Attn: First gen guys...

[RSTPerformance]

In NER they do have a Mazda belt award.... almost more rewarding than winning hte race from what I hear.

I am in ITB and have responded with my thoughts. I think it should be added to ITB with a 100#-200# penalty. I am not knowledgable enough to make a better decision than that.

I also think that it should be allowed to stay in ITA at the current weight so drivers ahve the choice to run either or.

I also think that the RX-7 if moved to B should be winning races or at least in the top runnings "out of the box" they have been developed to teh max and run for several years. There can't be many more ideas out there to continuedevelopment to make them faster over time. so theoredically tehy dhould be as fast as they will ever be... unless rules/tires/and other things change that change for everyone so everyone gets faster.

Stephen

PS: they did create a "girlie" class in NER.... Hmmmm... al time "chic" cars over time..... VW Cabriolet then Miata's... Ok your right the miata might be more of a chick car than even the VW cabriolet.

[RacerBowie]

"Bowie...good stuff! How many guys are there, to your knowledge in a Miata that have been able to make it work? Your times at Atlanta...do you see possible improvement there? ...I run against Serra (fastest race lap at the ARRCs last year), and some other guys who run right with him every race...can the Miata run in that crowd? Nice job BTW, thanks for bringing me up to speed."

To my personal knowledge, there have been 3 miatas built to this level. Mine, Mike VanSteenberg's, and Todd Reynolds'. The latter two are Florida cars, and Todd's was, I believe, sold to someone up north, or midwest, or something.

I feel that there is a minimum of a second left in the car exactly as it sits, with no further development. In about 3 weeks I will be able to give you an update, as I will have new Hoosiers for the ARRC (first set of new tires since July of '02) and will be running on a level field with the best. I think it would take 1:44s flat at least to run up front at the ARRC this year (look for a new lap record if the weather cooperates). I don't know that the car is there yet, but I am gunning for a top 5ish run.

The biggest handicap to the miata, in my view, is getting down the long straights (aero). In a draft, it is very competitive (duh). Pull out of the draft to drive by someone, and it is like throwing out the anchor. If I come out of 7 at Rd. Atlanta 100% even, side by side, with a top crx, we are absolutely equal up to about halfway through 4th gear. At that point the CRX will start to stretch it's legs, and by the end of the straight (5000 ish feet total) it will have about 1.5 carlengths on me, maybe more.

So, all development lately (and for a while to come) has been aero. I have some frontal area and drag comparisions of several ITA cars in stock configs, and the miata is a pig, almost as bad as the neon and the integra. Without having the bigger power numbers those two heavier cars have, it really hurts down the long straights. We will be playing with air dams over the next few races, trying to tease the air around the front tires. (the miata presents a large portion of the front tire to the wind, rather than hiding it behind the bumper like an integra or crx)

On top of all that, I have not driven enough lately to be on top form. I am taking the street miata to a DE next weekend to instruct/get some seat time, then running the whole test day for the ARRC. Just the test day will be more laps than I have turned in the race car in over a year. The goal, now made public for both people who have read this stupidly long diatribe to see, is 1:44.5's or thereabouts for the ARRC.

We shall see.

Bowie

[Banzai240]

To all... (well, except Andy and any other ITAC member...)

This conversation is all fine and dandy, but quite frankly, it isn't taking this subject anywhere. I don't say that to be a jerk, but rather to point out that decisions on this stuff don't get made here... they get made by the CRB, and the CRB doesn't likely read too much of this board... They read LETTERs...

As of this moment, we have ONE letter asking for the RX-7 to be moved... Hardly a swell of support for the request.

Nothing brings an issue to the forefront quite like a lot of input from the competitors. Especially if that input contains real and reasonable data highlighting how the mechanical aspects of the car compare to others in the class... (in other words, NOT results, but hp figures, weights, real numbers that aren't effected by talent, skill, or experience...)

To this point, I've heard the car isn't competitive, and that it is... I've heard that it doesn't make enough power, and that it does... I've heard the lap times aren't on the pace, and that they are... I've heard etc... and etc., etc....

I'm here to tell you that, even with VERY reasonable arguments and lots of discussion showing how the cars don't stack up on paper, most still don't agree, so there is a major uphill battle here.

