Attn: First gen guys...

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

While brainstorming is good, we relaly need to stick with ideas that COULD get implemented. Suggesting RX-specific mods to speed cars up, ala Production is, is simply not consistant with the class philosophy, not supported by the current ITAC or the CRB.

While I am the classic 'big-picture' guy and I think the CRB needs to do something to get this large pocket of cars back out there filling up grids and Regional revenue streams, there is a limit.

It's not that anyone wants to hold back your free-flowing ideas, it's that we can direct the ideas to an acceptable area so you don't waste your time.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[dyoungre]

If we want to avoid specific rules, ala prod, then why don't we ELIMINATE the specific rule for the rotary engine, which makes intake manifold port matching illegal only for us.

This change would not make us instant winners - I still firmly believe ITB is the right place for this car.

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[ddewhurst]

Andy, at one time there were people that thought the world was flat. Take your we (ITAC) can't do nothing attitude & place it where it's dark.

Nuff said

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

While your post doesn't deserve a reply, I will give you one anyway:

Write your ideas down and send them in. We get them all, they all end up on an agenda, we debate the merits of each one and we pass along a recommendation to the CRB.

We would rather have more letters than less.

Take the high road once in a while, the view is better.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Tak]

Darrin-
Thanks for the well thought response. I never thought of a faster than S class--that's quite a good idea, as it solves the problem of where do we put T2 cars in 3(?) years.

What makes me think an FI car responds better to race prep than a carb car? --I've seen what a bunch of the showroom "stock" guys are achieving (no names to protect the ...). Of course, with no more carbureated cars, it is kind of a mute point. I suppose we could ask all the FI cars to retain the stock exhaust manifold!

Regarding flywheels, those aren't just bolt on accessories. Done right, it requires an alternate front balance weight and the engine must be disassembled and the enitire rotating assembly re-balanced. AND a light flywheel wont help me down the long 4th gear straights.

Alternate carburators? Why? The Nikki was fine on the Rx-3SP that makes 165-170 at the crank. Properly built, the secondaries open very quickly--I see mine open ~half way in the time it takes the motor to rev from idle 5k with no load. A webber DCOE could work (and the manifolds are available. But have you heard how they run on the Formula Mazda's? Not well, as they don't have good transition circuits...

Tak
ITA # 29 SFR SCCA

[ddewhurst]

Andy, if you are on the high road (know it all with all the answers) please post some numbers that represent the number of different IT cars that enter events per year & the number of different Production cars that enter events per year & tell me why WE in IT don't deserve more attention from the CRB than the Production cars.

In short, who pays more to the Regions & who pays more to Topeka. Squeaky wheel deal....

If after Andy posts the numbers & his numbers show me I am wrong I will apologize to all.

David

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

As usual, I HAVE NO IDEA what you are getting at. Since when did a thread on the ITA RX-7 become one about attendance numbers?

IT has a dedicated Advisory Board, all the appropriate CRB liasons and is working just fine. We have had great feedback on the new 'direction' of the class (some would call it a correction), and we still feel like we have a lot of work to do. I feel like we are supported VERY well at the National level.

Sorry if you are so offended that I tried to help you out by steering you away from a suggestion that NONE of the current administration wants to entertain.

Maybe you should start here - take a poll on this BB and ask if anyone is interested in MODEL-SPECIFIC engine/performance allowances to speed up individual cars. If there is even an incling of unbiased support, I will personally walk your letter through the process.

Sorry you feel the way you do about me and/or the ITAC, but your perceptions are 180 degrees from reality.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[dyoungre]

Andy and Darin,
I for one feel the need to voice my support for both your efforts AND your accomplishments over the past few years. Changes for safety (batteries), changes for cost containment (opening up wheel choices) are welcomed changes in the spirit of IT: giving people a place to race on a moderate budget. I certainly agree with avoiding model specific changes, and consider the new weight corrections the way to go, as it can be applied to any model.
I believe there was effort from the beginning to 'control' rotary engine potential, and that some of the rules, such as the intake porting, have gone overboard. I'd like to see the rotary specific rules reviewed, and where appropriate, eliminated.
The limiting factor to 12A rotary horsepower is the intake port area, plain and simple. The Nikki, as TAK stated, doesn't have the driveability of a well calibrated FI system (There is some black art to getting a consistent air/fuel ratio from 4K to 8K) and spark timing can never be optimized as it can with ECU control.
I'm rambling, but my point is this: without intake-side porting, such as street porting (DSR has a required template, I believe) we will not be able to increase the engine performance of a 12A to make the RX7 competitive on tracks where HP/lbs is important.
Therefore, the best way to correctly class the 12A RX7 is the method that you've instituted: add some weight, and put it in B, applying the B specific rules (wheel size). Even if too much weight is added initially, it could be corrected at a later date. In 'A', it can never be classed correctly with methods that are in the spirit of the rules.

