Attn: First gen guys...

[Hotshoe]

Andy:

....I am going to attempt to give you my perspective, BUT, I know this will only give you more incentive to disprove my reasons.

....1. We spend more time replacing brake rotors than most other classes. Why? Because we are trying to do more than what they are designed for.

So why should we want to add weight?

....2. Most of us have spent close to two thousand dollars on wheels that will be of no use to anyone if we move to ITB.

So why would we want 6" wheels?

....3. We have spent countless hours trying to get our cars competitive but are being judged by the majority that do not.

I always hear them complaining while I'm working on my car.

....4. A car with a carburetor cannot compete against a "no holds barred" ECU car without help no matter where you put it.

....5. We will be a hard fit wherever we go. A rotary engine has a personality that does not mix well with piston engines. (No Torque)

So we always get treated different.

....Review. I have been racing an RX7 for eleven years. I enjoy racing with the ITS/ITA cars. I spend more money, and work on my brakes more than other cars in other classes do. And I know for a fact that more weight with narrower wheels will only compound that problem.

.....Jake: I know my car is legal. If you are unsure, come to Savannah next weekend. And I'll let you (and anybody else that wants to) take a look. My car has been teched and checked so many times that I have lost count.

.....Andy: Since you will not bring your ITS car down to CMP I guess you will have to take my word for it. What gets me is, you do not have a first gen RX7 so where do YOU get your opinion? I hope you do go ITA with your Miata. Then you will see just how much disparity there is. Of course you may have already seen it in your ITS car. HUH

.....I have always tried to enjoy my racing as a hobby. The personal satisfaction of having built my own car and driving it at the limit gives me great pleasure. To me that is what SCCA CLUB RACING is all about. Trying to group cars together in CLASSES I know is an insurmountable task, but, no matter how hard you try you will not get them all competitive

.....I have tried and tried to get my car as fast as it can be. Now you want me (along with several others) to slow my car down. If the other people that are for the change had half as much time invested as I do they wouldn't want to make the move either.

..Okay Andy, There you go chop away, But remember, At least I'm not afraid to state my HONEST opinion.

....Rick Thompson # 99


[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited November 10, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Rick,

I might be speaking out of turn here, but here it goes anyway.

IF the 1st gen Rx7 were to be moved to B on 6" wheels with another 100-200# added AND your region kept IT7 with its' current rules and run group, would you then support the move?

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:

....4. A car with a carburetor cannot compete against a "no holds barred" ECU car without help no matter where you put it.

That's simply NOT true... The 240Z has carbs, and it can compete with all but the BMW in ITS if properely prepared... This is a completely unqualified statement. It's your opinion, and that's fine, but you'd be hard pressed to find evidence to back this up.

Some of the ECU cars may be over classified, and perhaps that is where you get your opinion, but if properely classified, there is nothing keeping a carb'd car from competing with an ECU car...


As for moving the car to B and your opinion on that, you bring up some very valid points... Points that are all being considered at length...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Andy:

....1. We spend more time replacing brake rotors than most other classes. Why? Because we are trying to do more than what they are designed for.

So why should we want to add weight?

....2. Most of us have spent close to two thousand dollars on wheels that will be of no use to anyone if we move to ITB.

So why would we want 6" wheels?

....3. We have spent countless hours trying to get our cars competitive but are being judged by the majority that do not.

I always hear them complaining while I'm working on my car.

....4. A car with a carburetor cannot compete against a "no holds barred" ECU car without help no matter where you put it.

....5. We will be a hard fit wherever we go. A rotary engine has a personality that does not mix well with piston engines. (No Torque)

So we always get treated different.

....Review. I have been racing an RX7 for eleven years. I enjoy racing with the ITS/ITA cars. I spend more money, and work on my brakes more than other cars in other classes do. And I know for a fact that more weight with narrower wheels will only compound that problem.

.....Jake: I know my car is legal. If you are unsure, come to Savannah next weekend. And I'll let you (and anybody else that wants to) take a look. My car has been teched and checked so many times that I have lost count.

.....Andy: Since you will not bring your ITS car down to CMP I guess you will have to take my word for it. What gets me is, you do not have a first gen RX7 so where do YOU get your opinion? I hope you do go ITA with your Miata. Then you will see just how much disparity there is. Of course you may have already seen it in your ITS car. HUH


.....I have tried and tried to get my car as fast as it can be. Now you want me (along with several others) to slow my car down. If the other people that are for the change had half as much time invested as I do they wouldn't want to make the move either.
....Rick Thompson # 99

Rick- I agree with you on several points.

