Attn: First gen guys...

[cpa7man]

I tend to run about 5 seconds a lap slower than the fastest CRX and about 2-3 seconds per lap slower than the fastest RX-7's. I run on 5.5" stock rims with Victoracers. I am running the fastest lap times anyone has ran in this car, but I consider myself a novice.

I'm all for a change in class to B. Make us go back to stock rim size as a penalty. Lots of those wheels available cheap. Ok don't flame me.

------------------
Paul Pineider
ITA 05 (Soudiv)

WTB - Used transponder.

[RSTPerformance]

I have been the fastest ITB car at LRP since the 90's with a 104.2 I only got 1 the rest are 104.5's Record is from Rick pocock with a mid 1:03 but 3's haven't been touched in a long long time, and I think only by Carlson, Curran and Pocock

I have been the fastest ITB car ever on the 2 chicane combo at NHIS with a 1:23.1 only once, the rest are mid 1:23's and in the race Derek lugar has the lap record at a 1:24.0

The only people to get in the 18's with the 1 combination chicane I beleive is Carlson, and McMahon. Myself and some others have gotton to a 19.0 but no 18's

A normal top 3 finish needed times in ITB:
LRP Low 1:05's
NHIS 2 chicane's Low 1:25's
NHIS 1 Chicane Mid 1:19's
These are the times that the RX's or any other cars should be doing or they will be overdogs in ITB.

Stephen

PS: the ITB time of a 1:14 is correct however he cut through the wall from 3 to 10. The time was never corrected since it was race results not qualifying.

[RSTPerformance]

I forgot to mention.... I would like to see them added to ITB. Car counts would increase as many more people would bring them back! I do think that jsut giving them a 300lb penalty will be fine and keep them to the same rules on wheels... 15" by 6 inches. I don't think the ITAC should be doing adjustments by car like in production. Leave it to weight and keep it simple. also keep the car classified in ITA with the current weight for those that want to stay in ITA. Roll cages definetly would have to be upgraded... no reason to be chincy on safety you can stay in ITA or add the weight and the new cage and run in ITB.

Stephen

PS using weight to allow cars to be classified in several classes would be a great idea to increase car counts as well since you can just change the amount of ballast. I only added this since this is your overall goal... to increase car counts...not to create a winning car.... right?

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I do think that jsut giving them a 300lb penalty will be fine and keep them to the same rules on wheels...

300lbs!??? 2680lbs?? That seems a little steep, don't you think? I think 2550lbs to 2600lbs at the most...

What is the LIGHTEST you guys think and RX could be made to weigh??? LEGALLY, ready to race, NO gas or driver, Prepped to the letter of the rules and as an all-out effort??



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[lateapex911]

Darin-

Glad you stopped by...I think I could get my car down to around 2100, maybe a pound lower if I get a carbon fibre exhaust....

Steven? You must be working too hard...
Think about this for a second...first, nobody is going to move to B just to get whipped by a new bunch of cars!

Second, lets define "overdog" ok? An overdog is a car that other cars in the class can't touch...they're like a second out in front.
So the times you mentioned.....4s at LRP and 18s at NHIS....I know a lot of RX-7s that would be THRILLED to turn those times. I think my best at LRP is mid 4s and NHIS is 18s. Add those times to the ARRC times, and tell me why you think 300lbs is appropriate, when the actual results show the car is very close to the front as is.

As long as you're here Steven, your car weighs 2480, right? and has how much torque? What are the 2.2l 5 cylinders capable of putting down in race trim? (I know you've never had a proper race engine...take a guess)

Show me how 300 pounds works empirically.

But....thanks for at least coming up with a number!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[benracin]

My engine was a little off this weekend making me 1 second slower then the other RX7. Due to that I was behind almost every SM, ITA, ITB and even ITC car in the race. Sure it's my second real year, yes my car needs some work done to it, but even when my car is running good all of my battles on track have been with ITB cars. Had a heck of a time with an ITC car at Road America. Sorry I don't have any real numbers, but with me in my car I weight the limit, so you can count me in for going to ITB little change or none.

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by lateapex911:

Steven? You must be working too hard...
Think about this for a second...first, nobody is going to move to B just to get whipped by a new bunch of cars!

Second, lets define "overdog" ok? An overdog is a car that other cars in the class can't touch...they're like a second out in front.
So the times you mentioned.....4s at LRP and 18s at NHIS....I know a lot of RX-7s that would be THRILLED to turn those times. I think my best at LRP is mid 4s and NHIS is 18s. Add those times to the ARRC times, and tell me why you think 300lbs is appropriate, when the actual results show the car is very close to the front as is.

