category. But, perhaps there are other ideas.

Which is why I am looking at other solutions...such as reclassing with a rim change and weight adjustment.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Banzai240]

Street Porting???

Guys, I can all but assure you that no such allowance is going to be granted this car under the current ITAC or CRBs watch... Talk about opening up Pandora's box...

If the car is to be made to fit, it needs to be made to fit under current IT rules, without any special allowances, or at least that's my personal perspective on it... (here come the arguments about the "port-matching rule for rotaries... a special "non-allowance"... )

Con-Call tomorrow night... This one's going to be interesting!


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[dickita15]

guys darin is right. there is a huge worry that porting would get out of hand. we all know that a dremel tool can make huge power. You might make a case for port matching the intake manifold only but I would guess it eould not do much. The only thought I have is a alternate carb. the concept of alternate carbs is acceptable in IT. does anyone have any experience with a holly with a non ported motor. how much power could you make with a non ported motor and a stock intake. I would love a solution that would save my 13 wheels, I just don't know what it is
dick patullo

[Hotshoe]

Darin:

...I only suggested porting as a "cheaper than buying new wheels" comparison.

...Are there any acceptable power gains that could be approved?

...I understand that "porting" can get out of hand. But so can a lot of things if they are not properly implemented.

____Rick Thompson

[JeffYoung]

Darin, been out for a few days running the 13 hour Enduro at VIR...great fun. Just saw your post above, totally agree, my car is an S car if not for torque alone (175 ft lbs. stock) and my comments were tongue in cheek.

Some of us -- 944 drivers, TR8 drivers (and there are more than you think out there, at least 3 still running and 2 more prepped cars but "retired" that I know of), 190E drivers, etc. -- belong in S even though we don't win (although tell that to the Doyles in the TR8s out in the MidWest, or Flynn in the 190E from Florida, or Camadella in the 944 up North).

I guess here is the point that I am driving at. Certain car choices have significant disadvantages. It is much easier to make a 325i or a 2nd Gen RX7 or a CRX go fast than a 944 or a TR8 or even a 1st Gen RX7. If you make that car choice, you are "stuck" with being held to the performance of the fastest guys in that car who may have (a) more time to develop it; ( more knowledge about racing the car and even © more driving talent.

Guys, I know I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I see this (moving the 1st Gen RX7 to B because a portion of them are not competitive in A) as a potentially big problem for IT. If we started moving cars based on averages as opposed to what the best cars and the best drivers in those cars can do, we are opening a hellacious can of worms.

At the three tracks I visit regularly (VIR, Roebling and CMP), IT7 cars run with and BEAT ITS and ITA cars. I really think it has something do with the prep levels and driver talent in IT7 here in the SEDiv, NCR, CCR and Buccaneer regions.

It is really hard for me to see moving those cars to B when, as I think was mentioned above, an IT7 car competed with an ITS 2nd Gen RX7 for the win at CMP this year.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:

It is really hard for me to see moving those cars to B when, as I think was mentioned above, an IT7 car competed with an ITS 2nd Gen RX7 for the win at CMP this year.

Yeah, but I lap ITS cars all the time too! Using that as proof is like trying to prove a negative...

As far As I can tell the fast IT7 guys you run with will get creamed at all the classic road circuits in America if the best talent in ITA shows up. Even at VIR, the IT7 is 2 seconds of the ITA pace, and the ITA class isn't strong there.

Relevent and credible results are the important ones....and by credible I mean results where known class leaders are setting the marks, and the confidence in the legal state is high.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JeffYoung]

Jake, I can't wait to meet you, I think we would really get along, but I strongly, strongly disagree with the idea that the IT7 guys from my region would get creamed at any track if they had time to learn it.

At three tracks in this region they typically run in front of the fast A cars. Why, with sufficient seat time, that wouldn't traslate into similar results at other tracks I don't understand. I know Road Atlanta may be a special case because of the the long straight and the ups and downs, but for momentum tracks and "mixed" tracks like VIR, I'll put that group up against anyone.

Roebling is a good example. It's a 1:25 or so "momentum" track. RX7s routinely run in the top 5 there (not just Rick, but Jeff Ryan as well). Why would that not, with sufficient seat team, translate into similar results at say Lime Rock.