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by dyoungre:
Andy and Darin,
I for one feel the need to voice my support for both your efforts AND your accomplishments over the past few years. Changes for safety (batteries), changes for cost containment (opening up wheel choices) are welcomed changes in the spirit of IT: giving people a place to race on a moderate budget. I certainly agree with avoiding model specific changes, and consider the new weight corrections the way to go, as it can be applied to any model.
I believe there was effort from the beginning to 'control' rotary engine potential, and that some of the rules, such as the intake porting, have gone overboard. I'd like to see the rotary specific rules reviewed, and where appropriate, eliminated.
The limiting factor to 12A rotary horsepower is the intake port area, plain and simple. The Nikki, as TAK stated, doesn't have the driveability of a well calibrated FI system (There is some black art to getting a consistent air/fuel ratio from 4K to 8K) and spark timing can never be optimized as it can with ECU control.
I'm rambling, but my point is this: without intake-side porting, such as street porting (DSR has a required template, I believe) we will not be able to increase the engine performance of a 12A to make the RX7 competitive on tracks where HP/lbs is important.
Therefore, the best way to correctly class the 12A RX7 is the method that you've instituted: add some weight, and put it in B, applying the B specific rules (wheel size). Even if too much weight is added initially, it could be corrected at a later date. In 'A', it can never be classed correctly with methods that are in the spirit of the rules.

So it seems that Dave Y. somehow snuck onto my hard drive and lifted my thoughts. Nicely said and summed up.

I DO like the blue sky brainstorming approach though....but I am resigned that there isn't smoething out there that has been "missed" that is in the spirit of the rules, and that would make enough difference to put the car on a par with cars that put down 140~150 plus at the wheels. Not to mention the torque figures which can be almost 30 to 40% higher.

Ok, back to the shop, gotta pack for the ARRCs.

(Nice to see so many ITAC guys going, BTW, AND CRB Chairman Kurt Weiss as well! Thanks....)



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Deleated

David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited November 02, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited November 02, 2004).]

[ddewhurst]

***Since when did a thread on the ITA RX-7 become one about attendance numbers?***

Since I asked the question.

Andy's answer is:

A. Events IT cars entered during year 2004.
Answer:____________________________________

B. Events Production cars entered during year 2004.
Answer:____________________________________

If you don't fill in the blanks above I will presume you don't have or can't find the information.

Have a nice day
David

[dickita15]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
If you don't fill in the blanks above I will presume you don't have or can't find the information.

or c: does not see where it is relevant to the thread

dick patullo

[gran racing]

Is there any other answer other then c? Certainly not in this thread.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[lateapex911]

David,....just curious here....did you teach at one time?? Or perhaps serve as an officer somewhere?

oooops...sorry not on topic!

His point is that IT pays the club bills, and that Prod gets more attention and it's an unfair situation. Andy will remind him of the PPI, and David will come back with a reminder that we've added PCAs, so whats the difference between Prod and IT?

The answers are, yes, IT does pay it's way, maybe more, but the PPI is greater than the PCA concept, the category doesn't need to follow prod, but searching for ideas with an open mind IS good.

I do like the removal of the "only the rotary can't...." rules, but they just aren't enough to make it work in A.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Jake, off topic the answer is NO to both. & your correct Jake paying the bills is what I'm getting to. We pay the bills therefore the red headed step child syndrome needs to be put aside & we in IT should get an appropriate amount of attention to the bills we in IT pay.

Dick, your as paranoid as Andy & your both to the level suited for the CRB. O-shit your both from the NorthEast. Is that where paranoia comes natural. Maybe answer D. because the original topic has been exhausted per Andy.