First, thanks for the invite to Savanna...but after the long tow to Atlanta, I'm hanging around here for a weekend and doing yardwork!

I hope you didn't think I was accusing you of running an illegal car in my comments...I was merely recanting the thread for Mr. Dewherst, and mentioning the lack of a data point. I have no reason to make a judgement of your legality.

OK, I agree with your points #1 and #2. It would suck to have to replace the wheel inventory and to increase the brake replacement expenses. Of course, at the prices of rotors and pads, even doubling that part of the budget is a drop in the overall budget.

I take issue with your #3 statement...you really don't know that the judgement is ignoring your standard, nor have you any idea of the work or expense invested by others....just because others haven't found the magic formula doesn't mean they haven't tried as hard (or harder). Regardless, the proper decision should be based on the cars that stretch the potential, and I think that you guys are the "bogey".

I'll lump #4 and #5 together. I find your comment regarding ECUs interesting, as the discussion is about moving the car to ITB where the relative amount of ECU cars is much LESS than ITA! yes the rotary is a different fish, but it will be as different in ITB, just as it is in ITA, where you enjoy your racing.

Am I correct in saying that your reasons for not wanting the move are:

1-added expense, both in wheels and extra brake wear
2-you enjoy the run group you are currently in, and...
3-that the rotary won't mix well with piston engined and ECU'ed cars?



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Brad]

Moving the Rx7 down to ITB or giving it comp adjustments to make it a podium placer in ITA both have it's merits and flaws. But I for one would rather have my car made faster than slower. Here's some quick ideas that would not take much $$ or time to implement:

I. Port match the intake manifold like the piston cars can do.

II. Mechanical Secondaries. All it takes is saftey wire and a drill.

III. Enlarge all 4 venturi's by 2mm each max

IV. Drop 50 lbs

--------------------------------------

Alternatively as Andy B said:

"The 1st gen 13B car is an FI car. It makes 135 stock HP. It is an EXCELLENT candidate for ITA IMHO. Putting all the 1st gen cars on the same spec line is a whole 'nother can of worms that would create an update/backdate nightmare."

That says a lot. The GSL-SE was never a contender in ITS but now that EFI and better braking cars are in ITA, it would make sense to class it in ITA. Allowing a S, GS, or GSL car to pick and choose to use the 13B or EFI or brakes or 14" wheels would be another story. And GSL-SE's are getting scarce.

But could a package be put together, say allow the 13b with 12a carb, manifold, and 12a -> 13b adaptor for the intake manifold?

-----------------------------------

Or alternatively allow 2bbl Weber DCOE/Dellorto DHLA manifolds and carbs and just try to increase 12a HP and see how it goes? Different manifold and velocity stack combinations can help torque too. Packages can be bought for $350-550 used depending on options and spares. I have LOTS of experience with the 48 dellorto DHLA with Racing Beat and Lake Cities intake manifolds. On stock ports, street ports, and full J-Bridgeport.

Everyone I've talked to say the best set of carbs can't compete with EFI so..............

Too radical?

------------------
--Brad--

[lateapex911]

Brad, I like the ideaas, but I can see two issues:

1- The Purpose, Philosophy and Intent statement that IT lives with places us in a position of rather tight inflexibility when it comes to individual car modifications. In other words, the CRB just won't buy any alternative carb, porting or carb secondary changes. The comment will be "if you want to do that, go to Prod".

One item you mentioned though, port matching has a precedence as it IS allowed, as you pointed out, for the rest of the non-rotary world. As such it runs counter to the IT PP&I. It rightfully could be looked at.....but......how much of a difference would it really make??

2- Using the recent ARRC event as an example, the best IT-7s in the country were almost 5 seconds off the ITA pace. As you mention you have a lot of experience with alternative carbs/intakes. etc, what kind of power is available ...5 seconds worth? Remember, we still have a clunky old live axle, and the CRXs brake with 240 pounds less weight...

Trust me...if someone could find a way to make the cars significantly faster AND meet the Clubs requrements (PP&I), he would have 110% of my attention...