As long as you're here Steven, your car weighs 2480, right? and has how much torque? What are the 2.2l 5 cylinders capable of putting down in race trim? (I know you've never had a proper race engine...take a guess)

Show me how 300 pounds works empirically.

But....thanks for at least coming up with a number!

I weigh my car before almost every session to make sure that I don't come in underweight at the end of a sesion. I have found that 50lbs makes no difference in lap times. get up to 100lbs and your talking less than 1/2 a second. I figured 300 was a good number becaseu this will probably slow you down 1 to 1.5 seconds from my experiences. I was under the understanding that at LRP RX7's where easily in the 3's and at NHIS they where into the low 18's if not 17's at one point. that is how I derived my pounds. that still puts them in the top mixe of cars.

I agree that an overdog would be faster but an overdog would be a car that gets .5 seconds faster than the current times. IE: a car that imediatly hit's 104.0 at LRP or a 1:18.5 at NHIS.

My car I would suspect maxed out would be making around 130HP. Stock it makes 105HP with a header it makes 115HP No .40 over pistons are available so to have them made would be illegal. port matching is already pretty good. so basically all you can do is get that .5 in compresion and that is it other than balancing it. As far as a proper race engine you are correct I have never had a profesional one built with new parts. I do have an increase of .46 in compresion but that is it everything is stock and certainly not blueprinted and balanced. We built it in my garage with craftsman tools 2 years ago

Stephen

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
No .40 over pistons are available so to have them made would be illegal.

Where did you get this idea?? What do you read in the rules that would make them "illegal"??

Also, the weight would NOT have as much effect on your car... The engine is an entirely different matter. In other words, your 5-cyl. can make some torque...

I suspect the RX-7 would be more greatly affected by a weight increase because it completely lacks torque to overcome the weight...

I still need as many of you as possible to chime in on the weight issue... Jake says he thinks he can get his legally down to 2100lbs less driver... Anyone else willing to provide any real data? Feel free to contact me in private if you'd be more comfortable.

Banzai240 "AT" Yahoo "Dot" com



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I was under the understanding that at LRP RX7's where easily in the 3's and at NHIS they where into the low 18's if not 17's at one point. that is how I derived my pounds. that still puts them in the top mixe of cars.

I agree that an overdog would be faster but an overdog would be a car that gets .5 seconds faster than the current times. IE: a car that imediatly hit's 104.0 at LRP or a 1:18.5 at NHIS.

Stephen

OK OK before I get bashed I want to change my thoughts!! I looked up the times from every race over the past years to 2001. IT looks like Ray and Jake both have turned consistant 1:18.2's both of them have several laps with these times and I beleive Ray has the fastest time at a 1:18.0 At LRP Ray has the fastest time I could find at a 1:05.0 and both Jake and Ray turned several laps in the 1:05.2 range. I think that back when Dan had his RX-7 running both him and Ray where faster but It's really not woth it for me to go digging up that information prior to 2001.

With this data I would say that 100lbs would be sufficient to keep a level playing field...... oh wait a second our comp board went crazy with wheel sizes so now someone smart will have to consider the larger wheel size as well. that's probably equivilent to another 100+ lbs since they will be running a wider wheel than before with much larger tires available to them.

Stephen

[tdw6974]

If We are talking 1st generation. I just don't see how to change or offset the fact the Top cars are all Fuel injected electronic management systems(That can be programmed) I always look to se how we run against the carb vrs injection cars. How would have a class within a class ITA-FI & ITA-C ? Sure would eliminate changing wheels, tires,ballasting etc etc. TW

------------------
Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Where did you get this idea?? What do you read in the rules that would make them "illegal"??

Actually lets go the other way.... where does it say you can put in .40 over pistons. If it doesn't say you can than you cannot. It says only stock replacement, not go and make your own that look like stock but are bigger. My car and I'm sure several others do not have a .40 stock replacement part number therefor it is not allowed. I do not have the GCR handy so if you do please feel free to quote the paragraph here from the GCR. We also may wnat to have this on another thread so we don't hijack Jakes.

Stephen

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 12, 2004).]

[Knestis]

I've got to chime in here and suggest that it's a little worrisome that we are talking about moving a car from one class to another and using onesy-twosy, fast-lap data from disparate events to support positions...

There is NO evidence that the biggest variables - driver skill and budget - have been managed in this comparison. In fact, it hasn't even been demonstrated that the cars involved were legal.

It's particularly disturbing any time someone trots out ARRC results like they are somehow representative of the bigger picture. This gets WAY too close the practice of using RubOffs results as the basis for competition adjustments in Prod or GT classes, for my tastes.

