Attn: First gen guys...

[ITSRX7]

I know Kirk isn't going to like this but:

These Regional results have some value, but it is so very limited. Each one of us thinks that the guy at the front of his class is a great driver with great equipment. The reality is that only very few out there actually know what to look for. Very few actually know what it takes in terms of $, car prep, driver skill and testing/tuning to go fast. That is why the AARC is such a valuable data point.

In theory, the best combinations of well-prepped cars and top drivers go and run up front. In addition, the tech-shed at this event is one of the toughest in the country all year based on the nature of the event.

Having said that, it is obvious that you can't take a single event and draw 100% of your conclusions, but this event is a great source of information given the facts.

Every bit of data must be scrubbed down and condidered for what it is in what context it came from.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Banzai240]

As you sift through LARGE quantities of data, patterns begin to emerge...

The results above reflect the results from the ARRC, which reflect the results from all over the country...

What I see in all of this data is simple... In the following order, here are the best cars in ITA:

Honda
Integra
240SX
Miata
...
...
RX-7
MR-2

One or two outliers doesn't change this pattern...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 14, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Are the motor builders who use numbers like 130 hp/100 #ft. at the rear wheels National level builders. Share the builder names.

Have Fun
David

Yes, they are nationally known builders/tuners/gurus from the SE and western parts of the country who are known for reliable and legal work.

As different dynos can produce different numbers on the same car, keep in mind that the numbers I mentioned have ranges to them.

I will call around and get permission before I start naming names!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Boswoj]

Hi Darin -

The Hondas and Acuras have definitely changed the playing field here in the NW, although the lap times don't tell the whole story. One of the big unknowns in any comparison like this is the relative prep level of the cars and skill level of the drivers. There is a pretty healthy contingent of Pro-7 drivers in Conference (ICSCC) and almost all of them drive ITA as a second class. Even the most serious of those make no more modifications between races than switching to a larger tire and perhaps taking out a little weight so it's hard to equate true competitive potential from those particular times. Even with Rx-7s fully developed, I think some of the Honda/Acura packages are pretty serious overdogs in the class, which is to say nothing bad about the competitors. The Honda drivers seem to be a real tight knit group of good guys and it is really attracting some new young blood to the class. If an ITB spec line read something like a Pro-7 package then I'm sure it would attract lots of 1st gens out of the woodwork as it would represent an opportunity to actually be competitive and revitalize a class that has dwindled to nearly non-existant in the Northwest. Just as a reference point, the dominant Pro-7 driver in Conference made a vacation loop through Thunderhill and Sears Point last year and found a group of well developed ITB 2002's that were too fast for him, at least in Pro-7 trim.

Other comments:

1) ITA Miatas being guys who are basically afraid to judged as drivers if they drive SM?????!!!! - Wow! I don't claim to understand the motivation behind why any driver picks a certain class, but I'm guessing that is hardly ever the reaason. In my case, I bought a 1st gen Rx-7 which was puportedly a Pro-7 car. I was a rookie and didn't spend enough time with the rulebook first so I took it at face value. After I got it home I realized it was WAAAYYY illegal and the rest is history. Pro-7 to ITA to RS to EP for no other reason than I like to work on my car, I like to be legal, and I had targets that I wanted to race against so I made the car fast enough to do so. Probably unfair to label all of our Miata ITA friends as cowards and losers.

2) Even if there is some hairy chested, Honda beatin', he-man stud out there who doesn't want to be reclassified 'cuz he already has to hold his 1st gen back a bit so as to not embarrass his competition, the data stays the same. A 1st gen Rx-7 just doesn't have the competitive potential of some of it's newer contenders in the class, although it is still one of the most cost effective and educational cars available.

3) As far as the track descriptions - pretty accurate with a couple of added points. Mission Raceway - VERY tight in spots, like STOP/turn/accelerate at two places a lap - a place where torque is handy, and rotaries don't make much! Spokane Raceway Park - front straight is over 3/4 of a mile, so HP and aerodynamics pay large dividends. 2002's at a serious disadvantage, but nothing a pointy nose and a couple extra gears wouldn't fix. (Visions of a BMW 2002 "Superbird" hehe)

Anyway - interesting thread. Thanks to all who enjoy a civil and technical debate on things like this. There is far too much anger and name-calling on a lot of the boards these days.

