Attn: First gen guys...

[Speed Raycer]

An interesting side bar. Nadeem Bari and Steven Burkette shared the same (magic) RX7 a couple of times. Jude Rudder, Bryan Cohn and myself up until '03 shared the same car. Bryan Cohn also shared cars with Fredrick Hunter a couple of times. So, driver has a huge impact.
There's a wide range of prep in the IT RX's. But just about everyone is running the same Tokiko's with a couple of Koni setups and most are running Hoosiers this year. Nadeems car is so stock it's sickening. Its even running almost a full interior, 60k stock motor, bolt in cage, power windows etc.

[lateapex911]

David-

Too many lines for me to read between. But let me say this. I, like you I suspect, am always trying to make myself, and my car faster. Unfortunately I can't do it overnight. But I race to compete, as we all do, and I want the chance to compete fairly...

I do not consider myself the defacto standard RX-7... I am merely trying to equate the physical numbers I see with others thoughts, experiences and, results...if the context of those results can be conveyed....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Kirk-

Of course, I am not hanging it all on results...but results that are accompanied by contextual knowledge can be a peice of the puzzle.

For a second, throw out all the cars in the class but two...the CRX and the RX-7. Look at merely the numbers. As I metioned above, in the tale of the tape, the CRX whupps the RX-7. The RX-7 comes in 240 pounds heavier! Huge! And torque numbers are just under 100 to just over 100 for the strong samples. Simply, a car that is 10% heavier, and has inferior power characteristics, is clearly at a huge disadvantage on paper.

So, I am asking for more info...entertaining a concept...trying to flesh out the cold numbers with some real world experience.

Using the ARRCs is obvious because it is common ground for so many. The data that results has real value. But like all data, the context is huge.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[RSTPerformance]

Banzai,

Accept my apologies... I haven't gone off the deep end yet but I do admit I was thinking the other way around! You are correct and like I said before I got stupid... a 100lb weight penalty would be appropriate if not less.

Kirk,


I have always "thought" the RX7 was faster than it actually was. This is also why I put down the information on lap times about it. At NHIS the RX7 has been very successfull compaired to the similar ITB cars. however at LRP they are slower. I think the car would fit well into ITB with miner adjustments. I hope others also give us comparative lap times as well so we can compaire throughout the entire country. I am all for the move and would love more people to race with.

Stephen

[ddewhurst]

IMHJ using a horsepower track such as Road America, Road Atlanta & other horsepower tracks is not a good process method of comparing cars. Using Road Atlanta would be the total opposit end of the stick as using Waterford Hills (MI) for rules compare.

IMHU the CRB uses Mid Ohio as the standard to look at rules for Production cars. If that is the case maybe we should use "Mid Ohio" & "A" similar track from each division (8 tracks) for car compare within IT classes. Or someone from the ITAC get the secret information of which tracks the CRB uses for car compare.

Have Fun
David

[dyoungre]

Back to minimum weight - I know I could reach 2150 lbs (without driver, no fuel). Below that, I'd have to start cutting unnecessary cage bars.

FWIW, I have an '80 chassis with fuel cell, all inside tar removed. Wheels are about 9 lbs each....Headers collect just before axle (so the 'long' style header).

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Ok, I'm thinking of adding the RX-7 to the list of cars to be considered for a move to a lower class by writing an "official" letter....

Jake -

First, let me put my comments/questions in context; You will notice in my "sig" that I own a 1st gen RX-7. That's why I read this thread with a great deal of interest. HOWEVER, I have only just applied for my Novice Permit. No track time, no real experience. Seeing as I will be competing in the South-East, I am in IT7. I don't (or "won't") race against CRXs anyway.

In reading this thread, as well as others in the past, I recall seeing the CRX referred to as an "overdog". Also, besides the "7", it's the only car being discussed in this thread. I realize the answer to this will probably vary depending upon geographical area, but what's the real problem? Is the "7" perceived as being no longer competitive in ITA, or is the CRX just cleaning up on everybody? If the problem is the CRX, why not consider moving it up when/if the IT2 class is created for all of the cars no longer competitive in ITS?