If there's a case to be made for the RX7 going to B, make it based on the physical attributes of the car.

K

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
...since they will be running a wider wheel than before with much larger tires available to them.

Ummm... Stephen, you seem to be going off the deep end here...

Take a DEEEEPPPP breath.... There....

Now, I don't know where you get this idea, but the new wheel allowances are for DIAMETER ONLY...

Widths would be 6", just like the rest of the ITB/C cars...

The RX would be LOSING an inch of wheel width...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
If there's a case to be made for the RX7 going to B, make it based on the physical attributes of the car.

K

I could NOT AGREE MORE!

The most I've ever heard of a legal RX-7 making from a flywheel hp standpoint was 136hp...

136hp and NO torque to speak of, tells me that the car WILL respond to weight adjustments, either + or -...

The way I see it, it would be a really nice ITB car with a appropriate amount of weight added, and shouldn't "dominate" anything.

Unless, of course, someone shows up in one that is better preparred and more skillfully driven than the other ITB frontrunners on that given day...

The ONLY hitch in that plan is the cage issue, i.e.: someone having used 1.5" x .095" tubing, but this may be something that can be worked around, or that otherwise might not BE an issue, if the BoD and CRB are able to finally work together to get the cage rules standardized, which would likely result in the Prod/GT tubing sizes being standardized for all weld-in "GT" style cages...

Of course, that may be just wishful thinking on my part, but I do think it needs to be done and I'm not alone in that thinking.

Maybe that's something that many of you could write in about and get the CRB to consider it harder...???



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[ddewhurst]

***Jake, I need to ask you a question about your desire to have the 1st gen RX-7 reclassed in ITB.***

***What is your gain in asking for the reclass of the 1st gen ?***

***If you have a 1st gen will reclassing the car make you personaly a winner ?***

Jake, I think my questions are real simple for you to answer. But now that there is more posted about your times don't bother with anserws I think I can figure out the ansewers myself. I will figure out the answers using your lap times given & the hypothesis that each racer has his own agenda.

On the subject of 1st gen RX-7 legal race car weight I am very skeptical that a 1st gen can be brought down to 2100 POUNDS in IT trim without driver. My 1st gen RX-7 ITA/7 (S model) at this time weighs 2429# with 3 gallons of gas & a 200# driver. So lets call the car weight 2211#. From that 2211# I need to remove the tar which is inside the car, the undercoating, OEM fuel tank or fuel cell weight ? & ? to get to 2100# Come on weight wizzards please tell me how to get my car to 2100 pounds.

Someone made a suggestion adding the 13B to the spec line. How many HP is that with a carb & how many HP with FI ? If this is reality I like it better using the 13B & added weight if required than going to B.

Have Fun
David

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I've got to chime in here and suggest that it's a little worrisome that we are talking about moving a car from one class to another and using onesy-twosy, fast-lap data from disparate events to support positions...

If there's a case to be made for the RX7 going to B, make it based on the physical attributes of the car.
K

well kirk when this thread started we were talking about the atributes of the car and david seemed to feel the car was competitive in other parts of the country. our request to learn when and what the local condition are in those places has gone unanswered. the rx7 has lower power to weight, very low torque and a live axel.
my memory from an old thread was that few ITA rx7's could lose more than 30 pounds, so lower weight to help it in ITA does not seem probable.

I run a 225/45/13 tire on a 7" wheel. I do not think they would work well on a 6" wheel. I would probably run the 205 in B. some fast guys run the 205 now so i don't think it will be a lot slower.
dick patullo
NER ITA Rx7

[ddewhurst]

Here ye, here ye David got off his & looked up a couple times for the CRX vrs the RX-7 or vise versa.

Mid Ohio (2 ? mile 15 turn)

CRX C. Botha Q time 1:47.4 R time 1:47.2

RX-7 T. Duncan Q time 1:48.1 R time 1:47.8


Blackhawk Farm (2 ? mile 10 turn)(don't have Q times)

CRXSI M. Seaman R time 1:24.6

Honda T. Burns R time 1:24.4

RX-7 T. Liakapoulos R time 1:24.9

RX-7 M. Piecko R time 1:24.5

Granted Mid Ohio & or Blackhawk Farm are not high hp tracks like Atlanta but then IMHU the CRB does not use a high hp track when they look at Production car differences to compare.

Have Fun
David



[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited October 12, 2004).]

[RacinRich]

Gotta add my 2 cents...comparing the CRX with the 1st gen. RX7 isn't fair. How about comparing the ITA CRX wtih the SECOND gen RX7.