Rick Bostrom
ICSCC #155 EP (EIP) & SPM 1st gen Rx-7

[This message has been edited by Boswoj (edited October 14, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Boswoj (edited October 14, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Boswoj:
[B]Hi Darin -

...... In my case, I bought a 1st gen Rx-7 which was puportedly a Pro-7 car. I was a rookie and didn't spend enough time with the rulebook first so I took it at face value. After I got it home I realized it was WAAAYYY illegal and the rest is history.

Rick Bostrom
ICSCC #155 EP (EIP) & SPM 1st gen Rx-7

B]

Thanks Rick. More insights are good.

Interesting comment regarding the legal condition of your carwhen you bought it. This is a story I hear a LOT. Scary...makes you wonder whats really running out there.....



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Boswoj:
There is a pretty healthy contingent of Pro-7 drivers in Conference (ICSCC) and almost all of them drive ITA as a second class. Even the most serious of those make no more modifications between races than switching to a larger tire and perhaps taking out a little weight so it's hard to equate true competitive potential from those particular times.

This actually helps to shed more light on what I really wanted to show by including the PRO-7 times...

The cars CAN be slowed down with weight and smaller tires...

It doesn't look like ICSCC has much in the way of an ITB group, which is why I didn't include those times... I only found a couple of results sheets that even included an ITB car... apparently, not a real popular class this season...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Mike,

Good stuff. Great to have you here.

One thing to also understand is that this thread is more of a 'global' discussion where as IT7 is only a 'regional' one....

Andy,

Thanks! And FWIW, I *do* appreciate the "global" nature of this board, and racing in general. I mentioned IT7 only to give other a context in which to view my comments. Reclassed or not, I really don't have much to gain OR lose.

Having said that, I would like to reiterate what I posted a couple of days ago. If the "7" ends up in "B" and I have a shot at running up front there, I will change my class designation in a minute!

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Boswoj:
If an ITB spec line read something like a Pro-7 package then I'm sure it would attract lots of 1st gens out of the woodwork as it would represent an opportunity to actually be competitive and revitalize a class that has dwindled to nearly non-existant in the Northwest. B]

out of curiosity what are diferences with the pro-7 rules
dick

[Quickshoe]

I am from the "Rx7 can't compete in "A" and not certain that it needs more weight to go to "B" crowd.

However, when comparing lap times of ITA 7's with 'B' cars and other ITA cars all over the country please keep in mind that most of the 7's will not be fully prepared and driven by the best drivers. While the fastest B's probably will be. I am sure there are exceptions.

I make this generalization because if I were to make the commitment to fully develop an ITA car and had the skills neccessary to take it to the front...would I build an RX7? Heck no! Because of that you won't find many that are fully developed AND well driven.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Boswoj:
1) ITA Miatas being guys who are basically afraid to judged as drivers if they drive SM?????!!!! - Wow! I don't claim to understand the motivation behind why any driver picks a certain class, but I'm guessing that is hardly ever the reaason

Not certain if this was in response to my comment or another elsewhere in the thread. I didn't mean to infer that they were afraid to be judged.

I wrote:GENERALLY SPEAKING: The guys/gals who race an ITA Miata are racing in ITA rather than SM because the competition is tougher in SM and in SM they have no one to blame but the nut behind the wheel.

What I meant is that if I build a MIATA and race in SM, come in 23rd of 25. Where do I look? Behind the wheel. If I don't want to face that reality...I go to ITA, race a Miata and finish mid pack where I beat people in lesser equipment and feel good about my accomplishment.

Important distinction. I am not saying that every ITA Miata driver is that way. There are people who find no appeal in Spec Classes, can race with the best of them, like the Miata and want to see how far they can carry one up the grid. That is why I stated it was a generalization.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
I am from the "Rx7 can't compete in "A" and not certain that it needs more weight to go to "B" crowd.


I make this generalization because if I were to make the commitment to fully develop an ITA car and had the skills neccessary to take it to the front...would I build an RX7? Heck no! Because of that you won't find many that are fully developed AND well driven.