Just wondering..... and please remember these remarks originate in blissful ignorance


------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Mike Spencer:
Jake -

I will be competing in the South-East, I am in IT7. I don't (or "won't") race against CRXs anyway.

Is the "7" perceived as being no longer competitive in ITA, or is the CRX just cleaning up on everybody? If the problem is the CRX, why not consider moving it up when/if the IT2 class is created for all of the cars no longer competitive in ITS?

first of all mike welcome to our obsession. I think you made a good choice. the 1st gen is a great car to learn on. much development work has been done and there are many people to ask advise of.
currently the class is dominated by crx's acura integra's and nissan 200sx's. honda's are definately the most popular and there seem to be some in every part of the country. in the northeast we have acuras an a couple of nissans.
for next year a number of other 2 litre cars will be added to ITA. it looks as though there will be no new class in the near future. the ITAC and the RRB have apperently deceided to try to come up with fair classing with 4 classes. i think this is doable but there will be resitance from folks about having cars that could be fast moving into their class.

IT7 was developed because the rx7's were no longer competitive in ITA. I am curious what class the 7 driver will choose if they can race for a win in ITB. Racing against car that have different strenghts in different areas is cool.
dick

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by dickita15:
...IT7 was developed because the rx7's were no longer competitive in ITA...

Dick -

Thanks for the additional info. Up to this point the only times I've been paying attention to are for IT7. From the sound of it, Jake is probably taking the correct approach. Since the rules for IT7 are the same as ITA (where it is currently classed), the only real impact a move to ITB would have on me would be to force me to replace all 16 of my 7" rims!

Originally posted by dickita15:
...I am curious what class the 7 driver will choose if they can race for a win in ITB. Racing against car that have different strenghts in different areas is cool.
dick

I am probably at least a year away from making that decision intellegently. But, my seat-of-the-pants reaction right now would be "BRING ON THE OTHER CARS!". (As long as I have a snowball's chance.....)

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[ITSRX7]

Mike,

Good stuff. Great to have you here.

One thing to also understand is that this thread is more of a 'global' discussion where as IT7 is only a 'regional' one. New England Region is the 2nd or 3rd largest in the country and we have no IT7. The drivers havn't demanded it yet.

I am predicting an Acura will take the ARRC this year in ITA.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[benracin]

We've got some neat stats so far. If someone ends up with a nice letter I'd like to be copied on that so I too can send a letter. ( I don't trust myself to come up with a convincing letter all alone! ). Seeing how the rx7 has been since I got one 2-3 years ago has made me kind of wonder why I didn't get something like a miata that has a chance of winning something. It would be so awesome knowing that the car I currently have is capable of winning the class it is in on a good day.

I know this may be a poo poo look at things, but in our level of club racing I don't feel a 'chance' at winning takes having a the worlds best driver, brand new hoosiers, a 12k motor that is tuned to perfection on that day, a perfect setup, a min weight car and perfect weather and some other things like good luck and magic fairy dust to boot. That sounds a lot more like pro racing to me. And I'm pretty sure those CRX's and what ever else is winning doesn't have all those items going for them (not trying to insult any drivers here), although I'm sure they have spent more on their engines then a lot of us rotory folk.

I may have been reading things out of context, but I think it's interesting that we compare the times of a fast driver with a fast car that has questionable legality and mention how close he was to winning an ITA race. Shouldn't that kind of situation result in winning not just getting close?

In my area I have seen a really well prep'd rx7. I'm pretty sure the driver is fast, I know his car SCREAMS and can rev to high heaven but I have yet to see him beat the top CRX's and usually, maybe as a result of this cars on the edge tip top shape, breaks before the weekend is over. Tweaking a car past it's boundries and coming home broke or 3rd is though too.