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Tak]

Alternate carburators are not "against the spirit" of IT. The Webber 32/36 DGV has been an alternate carburator (for carb'd and FI cars) for well over 10 years. Problem is, it will not flow enough for an ITA or ITS car. Perhaps adding an alternate carburator suitable for ITA or ITS is appropriate--it could save a lot of money compared to fully customized FI "in the stock housing". I would nominate a single Webber 48 DCOE or dual 38 DCOE's. Maybe different venturies for A and S? That would go a long way to make a GSL-SE a contender in ITA and solve availability issues. I don't think it would do much for the 12A though...the Nikki already flows well.

[Quickshoe]

Hotshoe wrote:

....4. A car with a carburetor cannot compete against an (snip) ECU car without help

Originally posted by Banzai240:
...but if properely classified, there is nothing keeping a carb'd car from competing with an ECU car...

Emphasis mine. You guys really don't seem to disagree. I am ASSuming that by properly classified you (Darin) also are speaking to the weight at which it is classed, not just the class.

Give that same Z, FI and an open ECU and it will have an advantage over the carbed version.

[Brad]

Hi Jake,

5 seconds is a lot to make up for. Implementing items I. - IV would be a step in the right direction with minimal cost and I do see your legitimate concerns. Would it be asking too much to try something out in one region, and if deemed appropriate, roll it out to the rest of the regions?

Port matching is good for a few horses but nothing earth-shattering!

A good 2bbl carb with big chokes would take a few seconds off times and really help the motor rev. But what would also make a big improvement is dropping a lot of weight which is tough to do within IT rules as they stand today.

It seems that the Improved Touring Comp board is very limited in what it will allow for competetion adjustments; making comp adjustments extremely limited. Kinda ironic that SCCA Speed Challenge can make twin turbo Audi's compete with Cadillac CTS V6. Mabye it's time to re-evaluate the way competition adjustments are done in IT, or is that a big can of worms? For comparison Speed Touring cars are adjusted by changing air restrictor, rev limiter, or weight. And can make the 4 cyl Proteges run with inline 6 BMW's and V6 Mazda6.

Mabye we're looking at this the wrong way. What *does* the Comp Board use to make competition adjustments? Besides weight? If we get a list of what could be done mabye we could come up with a legal package.

Alternatively, if the Weber 32/36 DGV is allowed as an alternative carb, what are your thoughts on running DUAL DGV's on the rotary?

I think it would be a lot easier to just class GSL-SE in ITA and let the 12a guys update and backdate as needed. The B motor, bigger brakes and EFI would help out.

Last but not least, what other 20 year old carburettored cars are in ITA, and how do they fare? Are they as concerned about being out of date and technologically behind as we are?

------------------
--Brad--

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited November 10, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited November 10, 2004).]

[tdw6974]

To can write/email the comp board directly at [email protected] to express your opinion on the move to ITB. My email 1 of 4 received so far!!!!!!! encouraged the move retaining 7 in wheels (allowing current ITB to have the option of going to 7 in wheels) add some weight to the 1st gen. I would suggest including your membership # and info on your car. TW

------------------
Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Andy:

....I am going to attempt to give you my perspective, BUT, I know this will only give you more incentive to disprove my reasons.

....1. We spend more time replacing brake rotors than most other classes. Why? Because we are trying to do more than what they are designed for.

So why should we want to add weight?

....2. Most of us have spent close to two thousand dollars on wheels that will be of no use to anyone if we move to ITB.

So why would we want 6" wheels?

....3. We have spent countless hours trying to get our cars competitive but are being judged by the majority that do not.

I always hear them complaining while I'm working on my car.

....4. A car with a carburetor cannot compete against a "no holds barred" ECU car without help no matter where you put it.

....5. We will be a hard fit wherever we go. A rotary engine has a personality that does not mix well with piston engines. (No Torque)

So we always get treated different.

....Review. I have been racing an RX7 for eleven years. I enjoy racing with the ITS/ITA cars. I spend more money, and work on my brakes more than other cars in other classes do. And I know for a fact that more weight with narrower wheels will only compound that problem.

.....Jake: I know my car is legal. If you are unsure, come to Savannah next weekend. And I'll let you (and anybody else that wants to) take a look. My car has been teched and checked so many times that I have lost count.