Waterford 1st Place CRX - 1.16.867
Waterford 1st Place ITS RX7 - 1.16.602

MidOhio 1st Place CRX - 1.44.581
MidOhio 1st Place ITS RX7 - 1.46.194

Grattan 1st Place CRX - 1.31.651
Grattan 1st Place ITS RX7 - 1.32.092

Dave D - A specific ITA 1st gen RX7 had questionable legality and doesn't provide a correct CRX comparison baseline.

[ddewhurst]

Rich, you guys in CenDiv area 4 race with the specific ITA 1st gen RX7 that had questionable legality & at the same time there is this Mazda racer from the big ol state of Texas who used to get accused of the big "C" on a regular basis when he was racing Spec-7. Guess what when he went National racing maybe 3 years ago he is just as fast at the national level with his 1st gen RX-7 in E Production.

See ya sometime next year at Mid Ohio with the car now converted to ITA/7.

Have Fun
David

[Speed Raycer]

Not sure if this contributes anything (let me know if it doesn't and I'll edit it out).
All Races at Gateway International

March 26 2004 Group 3
ITB BRIAN A. GLASSBURNER DODGE OMI 1:13.984
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:14.220
ITB SAM SMITH BMW 2002 1:15.986
ITB PATRICK FINDLEY VW GOLF GTI 1:16.699
ITB SCOTT E. WILLIAMS VW GOLF 1:19.362

March 26 2004 Group 5
IT7 JAMES STEVENS MAZDA RX7 1:14.871
IT7 NADEEM BARI MAZDA RX7 1:15.898
IT7 JIM EUBANKS MAZDA RX7 1:17.674
IT7 TODD GIBBS MAZDA RX7 1:19.970
IT7 SCOTT RHEA MAZDA RX7 1:21.633
IT7 SCOTT GIBBS MAZDA RX7 1:22.112
IT7 SHEILA BURKETT MAZDA RX7 1:23.072

Race # 6- MAY 1 2004
ITB MICHAEL D. GLASSBURNER DODGE OMNI 1:14.304
ITB PATRICK FINDLEY VW GOLF GTI 1:17.540
ITB TRISTAN POPLIN VW GTI 1:17.037
IT7 BARRY BETZ MAZDA RX7 1:17.484
ITB PAUL HEUER VW GTI 1:18.056
IT7 CONNIE LAMB MAZDA RX7 1:19.978
IT7 SHEILA BURKETT MAZDA RX7 1:19.679

MAY 2 2004
ITB MICHAEL D. GLASSBURNER DODGE OMNI **1:13.709
IT7 NADEEM BARI MAZDA RX7 1:16.147
ITB PATRICK FINDLEY VW GOLF GTI 1:16.537
IT7 MARK JEFFERY MAZDA RX7 1:16.869
ITB PAUL HEUER VW GTI 1:16.807
ITB TRISTAN POPLIN VW GTI 1:16.503
IT7 BARRY BETZ MAZDA RX7 1:18.234
IT7 SHEILA BURKETT MAZDA RX7 1:19.395
IT7 CONNIE LAMB MAZDA RX7 1:19.765

Race # 3- July 31 2004
IT7 NADEEM BARI MAZDA RX7 1:15.501
IT7 JAMES STEVENS MAZDA RX7 1:16.402
IT7 BRYAN COHN MAZDA RX7 1:17.249
IT7 MARK JEFFERY MAZDA RX7 1:20.547
IT7 JIM EUBANKS MAZDA RX7 1:21.191

Race # 4- July 31 2004
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:15.518
ITB PATRICK FINDLEY VW GOLF GTI 1:16.733
ITB BOBBY CALDWELL BMW 320I 1:19.206
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:18.863
ITB SCOTT E. WILLIAMS VW GOLF 1:18.514

Race # 6- October 26 2002
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:14.897
ITA MICHAEL WIGGINS MAZDA RX7 1:14.987
ITB H. DONALDSON VW GOLF 1:15.971
ITB RUSSELL NEELY ALFA ROMEO 1:17.219
ITB ANDY DOYLE TRIUMPH TR7 1:17.847
ITA BRYAN COHN MAZDA RX7 1:18.039
ITB MICHAEL BAUMET VW GOLF GTI 1:17.096
ITB NICO PRELOGAR VW SCIROCCO 1:19.022
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:18.964
ITA JUDE RUDDER MAZDA RX7 1:19.305
ITB PATRICK FINDLEY VW GTI 1:19.519
ITA SCOTT JEFFERS MAZDA RX7 1:19.353
ITB SCOTT E. WILLIAMS VW GOLF 1:20.885
ITB PAUL HEUER VW GTI 1:20.118
ITA GENE HARBOR MAZDA RX7 1:22.413
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:24.694
ITA CHRIS WIGGINS MAZDA RX7 1:17.368