Maybe I'm wishing life was just too easy. But when I look around at cars that are fast in their classes it looks to me like being absolutly perfect with a great car isn't totally required to be close to the top. Our cars used to be like that. Now perfection in every way is what is needed to get an rx7 to maybe the top 3 with a time similar or slower than an ITB car? I guess that's the reason I'm on board for a move of some type.

Sorry, I'm usually not this cynical. It's been a long day at work.

[joeracerx95]

Here's some information from the left coast.
Track records for ITA, ITB and Pro7. Pro7 is close to an IT RX7. A bit less tire and HP, but close.


Willow Springs: (HP track)
ITA ITB Pro7
1:34.7 1:37.6 1:38.2

California Speedway: (HP track)
ITA ITB Pro7
1:57.0 2:03.0 2:01.6

Buttonwillow: (Handling track)
Config 25 CCW
ITA ITB Pro7
2:09.1 2:11.4 2:11.1

Config 27CW
ITA ITB Pro7
1:17.4 1:19.4 1:20.0

So I think a IT RX7 in ITB would be close to ITB, may need a bit of extra weight.

-chuck-

[lateapex911]

Mike- Glad you stopped by...Dickita (I love writing that, thanks Kirk) is right, but I will go even further, ITA is going to be the BEST class going next year!

I keep mentioning the CRX becaue: It is similar in horsepower to the RX-7, so it is more of an apples to apples comparision, AND there a lot of them out there. BUT, it is by no means an "overdog". It was once, but since that time, the Integra, the 240 SX, and the Miata have been added to the class. The Miata continues to stump me. The Spec Miatas (which the SM guys are always saying could be so much better if...if...and so on) are usually faster than the ITA Miatas I have seen. Weird.

But anyway, it's currently a three car (minimum) front pack. But....next year...we add the NEON, the NX2000, and the SE-R. I don't know how many will make it to the grid, but I know most folks haven't bothered developing them for ITS because it was hopeless. They all have the potential to be fast. So ITA could see any of 6 cars at the front next year.

Since the RX gives up 240 pounds to the CRX, and we can't get more than 50 to 100 more out of the RXs, you'd think adding weight to the CRX would be the way to go. But no...it's only one of 6 cars...can't add it to ALL of them!

So, that leaves B as the alternative.

I did some dyno work last night, and the numbers are being corrected as I write....but while the HP looked fine, the Tq was, as expected, non existant.

That is a major factor in looking at how much weight to add to the car, should it be reclassed. More weight will hurt its handling..which will already be hurt by the wheel change. And more weight will have a much greater affect on this car than it would on a normal piston car becuse cars with weak torque suffer far more from increased weight. (Which is why results and times from different type of tracks are actually relatively similar)

We may find that a little goes a long way.

And while results don't tell the entire story, it is intersting to see that even now, (based on the above results, [good stuff guys, keep 'em coming]) as is, it won't be collecting a lot of ITB hardware.....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Mike,

....I am predicting an Acura will take the ARRC this year in ITA.

AB

O<, name names, dude! Is it the same one that set fast race lap last year??

What about Mr Stretch? His driving has never been suspect, and he's only gotten more stout in Speed Challenge!



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
The Miata continues to stump me. The Spec Miatas (which the SM guys are always saying could be so much better if...if...and so on) are usually faster than the ITA Miatas I have seen. Weird.

Here is my generalization/theory: [Wearing 4 layers of Nomex so flame away]

GENERALLY SPEAKING: The guys/gals who race an ITA Miata are racing in ITA rather than SM because the competition is tougher in SM and in SM they have no one to blame but the nut behind the wheel.

EXCEPTION: guys/gals who love the Miata, and find no appeal in a spec series. These people will develop the Miata to the extent they wish and have fun...some will be faster than a SM, some won't be. Despite its' shortcomings a SM package works. You start messing around with things experimenting in IT and you might take 2 steps forward and three steps back.