.....Andy: Since you will not bring your ITS car down to CMP I guess you will have to take my word for it. What gets me is, you do not have a first gen RX7 so where do YOU get your opinion? I hope you do go ITA with your Miata. Then you will see just how much disparity there is. Of course you may have already seen it in your ITS car. HUH

.....I have always tried to enjoy my racing as a hobby. The personal satisfaction of having built my own car and driving it at the limit gives me great pleasure. To me that is what SCCA CLUB RACING is all about. Trying to group cars together in CLASSES I know is an insurmountable task, but, no matter how hard you try you will not get them all competitive

.....I have tried and tried to get my car as fast as it can be. Now you want me (along with several others) to slow my car down. If the other people that are for the change had half as much time invested as I do they wouldn't want to make the move either.

..Okay Andy, There you go chop away, But remember, At least I'm not afraid to state my HONEST opinion.

....Rick Thompson # 99


[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited November 10, 2004).]

1st off Rick, I am sorry you feel my sole purpose in life is to disprove your ideas. Just becasue we disagree doesn't make it true. You have a very firm opinion on this subject, and as one of the faster guys in the country - your opinion is important to me - however, I asked you some specifics because I haven't seen any as of yet. I'm not sure why you made the honesty comment, I have been nothing but.

#'s 1 and 2 are just facts that go with a move to ITB. The question remains, would the car be better off classed in ITB. These comments don't address the question at hand.

#5 to me is hogwash. Do you perceive some sort of prejudice because you drive a rotory? If you do, it's your region - the ITS guys aren't saying the same thing.

#3 is the meat of the post. You say that the car is competitive, but all anyone can find for data to back it up is your Regional results that show ITA is not as strong as it is on other parts of the country. IT7 and ITA track records were set at the ARRC, is the RX-7 at such a big disadvantage there that is what defines the 4+ second delta? I just can't see it. The ITS RX-7's are just as down on torque as you guys are and it's about the total pacakge.

I respect your opinion Rick, but you have yet to give us ANY data that supports your position from a philisophical perspective. I am still confused about your 'challenge' for me to come down to CMP with an ITS car. If you beat me, it won't be because your car was better, TRUST ME - and THAT is what we are talking about here, car vs. car. It's rediculous to challenge someone from a faster class knowing nothing about their driving talent unless you think you can outdrive them or out'car' them - either way, you know nothing about the total package so the challenge remains just plain dumb. If you think I can drive with you and you STILL think you can hang, then maybe we should be talking about the 1st gen RX-7 moving to ITS...

I am really just trying to understand WHY you think the car isn't better in ITB - and I think that you are saying that you have done your homework, developed a great car, drive the wheels off of it and the results speak for themselves. Well, from a Regional point of view, I can understand that. But when you DEFINE for us a top car and a top driver, and they get SMOKED by the same talent and prep in an ITA CRX/Acura/240SX, I have to disagree.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited November 14, 2004).]

[Hotshoe]

Andy, Jake,& Darin:
...I'm going to address these questions and comments directly so there will be no confusion.
[quote]Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
[B] 1st off Rick, I am sorry you feel my sole purpose in life is to disprove your ideas.
#'s 1 and 2 are just facts that go with a move to ITB. The question remains, would the car be better off classed in ITB. These comments don't address the question at hand.

.. 1&2 refers to Brakes & Wheels. I have a problem already with brakes. The rotor and hub are a complete assembly. So every time one cracks you have to toss it all. Poor design but here is the concern on my part.
...I have a failure about three times a season. So far none have developed into an accident but I did have a "lock up" at high speed this year. And like I stated: adding weight and 6" rims will only compound that problem. So I fail to see your SAFETY concerns.

#5 to me is hogwash. Do you perceive some sort of prejudice because you drive a rotory? If you do, it's your region - the ITS guys aren't saying the same thing.

...I guess if I had EFI with an ECU I could hold my own a little better. But the rule of "no port matching" only points at the 1st gen ROTARY doesn't it. So let us not drag a 2nd gen into this. They do match.

#3 is the meat of the post. You say that the car is competitive, but all anyone can find for data to back it up is your Regional results that show ITA is not as strong as it is on other parts of the country. IT7 and ITA track records were set at the ARRC, is the RX-7 at such a big disadvantage there that is what defines the 4+ second delta? I just can't see it. The ITS RX-7's are just as down on torque as you guys are and it's about the total pacakge.

