Attn: First gen guys...

[Dano77]

Greetings to all. I probably should not be posting as a current RX7 driver,but I will. The 7 is probably one of the most over developed cars in ITA right know, so the statement of not wanting to spend money dosent wash. Is the car competitive in A? Good question,at this time Jake has the best example in our division,(Mines a roach) and its pretty gross to watch as the Honda brigade spools up on lap 3 & slowly inches away. Will the car fit in B? again good question, 200# isnt going to change the balance to bad, & the wheels will help,We proved it at LRP. Thin tires= Less drag & more momentum. You just need to believe the car will stick.
As for mis leading statement of competitveness,please dont make stuff up, you know who you are. Prove im wrong & I wont be upset. Show us real results, or ccome north & we'll show you some fast 7's getting beat...
Dan
77 ITA RX7(Fast car)
77 ITA Miata(Slow Car)

[GEO46]

[quote]Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
[B] And unless "Volvo's from Hell" implies that they are illegal - which I DO NOT think you are saying, then the RX-7 is still not the cream of the crop in ITB.

Right? Smells like an ITB car to me in todays environment.

AB
[quote]

No, I certainly wasn't implying that the "Volvo's from Hell" were cheating.

Better Driver's, or better prepped car's. I don't know where the difference was. Except that as far as I am concerned, My car was prepped to the Nth degree. Hientz engine, custom cold air intake, Yaw carb. dialed in correctely on the dyno. Custom exhast also tweaked on the dyno. MSD ignition. G-ForceEngineering suspnsion. Yea, maybe could have done a "little" more with springs and shocks.

So I think I had a really well developed RX7. But usually couldn't run with two of the Volvo's.

Unfortuanatly, there was also an equal, or greater gap back to the rest of the "B" cars. This year however, a couple of the "other B cars" have stepped it up a notch, and are running quite close to the IT7 cars.

My opinion is still that the RX7 doesn't belong in ITA, perhaps in "b", I don't think that it would be an overdog. At Whrri though, I would still like to see it as a stand alone class.

Due to economics, we aren't seeing the turn out for IT7 as we have in the past couple of years, (myself included), but that's the same for all classes at WHRRI. Heck, ITA, and ITC are almost non-existant with only one or two cars per class.

Also, I am not a current SCCA member, so me sending something to them would be meaningless.

[GEO46]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
IMHO, not acceptable at all. If RX-7 counts in my area were not high enough to merit the IT7 separation, I would be SOL.

The IT7 class works great locally, this car needs help GLOBALLY.

AB

I agree, it's a great local solution. BUT, what to do about the underlying problem? Do we move the 12A 1st gen to iTB, or, do we petition the SCCA to reconize IT7 as a class for all 12A rotories as we do at WHRRI, or reconize IT7 as a 1st gen 12A only class? BTW, I forgot to mentention that WHRRI also reconizes rx2's and rx3's running a 12A as an IT7.

[Hotshoe]

Okay Dan. Here you go. I'll let the results speak for themselves. (I did not make these up)

Roebling Road ...... ITA 3rd

http://www.buccaneerregion.org/club/result...G7R7results.pdf

Roebling Road ..... ITA 1st

http://www.buccaneerregion.org/club/result...7R14results.pdf

VIR ........ITA would have been 3rd but I moved over and let two cars have there own race
http://www.ncrscca.com/Pdf/2004%20Results/...S/race3_sat.pdf

VIR ........ ITA 3rd was keeping pace with the leader but staying out of the race in ITA
http://www.ncrscca.com/Pdf/2004%20Results/...S/race3_sun.pdf

VIR .......ECR ...ITA 2nd .......started last I started and Don Vincini finished.

http://www.sedivracing.org/ECR/04Results/040321.pdf

VIR .........ITA 1st

http://www.ncrscca.com/Pdf/2004%20Results/...ies/MM04_G2.pdf

CMP........ITA 1st

http://www.ccrsolo2.org/forms/mm2004/results/529_4.pdf

CMP .......ITA 2nd Was side by side with P1 ITS at the line

http://www.ccrsolo2.org/forms/mm2004/results/530_4.pdf

Lowes ..... ITA 2nd Results are from Jeff Ryan another fast IT7

http://www.ccrsolo2.org/forms/jj2004/results/final.htm

Rick Thompson # 99 IT7

[JeffYoung]

Guys, I'm a slow ITS driver in the SEDiv, in my second season. Maybe I can offer a bit of objectivity here, at least as to my perception of the relative speeds/prep levels/driver talent (careful there I know) of the ITA and IT7 cars here. Note that:

1. I run with a run group of ITS/ITA/IT7. I race against the midpack ITA/IT7 cars, and the slow ITS cars.

2. I run VIR, Roebling, and CMP regularly. I have been to Barber, Road Atlanta and Lowe's (Charlotte Motor Speedway).

Running against the 7s and the ITAs, I can say the following:

1. Andy, NO ONE in the SEDiv that I know of, other than Charlie Taylor from Tennessee, runs an RX7 in ITA anymore. For whatever reason, the culture here is to run in IT7. As Rick says, he runs against ITA anyway, the only difference is the decal.