Back to the 1st gen Rx7--a race weight of 2280 is doable (not if the driver is 240#). I don't race a 1st gen rx7 any longer. IF, I got back into IT racing it would probably be an ITB car (not an RX7 even at its' current ITA weight). Put the Rx7 in B at its' current weight and make em run 6" max tires like everyone else in the class and they won't be an overdog.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
Put the Rx7 in B at its' current weight and make em run 6" max tires like everyone else in the class and they won't be an overdog.

You guys make statements like that, and then a letter like this arrives in my inbox:

Hey Darin:

I'm getting tired of the boys up in the xxxxxxx saying the 1st gen needs to go to ITB. Even though we in the xxxxx have IT7 I still take it to those boys in ITA with my RX7 and believe me, we have some stout ITA cars down here.

We've reveived more than one comment like this (quite frankly, there has been more feedback on this topic than from many of our other requests, like pullies, etc... )

Basically, for every couple of you that says the car can't compete, we hear from one who is insistant that they can...

Who's telling the truth??

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 14, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Basically, for every couple of you that says the car can't compete, we hear from one who is insistant that they can...

Who's telling the truth??

Well.....that's the same ole story, isn't it?

Let me ask you two groups of questions....

1-What do you (and the ITAC) use as your RX-7 IT power and torque at the wheels? And, what will the detractor from down in XXXX admit to having? How does that number match with the "convntional wisdom"?

(For the record, no engine builder I have discussed this with has indicated any legal 12A can make much more than 130 at the wheels with torque numbers just over 100, but who knows...I might not be talking to the right buliders! I can forward the names if you wish)

Once you have numbers, how does it stack up with a CRX? Which "truth" does the data suggest is closer to reality?

2- Who are the "stout" ITA cars? Have they run Road Atlanta? (Since your writer said "down here" I assume that they might be local to RA.) Why don't we see these results at the big events with a sampling of the best of the best, like the ARRCs?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 14, 2004).]

[dyoungre]

Darin,
I don't believe we have 'cherrypicked' the lap time comparisons. The lbs/HP, vehicle weight, brake rotor weight/vehicle weight (all the 'objective') numbers add up to a competetent, but typical ITB car.

If someone is tired of spanking ITA cars, share the times - and share the times of the ITB classes that run at the same track. We truly are in a vacuum by racing in a region. This forum should help give us perspective, but only if those with contrary supporting data (in the form of lap times) share. I would really welcome that perspective!
Has there been any requests that regional results be made available on a single source website? Such access would help understand things of this nature.

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[Banzai240]

Just for the record, here are some RACE lap time comparisons from a number of tracks that vary WIDELY is track-type.

Seattle - Pacific Raceways - is a high-speed, long straight, high hp track.

Portland - PIR - You've all seen it on TV... Total momentum track with fast straights...

Mission, BC - Never been there, but I hear it's a shorter, tighter track

Spokane, Wa - Never been there, but I believe it's an airport track...

Anyhow, here are the results from this season from ICSCC, our local club that uses our SCCA IT rules...

Vancouver BC - Mission Raceway:

ITA
Honda CRX 1:23.715
Honda Civic 1:23.873
Honda CRX 1:24.695
Honda CRX 1:26.476
Mazda MX5 1:27.297
Mazda RX7 1:28.700


Portland - PIR

ITA
Honda CRX 1:25.766
Honda Civic 1:25.626
Acura Integra 1:25.447
Mazda Miata 1:25.926
Acura Integra 1:25.875
Honda CRX 1:26.304
Mazda Miata 1:25.879
Toyota Corolla 1:26.686
Mazda RX7 1:27.863
Mazda RX7 1:27.857
Toyota Celica 1:28.470
Mazda RX7 1:28.844


Seattle – Pacific Raceways

ITA
Honda Civic 1:43.272
Honda CRX 1:43.488
Nissan 240SX 1:42.862
Mazda Miata 1:44.851
Mazda Miata 1:44.595
Honda CRX 1:47.439
Mazda RX-7 1:46.801
Acura Integra 1:46.549
Mazda RX-7 1:48.093
Mazda RX-7 1:48.824
Mazda RX-7 1:48.772
Mazda Miata 1:51.882
Mazda Miata 1:43.410