I'm sorry Jake, I just see this one as one of those instances where the average should not dictate the result. There are a LOT of of 1st gen RX7s out there, some fast, many slow. Using the average to place the car in class is dangerous in my view.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jef,

I can tell you that you and Jake would definately get along. Two quality guys always do.

Here is my issue. You seem to have the top IT7 guys in the country in your backyard. The point I, along with Jake is trying to make is that we don't think the ITA talent they race against regularly is representative of the 'best of the best' that you agree we need to use.

I would love to have Rick T. run in ITA at the ARRC to see where a prime example of a car/driver stacks up against the ITA crop that will be there. The fastest Acura's in the Northeast will be there...and trust me, they are FAST.

As for Rick running with an ITS car at a year-end event...it's just simply not an apples to apples comparison. Rick is either out-driving and/or out preparing the ITS car (I suspect both). The ITA/7 is NO MATCH for an equally prepared and driven 2nd gen. This can NOT be debated.

All we want to see is the best against the best - and the best ITA drivers will be at the ARRC (BTW: is Stretch running?)

I'll start a "Rick to the ARRC" fund to make it happen. $50 is the first pledge. Who is in?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[JeffYoung]

Andy, good post. I think I included it in my first post that started this, but I agree, it appears (and no offense to the A drivers in the SEDiv, who routinely beat me) that relatively speaking the A drivers in the NEDiv are faster in comparision in the IT7 drivers.

I fully understand that is the background you and Jake come from, and what drives the belief (and it has logical and empirical support) that the 7 belongs in B. I think you guys understand that I come from a different background, where IT7s fit in well, and run well with the ITS/ITA/IT7 crowd.

One word on Rick running with the frontrunning ITS car at CMP (by the way, the winner was an ITA Miata). That S car is the series champ, and runs fast times at all the tracks he shows up at. The car is prepped and driven very well.

I just think that after 11 years in the car, Rick gets more out of a 1st Gen RX7 than anyone can rightfully expect, and he is a hell of a driver. He ran a Spec Miata for the first time at VIR at the enduro, and turned a lap less than 1.5 seconds of the track record. Pretty impressive.

So, Rick, maybe it is time to go back to the AARC and show everyone what a 7 can do.....or maybe we in the NCR kick in $50 to get some of the fast guys from A in the NEDiv down to VIR for SARRC/MARRS in May?

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
If the car *should* be in ITB, then it should. Upsetting the apple cart in a specific Region doesn't bother me IF the cars *should* be together.

Andy,

My question is "HOW do you determine whether or not it belongs in ITB?"

If you look at results one could argue that one known legal example shows what the cars' full potential is. If one legal ITS BMW can turn laps of "x" then all legal same model cars have at least that same potential when equally prepared and driven.

So then comes the question as to what results do we look at? Many regions will show that the 7 is a good fit in B. Do you then throw it in B and further frustrate those B drivers in the few regions where the 7 would dominate B without much effort? Or do you look at a region where it would clearly dominate and therfore say "it doesn't fit in B" so it stays in A, and many 7's continue to race in IT7...

This is an example of why many cried "be careful what you hope for" when the posibility of future adjustments where first talked about on this site.

You've got to look at the cars' potential on paper. If you were classing the car today where would you put it? If you think the 7 is greater than the sum of its parts than the formula is wrong. Certain adjustments either carry too much weight, or not enough and there lies the rub...how do you know how much to tweak the formula if you don't look at results....

We will never be able to conclusively prove it with hard facts, too many variables, too many unknowns. Too many different types of tracks, prep levels, and levels of competition.

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:

I would love to have Rick T. run in ITA at the ARRC to see where a prime example of a car/driver stacks up against the ITA crop that will be there.

actually we already know this. it was discussed above. according to the results rick gave us he is very close to two other it7 drivers Jeff Ryan and Attila Luckas (sp?) and they ran top 3 at the arrc and got creamed by the ITA cars.
Rick did not dispute this but said that road atlanta should not be the standard.


and jeff there are great ITA cars in the SE. There were 5 within 1.5 seconds of the fast lap at the arrc last year. it is just none of them raced against Rick in the results he provided.

please anyone show me where any of these 3 great IT7 cars are beating up any of these five great ITA cars in the SE. I can not find any proof of that anywhere.

dick

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
Andy,

My question is "HOW do you determine whether or not it belongs in ITB?"