The RX-7 was a real winner in ITA at one point, and the perception is that the cars just stopped being developed because they didn't have to be... they were/are cheap hp, where someone could throw together a car with the same suspension as so-and-so, put in a remanned or junkyard street motor with the same header that such-and-such runs, and go win races...

Those that seem to rise to the top, I suspect, have had a little more time spent making improvements....

That said, on paper, the car still doesn't appear to be competitive against the front runners of ITA... I think at around 2200lbs, however, it could be a lot closer, if that weight were possible to achieve.

One letter, however well it gets the ball rolling, hardly shows a huge demand for this move...

And, for the record, I'm one of the one's who think this move would work out fine... I would add weight to the car, as I don't believe that 6" wheels would make THAT big of a difference... so I'd recommend an additional 170lbs. or so...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[ddewhurst]

Bowie, Darin, good reading.

Thanks

***With transponders if the ITAC reclasses the RX-7 to ITB why not leave the car classed in ITA parallel with the reclass to ITB. Let the driver decide which class she/he will run.***

Andy, I have nothing else to say about this subject. Is the previous statement reposted above simple enough for the ITAC to handle ?

Have Fun
David

ps: & I will write a letter requesting the above.

[dickita15]

Darin, while I agree this thread degenerated I belive it was started with the intent of gathering information to support such requests. As to those who say that the rx7 is competitive in A now, no one on this thread will give specifics. I am curious as to where in the world of scca the rx7 is doing well in A and what the level of competition is.
As to the lack of continueing devlopment while i agree that there are many shoestring and novice efforts in Rx7's many of the IT7 cars i have looked at from cendiv and se seem to be very well turned out machines. If IT7 has acomplised one thing it has given members a reason to keep working the cars to make them better.

So a plea to those that feel the 1st gen in a fine ITA car where is this happening. what tracks, what regions, what competition.

if the car was judged solely on it's spec i think the move to be would be a slam dunk. low power to weight, very little torque, poor left to right weight distribution and live axel.

but i guess we have to look at on track performance because we hear claims that someplace legal rx7's are doing well. we just are not told where.
Dick Patullo

[Jim Susko]

Jake, to keep this simple I think you are right on. Move the car to ITB with a wheel change or even without it and the car will be competitive, but not an overdog. I did the stats myself several years ago at the ARRC and some of your responders did it for the last coudple races. This shows the car would be just right in B.

And the only data that means anything to me is the ARRC. You'll notice that some very fast regional cars never show up there since they took the cars out of ITA into their own class. That's because the fast ones now get torn down. And there the 7's run with the top B's. Narrower rims will slow them down even more.

When I went to the ARRC last year I posted fastest race lap by a couple tenths, though having my car stick in third at the start didn't help my finish. Yet here in Cendiv there USED to be a guy that was a couple seconds faster than the rest of us IT7 cars. Funny he never went to the ARRC. So forget regional comparisons. I'm not that bad a driver/preparer that I can't find two seconds I've misplaced.

Jim Susko

[dyoungre]

To all that compete with a 1st gen RX7,

If you agree that the RX7 belongs in ITB, but don't remember how to address an envelope, or put a stamp on an envelope, you can still write a letter.

EMAIL YOUR LETTER to [email protected]

It is the same as writing a paper letter to the board; supporting data can be included on the email (in a file, in the body of the email), and would surely be appreciated (if explained).

The more people who write, and the more objective data that is provided, the better chance we have. I wrote, and I received confirmation that my letter will get a response.

DO IT!

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
To all... (well, except Andy and any other ITAC member...)

As of this moment, we have ONE letter asking for the RX-7 to be moved... Hardly a swell of support for the request.

Generally speaking, you usually get letters when there is a request for input from the membership regarding an issue. There has been no request made that I am aware of regarding the 7... Until now. You will receive my hopefully logical letter!

To this point, I've heard the car isn't competitive, and that it is... I've heard that it doesn't make enough power, and that it does... I've heard the lap times aren't on the pace, and that they are...

Here's what you (presumably) haven't heard. I know I sure haven't. Not one hard fact (or even reliable results!) that supprots the "Fine for A, too fast for B" arguement. IF so, where are the dyno numbers? What calculations are there supporting that? What legal RX-7 is whipping a Fowler CRX 9or equivilent)????

Every time someone mentions how they will clean up in B, or that they saw "a guy" run with a CRX, and I ask for supporting data, the silence is deafening.............