Ahhhh...that may be true today, when it is obvious that the car is an old dog, bit just a year or two ago, on this board, when I would bring it up, I would get the "The RX-7 Dominates ITA" line.

You are right that the average RX-7 out there isn't well developed, and some are absolute rats nests, but with the large number of them out there, some have to be well driven and developed especially considering the amount of time the car has been around.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Mike Spencer:
Andy,

..... If the "7" ends up in "B" and I have a shot at running up front there, I will change my class designation in a minute!

Good attitude, Mike. Thats the other side of the coin. I hope others in IT-7 would agree and do the same. It's kind of a "If you build it, they will come" deal.

I hope.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Jake, I need to ask you a question about your desire to have the 1st gen RX-7 reclassed in ITB. What is your gain in asking for the reclass of the 1st gen ? If you have a 1st gen will reclassing the car make you personaly a winner ?

Hvae Fun
David

This comment still has me scratching my head.....then, two nights ago, I met a fellow IT racer, and we were talking. He knew of me, and eventually it became apparent he was under the impression that I was part of the ITAC.

I'm not. Nor the CRB. Haven't in the past either. Would be happy to help if needed.

I just thought I'd mention it in case there were some mistaken beliefs out there.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Scott Nutter]

I think that results can be misleading. At my local track there is both an ITA and an ITB driver that are extremely fast, in that they easily win the class by 1-3 seconds.

At first, when I read the classifications for next year I was depressed thinking that I would be pushed farther down the finishing order. But then I realized that this could potentialy mean more entries and that is a good thing. I want to race with someone, I don't care what class they are running in. If we find ourselves butt to nose five laps in, well then I say 'Let's get it on!'

This is just my 3rd year racing and I can undersand frustration with different strengths of different cars(closing on a car into a corner thru the apex into the exit, to be left on a straight). I view this as my problem, in that I think I can drive fairly fast, I just don't race that well.

For me at least, grouping of classes makes a difference (ITE,T2,ITS,ITA or ITA,SM,ITB,ITC) Now I don't win in either group, but I tend to race with more people in the latter.

For the record, I actually won a race in IT7 at my local track. Now while the field was average size there were only 2 Rx7s. So I had to weigh my car, 1st time ever. Now I am 185-190lbs naked in the morning (not very pretty), I run 13lb steel wheels, Autopower 1.5x.120 bolt in cage, still have undercoating, and the sound deadining stoof in the rear and I weighed in at 2380# no balast, didn't think I needed it!

#85 ITA Rx7
Get'n her out one more time this year this weekend.

[ddewhurst]

Jake, IIRC I responded to your first question of my post. Since I did my original post someone posted some of your lap times from someplace. It's fairly simple to figure out your motive for a reclass. We don't all think the same way. With a side e-mail please inform me of your racing accomplishments from over the years with the ITA RX-7. [email protected]

The Spec Miata nail has been hit on the head. Take the whole Atlantic Spec Miata tour& how many drivers have won a race. Or is that called how many divers have a prepared car that is capable of winning ? To those that think their that GREAT see if ya can keep up with the talent & win a Atlantic Tour Race. Not pi$$ing on anyone. Just stating some of what I beleive to be facts. There is only room at the top step for one person with driving talent & a well prepared car at each race. Same with IT this & that class.

Scott, I like you attitude about racing with somebody/whatever class. No matter how good the driver, all drivers can not win. Some drivers have the driving talent & minimal skills with preparation. Some are the oposite with minimal driving talent & a WELL prepared car. My only priority at each race session is to become faster each session & Have Fun .

Oct 30th & 31st I will be racing at St. Louis Gateway Speedway for the first time ever with my partial converted from Spec-7 to ITA/7 car. I look at this weekend as learn the track & Have Fun. Over the weekend as I get my a$$ handed to me you need to look under the helmet shield & my eyes will say "Who Cares", I'm doing the best I can with "smilling eyes" & a large on my face.

Have Fun
David

[ITSRX7]

David,

I don't get your points to Jake about his motives. He has the same motives that I would have or that 99% of the letters to the ITAC have: "please look at the classification of my car because i think it fits better here or better at xxxx weight. It would make for better racing if you did xxx."