2. Rick T. and OTHERS (Don Vincini, Paul Perez, Grover McNair) routinely beat fast ITA cars here in the SEDiv. Rick's car is legal and overweight -- others have made sure of the legality in the past. I think there is a good body of knowledge on how to make RX7s fast in the SEDiv, and good driving talent.

3. I get the feeling that the CRXs and Acuras down here are not as well prepped as up North, although I don't want to be unfair to the fast ITA guys here. We do have OPM and Tom Fowler, and David Rhoades won the AARC a few years ago in an NC Region CRX.

4. So, and no offense to Jake et. al., I just think that because of Speedsource, Van Steenburg and others, and the number of years of seat time some guys have down here, the 1st Gen RX7s in my neck of the woods are faster than most. What does that tell me? That perhaps, and this is just a perhaps, with time intensive development and seat time, the car can still run up front in ITA anywhere in the country.

I don't think ITA/IT7s is broken and I really enjoy the racing against the CRXs and IT7s. From my vantage point, in this neck of the woods, moving the 7s to B would create a B overdog (Rick's track record at VIR is SEVEN SECONDS faster than the ITB record) and would remove a legitimate contender from my run group.

In fact, if some of the above is true and the IT7s really do have 150 crank hp, then my car at MAYBE 170 hp at the crank and 2560 should be in ITB....lol...yeah right, a V8 in ITB.

I'd hate to see a "nationwide fix" of a problem that only exists due to regional disparities.

[Banzai240]

Gotta LOVE these NO-WIN decisions we get to make!



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
In fact, if some of the above is true and the IT7s really do have 150 crank hp, then my car at MAYBE 170 hp at the crank and 2560 should be in ITB....lol...yeah right, a V8 in ITB.

Jeff... Hardly apples to apples... If you've ever driven with a "beer-keg" under the hood, you'd know that 150hp at the flywheel, but only 105lb/ft of torque, isn't exactly the same as 150hp on just about any other car...

By the way... I found this site when looking for this torque figure... (not sure what a 150hp 12A makes for torque, but I'm guessing it doesn't gain much over the stock figures...) Kind of an interesting history of the 12A...

A Tribute to Mazda: Past, Present, and Future

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 22, 2004).]

[dickita15]

Rick,
Thank you for providing the links to your results. It is very helpful in understanding your perspective. It is so hard for all of us to get a handle on actual performance of different cars at different prep level when we see only the actual results in our limited world. I can see from trying to sift thru this how easy it becomes in national racing for the RRB to rely heavily on runoffs result when evaluating performance.

In my case all I have for first hand knowledge is what I see here in the northeast and what I see at the ARRC. I will assume that in your world as in mine very few of the cars at a given race have both the car prep and driver talent to reach their full potential.

From the results you provided I see you sometimes race against Attila Luckacs and Jeff Ryan and your performance is on a par with them. Both of them raced IT7 at the ARRC and are very good. I think it would be safe to assume if you came to the ARRC you would be competitive with these two.

At the ARRC last year the top 8 ITA cars were within 1.5 seconds. 5 of these drivers are from the SE division. Unfortunately none of these know top-level cars were in the races you provided results for. Jeff and Attila were 2.1 to 3.7 seconds slower than these SE ITA cars at Atlanta.

From what I can determine Rick if you came to the ARRC with the performance you have demonstrated you would be in a great battle for the lead in IT7 but would be racing for 10th in ITA.

Dick Patullo

[Hotshoe]

Dick:

...You may be right about an RX7's performance at Road Atlanta. Because of all of the elevation changes it is at a great disadvantage to any car with more torque.

...I have only run Atlanta four times and my best lap was a mid 1:48. With some work (on my part) I could probably get down to a low 1:47 or high 1:46 with (drafting) help.

...I always see everyone doing comparisons to cars and lap times at Road Atlanta. Is that only because of the ARRC? Why not use Virginia International Raceway? We run a dual sanctioned race once a year (SARRC/MARRS) that draws a pretty big crowd of different cars and drivers. So why not use the times from those two races? The cars are on a level playing field as far as performance.

______ Rick _____

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
...I have only run Atlanta four times and my best lap was a mid 1:48. With some work (on my part) I could probably get down to a low 1:47 or high 1:46 with (drafting) help.