The RX-7 was a real winner in ITA at one point, and the perception is that the cars just stopped being developed because they didn't have to be...

Here's a perception that is not only illogical, but wrong. 'Because they didn't have to be??' Having your butt whipped around the track by a CRX indicates the need for more develepment as well as anything!

Jim Susko is a former GM chassis engineer. Say what you will about GM, but they aren't ones to hire morons! (properly utilizing their staff is another issue, but I digress) Jim has been developing suspension parts for this car and selling them quietly out of his G-Force business, for at least 7 years now, and most of his components have been revised and improved time and again. He's a top notch engineer, prep guy and driver. His runs at the ARRCs are to be heavily considered in any discussion.

Paul Yaw has been fine tuning and developing the intake side of the rotary for the past number of years as well, and is one of the, if not THE preeminant rotary carb gurus in the country. More reliable and tractable carburetion is available now for the RX-7 than there was 6 or so years ago.

Mike VanSteenburg in Florida runs a race shop, ISC, and continues to design and sell parts for the 1st gen, and up until recently campaigned one or two, before the obvious impossibility of the situation caused him to look to other Mazda models.

The RX-7 WAS once a winner, but was never THE car to have. It was as you point out, easy, cheap, fun and had lots of workable parts readily availble, and for those reasons, it was represented in great numbers. But the inclusion of the CRX, which went on to make more HP than was expected, then the addition of the Integra, the 240 SX, the Miata, and now the trickle downs from ITS moved the bar up

The RX-7s woes have most assuredly NOT been from a lack of trying!




------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Mike Spencer]

Rather than put my "spin" on the data (or be perceived as doing so), I will just say that the results for the SAARC Invitational Challenge were posted over the weekend at the SouthEast Division website.

ITS, ITA and IT7 were all in Group 2.

http://www.sedivracing.org/SARRC/04sic_res...ults/G2RACE.pdf

From what I can see, the highest placing 1st gen (if it HAD been in ITA) would have been 8th. That same car holds track records (for IT7) at Roebling Road and VIR (and perhaps others).

Comparing the "7"s to ITB is a little tougher. ITB was Group 3. If you want to compare "fast laps", you can look here;

http://www.sedivracing.org/SARRC/04sic_res...ults/G3RACE.pdf


------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[Hotshoe]

Mike:

Before you go jumping to conclusions about the SIC. Remember it was a split start. And I did not have a clean lap until lap 14 and by then there was no need to push it.

I have outrun Miatas and CRXs at Savannah, CMP, Homestead, and VIR and I mean good ones. Bowie and Mike as far as the Miatas. And Greg Ginsberg and Tourigny in CRXs.

So just because some can't, doesn't mean all of us are slow.

Here is an example: http://www.buccaneerregion.org/club/result...7R14results.pdf

Results are from a race that was not a split start.

Rick Thompson # 99 IT7

[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited October 18, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

So Rick...you're going to the ARRCs I would think, right? Local for you isn't it?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Hotshoe]

Jake:
I have no desire to go to the ARRC. Ever since the time "Fletch" made me push my car after running an ECR, by myself. And then gave me a hard time for parking my new wrecker next to my other truck, after I had already asked him if it would be okay. Go figure?????
I can get treated worse than that by a whole lot better people right here at home. So why drive 9 hours to race there?
VIR smokes that place. And you can't beat the North Carolina Region hospitality

I'm looking forward to the 13hr Race
..........Rick Thompson.............

[lateapex911]

Too bad, it would be great to have all the guys with a fast reputation in the same place at the same time.

What kind of times did you turn when you were there?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Mike:

Before you go jumping to conclusions about the SIC. Remember it was a split start...

Rick -

I wasn't there (and didn't realize it was a split-start), which is why I offered no opinions. (or tried not to)

I'll be attending the Roebling school in February, so I will look forward to having my butt kicked at March Memories!

BTW, I wasn't specifically looking for it but didn't notice your name on the 13-hour entry list. Which car are you with? Mine will be at the test day, and I am crewing for Heather on Saturday.

[EDIT: BTW]

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[This message has been edited by Mike Spencer (edited October 19, 2004).]

[Hotshoe]

Mike:

I will be driving a Spec Miata along with four other guys. Hope we do well. They handle a little better than my car so the change should be pretty easy.
Big difference will be the power decrease on the straights.