You have issues with that? And if you do, why would you?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[RacerBowie]

"It was once, but since that time, the Integra, the 240 SX, and the Miata have been added to the class. The Miata continues to stump me. The Spec Miatas (which the SM guys are always saying could be so much better if...if...and so on) are usually faster than the ITA Miatas I have seen. Weird."

I know you have clarified your statement, but I will still use your post. No disrespect meant to anyone, I just can't freaking take it anymore. I am sick and tired of the obvious being ignored, and I have poured too much effort into the damn car to just sit and not say anything.

The Miata is not competitive in ITA??????????? Bull$#it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3 of the last 4 years in the SE Div, one of the country's hotbeds for IT, miatas have won ITA for the season. I know, I won 2 of the 3 years. The car is practically unbeatable at a handling track. And I am trying to make it the same at horsepower tracks. I was running out of money, and looking for a new challenge, so I started running at Road Atlanta mostly, as it was 3 things: 1)A horsepower track, 2)where the "national championship" was held, and 3) where I usually got beaten.

Now, 2 years (and 3 completed races, told you I was out of money) later, I am gunning for a top 5 at the ARRC. I finished 7th last year, .015 out of 5th, before being DQ'ed for being over sound (damn old muffler) The car still needs some development, it is on single adjustable konis, doesn't have a good computer, etc. It is not quite optimized, and I can give almost anyone in the country a decent run. Sounds pretty competitive to me.

Here is the rub: If you wanted to race a miata, where would you go? To SM where the costs seem lower and the competition seems better. That is where most of the "Hot Shoes" go. When I built my car ITA was some of the best competition, and there was no SM. Frankly, I like playing with the car too much to go SM anyway.

/rant

Bowie
ITA Miata
2001 & 2002 SARRC ITA Champion

[lateapex911]

Bowie! You're back! No dis meant dude!

I thought about you when I wrote that statement, but I thought that your comments on this site were about how you were fighting an uphill battle. I waasn't aware of your successes, sorry!

But......you are just one guy.

I just haven't seen a lot of dominance in the Miata like I see in the CRX and the Integra. And the 240SX, to a lesser degree due to lesser car counts.

Tell me...at Road Atlanta, what were your times, compared to Daniels and Herr and those guys in SM?
Or at some other track if RA wasn't good to you!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

***I don't get your points to Jake about his motives.***
***You have issues with that? And if you do, why would you?***

Andy, Jake is a big boy I would think & can finn for himself. He started a thread on reclassing the 1st gen RX-7 to ITB....... I questioned his reason/motive....... After someone posted some of his lap times at a track I acknowledged I viewed his track times....... I have now asked Jake to with a side e-mail (ya know PRIVATE e-mail between Jake & me.) provide me with his RX-7 accomplishments....... Pretty simple if you & he read the words & quit trying to make my words something other than what my words are....... When someone sends a letter to the ITAC do you read the words within the letter of do you strictly read between the lines ?

Andy, it's real simple for me. If the car is reclassed to ITB I will race a class other than ITB.

Bowie, good atitude with great comments.
---------------------------------------------

***But......you are just one guy.***
Jake, Bowie is just one guy, Steve Sargis is just one guy, Adam Mally is just one guy, Tom Feller is just one guy, shall I go on ?

Have Fun
David
CenDiv

[Boswoj]

Dick -

The Pro-7 rules packages originated with NASA I believe, but quickly spread as a spec series that encouraged close competitive racing at a bargain price. It's basically completely stock 1st gen 12a drivetrains, with minimally stripped chassis, and upgraded suspensions. The tire is usually spec Toyos in the stock size, on stock 12a wheels. Carbs, manifolds, trannies, brakes, rear ends, etc - all stock. When 1st gens were available in every backyard for 300 bucks this was a fantastically affordable and competitive spec series. One of the reasons that you don't see that many 1st gens on the street anymore is that so many were "harvested" from the street to go racing! It's become a bit of a victim of it's own success really as parts are getting a lot harder to find these days, as I'm sure many of you racers know.

Rick