Portland – PIR

ITA
Honda CRX 1:35.210
Mazda Miata 1:34.633
Honda CRX 1:34.329
Acura Integra 1:34.744
Toyota Corolla 1:36.415
Nissan 240SX 1:36.228
Mazda RX7 1:37.912
Mazda RX7 1:38.412
Honda CRX 1:39.339
Toyota Celica 1:39.512
Mazda RX7 1:39.620
Mazda RX7 1:41.126


Vancouver, BC - Mission Raceway

ITA
Honda CRX 1:25.136
Honda CRX 1:26.845
Honda CRX 1:26.542
Honda CRX si 1:29.566
Mazda RX7 1:31.193
Mazda MX5 1:31.916
Mazda RX7 1:32.790


Spokane Washington

ITA
Honda Civic. 01:51.217
Honda CRX 01:52.409
Honda CRX 01:52.841
Mazda MX5 01:53.621
Acura Integra 01:54.220
Nissan 240SX 01:54.050
Mazda RX7 01:55.737
Mazda Miata 01:56.948
Mazda RX7 01:56.958
Mazda Miata 01:57.262
Mazda RX7 01:57.289
Mazda RX7 01:57.397
Mazda Miata 02:00.044
Mazda Miata 01:53.469


Seattle Wa – Pacific Raceways

ITA
Honda Civic 1:42.763
Honda Civic 1:43.250
Honda CRX 1:43.272
Mazda Miata 1:44.208
Nissan 240SX 1:44.158
Mazda MX5 1:44.362
Mazda Miata 1:45.143
Mazda RX-7 1:48.809
Mazda RX-7 1:48.237
Mazda RX-7 1:49.063
Mazda Miata 1:49.109
Toyota Corolla 1:47.195
Mazda RX-7 1:49.084
Mazda RX-7 1:46.430

I find it difficult to argue, based both on pure specifications, mechanical properties, AND results from across the country, that the RX-7 is simply outclassed in ITA competition.

For comparison, here are the PRO7 times from the same events.

Vancouver BC - Mission Raceway:

Pro7
Mazda RX7 1:27.299
Mazda RX7 1:28.583
Mazda RX7 1:29.752
Mazda RX7 1:30.060


Portland - PIR

PRO7
Mazda RX7 1:28.111
Mazda RX7 1:29.440
Mazda RX7 1:29.054
Mazda RX7 1:28.909
Mazda RX7 1:30.266
Mazda RX7 1:29.610
Mazda RX7 1:27.796


Seattle – Pacific Raceways

PRO-7
Mazda RX-7 1:46.107
Mazda RX-7 1:47.511
Mazda RX-7 1:48.047
Mazda RX-7 1:48.502
Mazda RX-7 1:48.436
Mazda RX-7 1:49.679
Mazda RX-7 1:47.275
Mazda RX-7 1:49.977


Portland – PIR

PRO7
Mazda RX7 1:47.679
Mazda RX7 1:48.979
Mazda RX7 1:52.308
Mazda RX7 1:48.674
Mazda RX7 1:56.497
Mazda RX7 1:55.035


Vancouver, BC - Mission Raceway

Pro7
Mazda RX7 1:26.445
Mazda RX7 1:27.707
Mazda RX7 1:30.829


Spokane Washington

PRO7
Mazda RX7 01:54.410
Mazda RX7 01:54.923
Mazda RX7 01:55.938
Mazda RX7 01:57.549
Mazda RX7 01:56.177


Seattle Wa – Pacific Raceways

PRO7
Mazda RX-7 1:46.945
Mazda RX-7 1:45.996
Mazda RX-7 1:47.311
Mazda RX-7 1:48.334

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 14, 2004).]

[ddewhurst]

Are the motor builders who use numbers like 130 hp/100 #ft. at the rear wheels National level builders. Share the builder names.

Have Fun
David