........Hope to see you there.......
------------Rick Thompson-----------

[JeffYoung]

Rick, when you get to the straight, just hit that big switch in the middle of the dash Mark and I put in the car last weekend. It deploys the afterburners....or maybe turns on the lights....durn, I can't remember.

Mike, I ran the SIC two weekends ago. I started tail end Charlie on the ITA/ITS field due to transponder issues. I passed four cars on the first lap, and Rick and Jeff Ryan still caught me after the split start by the carousel.

Jake, I do wish we could get the "best of the best" IT7s down here to run with the fast ITA guys up North. Should be interesting to watch. From my seat, it sure looks like RX7s can be competitive in A, but we've been down this road before....lol.

Rick, see you Saturday. Looking forward to it.

[Mike Guenther]

If the first gens were competitive in ITA, then IT-7 would never have been started. The IT-7 is exactly the same as ITA, unlike Spec 7 which is a bit more restrictive to keep costs down. The IT-7 sub-group was started because the first gens were no longer competitive with the rest of the ITA fields. That's what I was told 4 - 5 years ago. Seems to me that its still that way. Still a lot of fun racing them.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Mike Guenther:
The IT-7 sub-group was started because the first gens were no longer competitive with the rest of the ITA fields.

OR, was IT-7 created because you had to actually start spending MONEY on the 7 to be competitive in ITA???

No offense intended, but 1st gens have always been known for their cheap performance... Could it be that when those guys/gals driving them saw that they'd have to actually start putting some development time into them, and try something other than what everyone else was doing, that they decided it was easier to just start their own class???

I ask this, becuase for every few of you that say the car can't compete, there is a credible source that comes out and says, YES, they can...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[tdw6974]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
OR, was IT-7 created because you had to actually start spending MONEY on the 7 to be competitive in ITA???

No offense intended, but 1st gens have always been known for their cheap performance... Could it be that when those guys/gals driving them saw that they'd have to actually start putting some development time into them, and try something other than what everyone else was doing, that they decided it was easier to just start their own class???

I ask this, becuase for every few of you that say the car can't compete, there is a credible source that comes out and says, YES, they can...

Is the 240sx Fuel injected or carb?

[lateapex911]

Darin, I'm very curious.

Who are these "credible sources" that keep coming up? The way you say it, it's a 3 to 1 ratio of "no", to "yes". Thats a few credible sources!

Why do I never see their name or comment? Who are these credible sources? What real world data have they provided? What dyno numbers have they provided?

I don't mean to sound critical, I am just confused. From a purely empirical basis, it's easy to see that the RX-7 is a mid packer at best, but I'm using numbers I've seen with my own eyes and numbers from four nationaly respected experts.

If there is more power out there, I want to know!

And why is it that we have never, in recent years, seen an RX-7 anywhere near the front of an ITA field in an event where post race teardowns were likely, such as the ARRC?

Frankly, there is a contradiction in your comments. On one hand you say that the RX-7 guys haven't done proper developing, but on the other you say that there IS evidence that says the car is competitive...which implies that the development HAS been done...

Give me a hint...like "call the guy in...." or something...I'm really curious what the flipside of the coin is.

Heres how it boils down for me. The CRX, for example, (which might, or might not win the ARRCs) has roughly the same HP at the wheels in IT trim, but a bunch more torque. IF the suspension were the same, AND the weight was the same, AND the brakes were equivilent, wouldn't it be reasonable to say that it would still be an uphill battle for a car with a large torque deficiency to compete?

Keep in mind that the RX-7 is still considered to be a bit dodgy in the handling department, and not up to the CRX in braking either, but the latter is partly due to weight.

However, EVEN if those factors were equal, AND the weight the same, it's still an uphill battle, as far as I can tell.

But, lets say we say, OK, they are close enough at the same weight to call it a draw......how do we get 240 pounds out of an RX-7???

We don't. (I'm pretty light at 2165 or so dry...there is no way to get any where near the needed amount out. A compromise would work, of course, IF these were the only two cars we cared about. But there are at least two or three others right with the CRX that would need adjustment too. I doubt that we'll ever see weight added to all the front runners...they aren't really the issue!

So, where am I wrong? What numbers of mine are incorrect?? I know the weights are right...so you must have different chassis dyno results...

Just trying to understand....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 20, 2004).]