If you look at results one could argue that one known legal example shows what the cars' full potential is. If one legal ITS BMW can turn laps of "x" then all legal same model cars have at least that same potential when equally prepared and driven.

So then comes the question as to what results do we look at? Many regions will show that the 7 is a good fit in B. Do you then throw it in B and further frustrate those B drivers in the few regions where the 7 would dominate B without much effort? Or do you look at a region where it would clearly dominate and therfore say "it doesn't fit in B" so it stays in A, and many 7's continue to race in IT7...

This is an example of why many cried "be careful what you hope for" when the posibility of future adjustments where first talked about on this site.

You've got to look at the cars' potential on paper. If you were classing the car today where would you put it? If you think the 7 is greater than the sum of its parts than the formula is wrong. Certain adjustments either carry too much weight, or not enough and there lies the rub...how do you know how much to tweak the formula if you don't look at results....

We will never be able to conclusively prove it with hard facts, too many variables, too many unknowns. Too many different types of tracks, prep levels, and levels of competition.

IF we were classing this car right now, *I* would vote for it in ITB. IMHO, the stats all point to B. I also don't think the car is greater than the sum of it's parts. The stock HP is lower than the top ITB cars, the suspension is inferior and the engine, while able to rev, makes little torque.

Looking at the cream of the crop is the MOST important thing. It has been said here time and time again that Regional results must be scrubbed down to really know what they mean. Just because the IT7 leader can run with the ITS leader on a given weekend DOES NOT mean anything except the ITS driver was outclassed. I said it earlier - EVERYTHING BEING EQUAL - driver AND equipment, an IT7 car is NO MATCH for a 2nd gen RX-7. Simple - no debate.

The issue is that we are getting requests with solid data that shows the car should be in ITB, yet there are people who are running them that say it can run in ITA - yet those people don't run in ITA, they run in IT7 - which is a class born out of the frustration of being comeptitive in ITA...Confusing to me at least. But you have to take into account those that run them that say they can be there in ITA. Why? Because it HURTS the cause, not helps it. It's a confusing position, maybe a brutally honest one - and that is great.

The results we need to find are the apples to apples versions. The best against the best. But guess what? The best IT7 that is being used as the barometer for debate doesn't run against the fastest ITA cars in the country...

...so we have to continue to research and examine our members letters and available data to try and figure this out.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Quickshoe]

We seem to agree...maybe my post that you debated was poorly written.

As far as the motives of those with 7's who "believe" it should be in A. I'd agree that they are just being brutally honest, not looking for any breaks, if they were currently racing it in A. Perhaps their motives are that they don't want to be marked "whiner" by lobbying for the move. If/when it happens, it will be a little easier on them since they weren't for the change.

I haven't written a letter for/against the move because I no longer own a 1st gen nor an IT car. So, while I have an opinion, the outcome doesn't affect me so I don't feel I have the right to weigh in officially.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:

I haven't written a letter for/against the move because I no longer own a 1st gen nor an IT car. So, while I have an opinion, the outcome doesn't affect me so I don't feel I have the right to weigh in officially.

Actually, the opinions of people WITHOUT dogs in the fight are refreshing. It's nice to have an opinion of someone who doesn't stand to benefit either way.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[gran racing]

I'm still in favor of the slow the RX7 down a bit and move it to B idea. Just an estimate from what I have seen on a limited number of tracks, but it would probably be necessary to add ~ 150 lbs. This wouldn't mean that the other spec rx7 class has to be eliminated. Keep it there - eventually it will die out of natural causes.

Some have mentioned the acceptance into B issue. This should have no impact on the decision being made. When the proposal was being made for my car to be moved to B, a few people told me that I won't be accepted in that class. You know what, if that's true so be it. Of course everyone wants to be liked especially in the club racing level. But I'd rather be in a class where I can be competitive. And if people don't like me because of the car I drive, well then... Besides, things and attitudes can change. Part of this responsibilty falls on the shoulder of the person being moved into the new class. It can take some effort to gain peoples respect.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si