I highly dought Andy or anyone else will get the information I requested fron Andy simply because the SCCA has no such information. I have asked the SCCA in the past for said information & all they could say was naw we don't have that kind of information. To which I said what kind of information do you use to make SCCA business decisions. Duhh

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

The information you ask for is in hard copy and not tallied. Our CRB liason gets results from every Regional race in the country. It COULD be tallied if someone wanted to do so - or saw value in it.

You must have ignored my post above. IT is not the 'step-child' you say it is. We have the same support and infrastucture as all the other classes. Frankly, I think the CRB is excited about the direction and freshening of the class. In the Northeast, IT participation is as a record high.

If you are simply asking why isn't IT a National class, then there are a ton of different opinions on that.

Sorry to the 13 private e-mailers who said I should have simply stated "C".

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[dickita15]

david
while my answer was certainly flippant i do not think it was paranoid. to me at least the point you were trying to make that IT is important to scca is obvious but i do not see how it relates to andy's comment that it might not be of much use to seriously consider modifications that would require such a large change in the philosophy IT.
by the way in the northeast IT is over a third of entries and the is not including SM or ITE.
dick patullo
sitting around in the rain at Atlanta

[Hotshoe]

Andy and Jake:

....I wonder how Jake's lap times compare to Brain Dobson's? That would give me a good idea if the RX7s in his area run comparable lap times to cars in the SEDiv.
....If his times are off then how can he be a good example? Should we add in the difference to his lap times elsewhere? Example: If Brian is 1.5 seconds faster than the fastest NER RX7 (Jake?) then you should add 1.5 seconds to his lap times at other tracks to get a true comparison. But that sounds just about as smart as comparing a RX7 to a CRX at Atlanta... Doesn't it.
....Maybe it is time to do your homework. There is a big difference between tracks, cars, and drivers. Looking at things and portraying them to suit your purpose sure makes it look one sided.
....Andy took something I said totally out of text and tried to make me look like an idiot. Well, maybe I am, so be it. But I'm not stupid. My comment was directed toward Jake. I did not say anything about a IT7-ITA comparison at Road Atlanta. Why would I? I know that an RX7 is at a disadvantage at THAT track. BUT NOT AT ALL OF THEM.
....My comment was directed toward Jake so he would compare his Level with Brian Dobson's. I consider Brian to be a good example of what a top level RX7 is capable of. To compare him to an ITA car at Road Atlanta is not at all what I meant.

....Quit Beating a Dead Horse and try to help both sides. Staying in ITA is just as important (with comp adjustments) to some of us as, you wanting us to move to ITB.

[tdw6974]

In the Northeast there are several series within the groups. NARRC, NYSRRC,NESCCA & a bit to the south MARRS. I think if you compare the top 6-8 cars in each series that is more meanifull than trying to compare individual times at different tracks. In the NYSRRC series we ended up 5th. Everyhing ahead are the Integra/Honda based cars. I'm sure there must be some similar type series in other division or perhaps they have IT7 pro 7 or Spec 7 that they run the first Gen in.

------------------
Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"

[Andy Bettencourt]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Quit Beating a Dead Horse and try to help both sides. Staying in ITA is just as important (with comp adjustments) to some of us as, you wanting us to move to ITB.</font>

This is an important statement to me. Tell me why it's important to stay in ITA. It will help me understand your position a WHOLE lot better. Seriously.

Understand that we aren't taking one car at a couple of tracks to draw conclusions. Jake is a "10,000 foot view" kind of thinker as are the members of the ITAC.

The point is that the WHOLE issue here is whether or not the 1st gen RX-7 is more suited to ITB or ITA. I contest that the data shows it is MUCH more an ITB car. The raw stats of the car and the data from tracks where top drivers compete against each other supports that. I really believe it.

I didn't try and make you look dumb. You pointed out who a top driver was andused his performance to make my point that the ITA RX-7 was no match for a top ITA car. There is NO WAY that the RX-7 is handicapped that much at RA because other 'torqeless' cars are at least in the same stratusphere.

Other than your local Region where IT7 beats ITA, what other data do you have to disprove the 7 is more a B car than an A?

In the end, this car may just be a 'tweener' that has to either die a slow death in ITA or utilize regional resources to create IT7. It happens, but I think it can be prevented - especially for a car with such a large following.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com