....There you go with the 2nd gen car again. Not part of this topic, but, like I said: Give me EFI and ECU and I could do better than I am now.
....I gave you results from all the tracks I run. And even though the SEDiv does not have as many ITA cars as other regions. We do have some very fast ones.
..Mike Vansteenburg in my opinion is one of the best drivers in the South East. I judge myself by how well I compete against him when we are both on top. And so far I am pleased with how we both have done.
...So given my standard to compare my RX7 to I feel that it is adequate.

I respect your opinion Rick, but you have yet to give us ANY data that supports your position from a philisophical perspective. I am still confused about your 'challenge' for me to come down to CMP with an ITS car. If you beat me, it won't be because your car was better, TRUST ME - and THAT is what we are talking about here, car vs. car. It's rediculous to challenge someone from a faster class knowing nothing about their driving talent unless you think you can outdrive them or out'car' them - either way, you know nothing about the total package so the challenge remains just plain dumb. If you think I can drive with you and you STILL think you can hang, then maybe we should be talking about the 1st gen RX-7 moving to ITS...

...As far as the last part of this, This is the second time that you have referred to something I have said as being "dumb". I was taught to have better respect for others, especially in a public place such as this. So what is the problem ?????

Jake:

1-added expense, both in wheels and extra brake wear
2-you enjoy the run group you are currently in, and...
3-that the rotary won't mix well with piston engined and ECU'ed cars?

....1. Safety concerns. I have enough failures already. Added weight and narrower tires will only increase this problem. To you this may only be an expense, but what kind? My budget does not have any lack of Safety. The cost of the rotors and pads is not even significant with me. Is that all that concerns you?

....2. I enjoy the run group because it is faster. Goals are harder to reach, but, still a challenge. I'm sorry, but, I do not see any challenges in ITB.

....3. Is only a true statement. Despite what Darin says, a carb is no match for EFI w/ECU. I could get the exact figures but from what I have gathered from some drag racing guys it's around a 7 percent increase in power. So it makes the car hard to match up. Look at what they had to do with the RX8 in the Touring class.

...So the question still remains...To B or not to B ....??? LOL
.....I'm happy where I am. I have worked to long and to hard to speed my car up.
.....I do not want to slow it down in a SLOWER CLASS..... No Thanks.

---Rick Thompson # 99

[lateapex911]

Interesting...yours is the first that I have heard of RX-7 hubs blowing apart on a regular basis. I do see small checks in mine but it's not that often. I wonder what the nationwide average is? Of course, it's dependant on the type of track, the weight of the car, the pads used, the balance of the system, and of course, the talent.

I would imagine that the harder the car is driven, the worse the problem. But I also know a LOT of RX-7s are already running at weights we'd see if it were moved to ITB. Lets say the new weight is 2480. About a 4% increase. Is that the difference between business as usual and a real safety issue?

Anyway....looks like you've got a good thing going where you are, and that's cool. From my angle, I'd gladly do some fresh development to accept the narrow wheels and increased weight in order to have a fair shot... It would be better than having my ass handed to me weekly.

(and hey...we're only talking a second a lap here! How much slower is that?)


And it would be better for the category as a whole. As it is, ITC, and to a lesser degree, ITB are withering on the vine. We have 4 classes, lets use 'em.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Look at what they had to do with the RX8 in the Touring class.

Not sure what you mean by this... the RX-8 SUCKS in T2, compared to the 350Z, etc...

Again, the 240Z has carbs, and the Integra and 2nd gen RX-7 have EFI and ECUs... We have at least two 240Zs out here that I'd put up against any 2nd gen or ITS Integra in the country... The point is that if the ECU, etc., is taken into consideration at the time of classification, the cars will end up being competitive...

To say otherwise only shows that the cars weren't classified at the correct specs to start with... ECU and EFI have little to do with that...

Oh, and as for hub failures... I'd be interested to know how many of these happen with aftermarket rotors for the RX-7? Have you tried Brembos, or other brands that have them for the 7??? Was the result the same???

I have to say... Have you ever considered that you may be pushing the brakes too far?? Sounds condescending I know, but ANY one of our brakes is going to suffer from these kinds of failures if we push them beyond their limits... Kind of defines the "limits", I'd say...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Not sure what you mean by this... the RX-8 SUCKS in T2, compared to the 350Z, etc...

yes. this threw me off too...didn't it get reclassed to T3? Either way, comparing "stock" to IT is a tough call...

Again, the 240Z has carbs, and the Integra and 2nd gen RX-7 have EFI and ECUs... We have at least two 240Zs out here that I'd put up against any 2nd gen or ITS Integra in the country... The point is that if the ECU, etc., is taken into consideration at the time of classification, the cars will end up being competitive...