Race # 6- October 27 2002
ITA MICHAEL WIGGINS MAZDA RX7 1:14.894
ITB ALAN RUSSELL VW GOLF 1:15.667
ITA BRYAN COHN MAZDA RX7 1:15.760
ITB MICHAEL BAUMET VW GOLF GTI 1:15.759
ITA CHRIS WIGGINS MAZDA RX7 1:15.923
ITB H. DONALDSON VW GOLF 1:15.750
ITA SCOTT JEFFERS MAZDA RX7 1:16.399
ITB RUSSELL NEELY ALFA ROMEO 1:16.256
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VWAGEN GTI 1:17.763
ITB NICO PRELOGAR VW SCIROCCO 1:18.061
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:18.166
ITB SCOTT E. WILLIAMS VW GOLF 1:17.826
ITA GENE HARBOUR MAZDA RX7 1:21.061
ITB PAUL HEUER VW GTI 1:17.042
ITA SCOTT RHEA MAZDA RX7 1:17.453
ITB PATRICK FINDLEY VW GTI 1:21.747

Race # 6- AUGUST 4 2002
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:14.588
ITB DOUG WARREN VW GTI 1:18.782
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VWGTI 1:19.859
ITA SCOTT RHEA MAZDA RX7 1:19.945
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:19.713

Race # 6- AUGUST 3 2002
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:15.822
ITB DOUG WARREN VW GTI 1:18.537
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:20.093
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:19.824
ITA SCOTT RHEA MAZDA RX7 1:19.861

Race # 4 MARCH 31 2003
ITA SCOTT PETERSON MAZDA RX7 1:15.971
ITA JIM EUBANKS MAZDA RX7 1:19.408
ITA NADEEM BARI MAZDA RX7 1:19.303
ITA CHRIS WIGGINS MAZDA RX7 1:15.152
ITA STEVEN L. RHEA MAZDA RX7 1:22.929
ITA MARK JEFFERY MAZDA RX7 1:21.390
ITA FRED W. HUNTER MAZDA RX7 1:24.658

Race # 6MAY 3 2003
ITB MICHAEL D. GLASSBURNER DODGE OMNI 1:14.904
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:14.667
ITB DOUG WARREN VW GTI 1:18.078
ITB TONY TORRES VW GTI 1:17.855
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:18.927
ITA NADEEM BARI MAZDA RX7 1:18.087
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:19.623
ITA JUDE RUDDER MAZDA RX7 1:21.050
ITA JIM EUBANKS MAZDA RX7 1:20.827
ITA MARK JEFFERY MAZDA RX7 1:21.740
ITA SCOTT JEFFERS MAZDA RX7 1:17.816

Race # 6-MAY 4 2003
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:16.555
ITA BRYAN COHN MAZDA RX7 1:16.833
ITB MICHAEL D. GLASSBURNER DODGE OMNI 1:16.723
ITB DOUG WARREN VW GTI 1:17.863
ITB TONY TORRES VW GTI 1:18.368
ITA STEVEN BURKETT MAZDA RX7 1:15.404
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:19.802
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:20.216
ITA MARK JEFFERY MAZDA RX7 1:21.973
ITA JIM EUBANKS MAZDA RX7 1:22.072
ITA SCOTT JEFFERS MAZDA RX7 1:18.549

Race # 6- July 26 2003
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:16.031
ITB PAUL HEUER VW GTI 1:16.911
ITA NADEEM BARI MAZDA RX7 1:16.894
ITA MARK JEFFERY MAZDA RX7 1:17.101
ITA JUDE RUDDER MAZDA RX7 1:18.859
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:19.379
ITA FRED HUNTER MAZDA RX7 1:22.923
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:20.099

Race # 6-July 27 2003
ITB CHRIS ALBIN VW GOLF 1:15.644
ITB PAUL HEUER VW GTI 1:17.114
ITA MARK JEFFERY MAZDA RX7 1:18.730
ITB BILL BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:19.452
ITB ROBERT BRIGGEN VW GTI 1:19.897
ITA SCOTT RHEA MAZDA RX7 1:19.945
ITA FRED W. HUNTER MAZDA RX7 1:26.102
ITB C. SHARTZER VW RABBIT GTI 1:19.513
------------------
Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

Izzy's Custom Cages

[This message has been edited by Speed Raycer (edited October 12, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Speed Raycer (edited October 12, 2004).]