Whooohoo! YeeeeeHA! He gets it! Finally someone knows the deal!!!! Man how good is it to have somebody who understands the basics in charge?? And since he understands that fact, he also "gets" why the whole ECU thing was dumb, as it came post classification ....

Oh, and as for hub failures... I'd be interested to know how many of these happen with aftermarket rotors for the RX-7? Have you tried Brembos, or other brands that have them for the 7??? Was the result the same???

Aftermarket hubs/discs?? Not legal yet, are they? (I have a set of Brembos on the shelf that will go on the car January 1!)



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[dickita15]

rick i am not sure how the narrower tires will make the brakes worse. i would have thought that the poorer braking of the the narrower tires required to run in B would be easier on the brakes. i agree that the weight would add some heat. my car runs heavy, well yea the driver is to heavy too, and i agree that the front rotors are a weak link. I crack a set a year in a 8 or 9 race season.
dick patullo

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rick,

I will just agree to disagree with you. And I am sorry if you take offense to me calling your ITS vs. ITA RX-7 challenge dumb. How about absurd? Seriously, it was a weird thing to do.

You have obviously done a great job making your RX-7 one of the fastest ITA cars in your patch. The fact remains that it, nor you could compete on the fastest stage, against the fastest drivers - and that is the issue. I mean jeez, Mike V. in his Miata is already beating you by 2.5 seconds per lap at RR. (or was the Invitaional an anomoly? Could have been as I just looked at the numbers, not the circumstances..)

Pride and effort aside, is the car more A or B? IMHO, I have seen nothing to date, here or in letters, that show it's an A car anymore. Should something be done? Now that is the tough call.

I respect your stance, I just don't understand.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited November 15, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by dickita15:
I crack a set a year in a 8 or 9 race season.
dick patullo

I believe it was Chris Albin that mentioned once that replacing the hubs on his VW every so-many races was all part of the maintanence of the car... If you went so-many races plus one, they'd fail...

A set of rotors over an 8-9 race season doesn't sound that bad to me, especially with the brake compounds we run... I don't think I'd get much more than that from the 240 rotors...

These are wear items, after all... and they aren't THAT expensive to replace... Cheaper than the pads!



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[JeffYoung]

Andy, the SIC Invitational was an anomaly. It was a split start, the 7s all started a few hundred yards behind the S and A cars and had to work their way through traffic.

Mike V.'s Miata and Rick's 7 are both incredibly well-prepped, and incredibly well-driven and typically run nearly identical times at VIR, Roebling and CMP.

I guess that's the one thing that's really making this a hard discussion to have. Because those three tracks (and Lowe's) are all within a 4-5 hour two of most of the SEDiv, that group of tracks sees the same group of drivers over and over (probably like Homestead-Sebring-Moroso....or Limerock-NHIS-WGI). In that group of drivers, on those tracks (throwing out Road Atlanta, which we consider to be an anomaly), the 7s sure look like a good A car to me...although I have a far better understanding of the data to the contrary now from this thread, and agree it is strong.

The strongest piece of data is that the fast A cars came down south for the ARRC and did really well. But again, we consider RA to be different than any other track here in teh Southeast (Jake, I hear you on the "classic" road course idea, but isn't VIR as well? and it is far less torque dependent). I would really like to see Anthony Serra run a three race series against Rick at CMP, VIR and Roebling, and then another at WGI, Limerock and NHIS. I think that would clear up a lot of gray area.
.....and it will probably never happen...lol.

In any event, I for one and glad to see teh debate out in the open and don't envy the decision makers.

Thanks again guys.

Jeff

[Hotshoe]

Andy:

...It's amusing to me how you think my challenge is absurd. If you only knew. LOL
I'm not the one questioning my motives. Like I told you....My car is in the trailer.

...And the results from Roebling Road at the SIC are from a Split Start race. I was in traffic every lap.( So I guess you can call that an anomaly )

...Earlier this year I passed Mike V. at Roebling Road and finished the race at the front. Our score between us is 3 to 2 in Mike's favor. (And we do keep score)

...I can see where this is going, and despite what I say, you will only see the side of this that suits your cause.

...I would prefer to be in a class where my car has to be at the limit. Because I know what will happen if the car is put in ITB. I can hear it already.