Rick that does not sound very far off. Jeff and Attila did 1:47.9 and 1:47.7 in their IT7 cars. But Serra did a 1:43.9 in a Integra.

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
...I always see everyone doing comparisons to cars and lap times at Road Atlanta. Is that only because of the ARRC? Why not use Virginia International Raceway?

Yes the ARRC guarentees that some of the best cars will be there for compairison. I would love to have data from other tracks but we need events where we are comparing know well prepped well driven cars. It looks to me that you, Jeff Ryan and Attila Lukacs are great examples in the SE of good IT7 cars but we need to compare you Tom Fowler, Alex Mureson, Adam Richman, Bowie Gray or Ken Mersereau. All SE guys who are proven quick at the ARRC in ITA.
dick

[Quickshoe]

Rick,

So even with drafting you 'might' be 2 seconds a lap off of the fastest of the ITA cars! That is HUGE! See, you need to come on the "Rx7 needs to be in B" side of the fence--no matter how successful you are with the A cars in your area.

To re-emphasize the variation in regional results it was earlier posted that Rick runs 7 seconds faster than the ITB lap record...no wonder the B guys there wouldn't want him. Nor would it be logical for him to think he belongs in B. However, out here, at WSIR running 7 seconds faster than the B record would be faster than the ASedan, T1 and GT4 records! So when I hear 7 seconds faster than B...I think no way. Just as when you (rick) hear "can't keep up in A...belongs in B" it is logical for you to think that everyone else must suck and/or their cars aren't prepared.

The majority of the regions will find that a 7 in B won't upset the apple cart. For those regions where it will, hopefully the 7's will stay in IT7!

[Hotshoe]

Dick:

....I fail to see where Road Atlanta should set the standard. I gave you race results from CMP where I was almost first in ITS right beside the current ITS Champion.

...I've seen it mentioned in this forum time and time again where some cars do better than others at certain tracks. And I know this to be very true.

...Road Atlanta is probably the worst track for my car as far as corner exit speed because of turn 1 turn 5 and the last turn before the bridge. Two of those turns are so slow that it is hard for me to get enough traction to get in the throttle hard enough to get a good run off the corner. These two corners are a piece of cake for a front wheel drive car like a CRX,

...So if you want to compare apples to apples you need to use more than just one tracks results.

......Rick......

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
....I fail to see where Road Atlanta should set the standard.
...So if you want to compare apples to apples you need to use more than just one tracks results...

I could not agree more. the more tracks we look at the better, but I need to compare the best rx7's with the best Ita cars. The 5 SE guys I listed are know fast ITA cars.
I would love any data that show what you 3 fast IT7 cars can do against these 5 fast ITA cars and every track.

and rick thanks again for being so open. most of those who disagree with me are being very criptic.
dick patullo

[lateapex911]

And while Road Atlanta serves the purpose of this discussion by providing a common ground for the best drivers and the best cars, it adds an element of legitimacy to the results due to the fact that if you run at the front, you are LIKELY to be looked over in the tech shed. (Agreed, even that is no guarantee of legality, but it does have an effect on who shows and what they bring).

Also, RA does hurt the 7 to be sure, but then so does Watkins Glen, Lime Rock,
Road America, Mosport, Beaver Run, Sears Point and Laguna Seca. (All could be considered "classic road courses" and draw drivers regardless, due to their enjoyable layouts.)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
4. So, and no offense to Jake et. al., I just think that because of Speedsource, Van Steenburg and others, and the number of years of seat time some guys have down here, the 1st Gen RX7s in my neck of the woods are faster than most. What does that tell me? That perhaps, and this is just a perhaps, with time intensive development and seat time, the car can still run up front in ITA anywhere in the country.

Jeff, I appreciate your points, but this one strikes ma as contradictive.

Correct, you have a lot of RX-7 driving and develpoment talent in the SE. And the RX-7s are probably faster than most.

But...even in the "hotbed" of RX-7 speed and talent, do we see them getting whipped in a track right in the middle of the SE?

The fastest race lap last year was actually set by Jim Susko, from Ohio. He was nearly 4 seconds a lap back.

I agree that if this IS a regional issue, then it is a case of the slow(er) RX-7 guys getting on the stick and getting the job done. But I'm trying to convince myself that it is only a regional issue, and so far, the results are not convincing, and the empirical data is in total support of the known credible results that have common elements.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:

The majority of the regions will find that a 7 in B won't upset the apple cart. For those regions where it will, hopefully the 7's will stay in IT7!

This I disagree with. If the car *should* be in ITB, then it should. Upsetting the apple cart in a specific Region doesn't bother me IF the cars *should* be together.

Let me explain. Take a mid-pack ITS car. It ISN'T OK to class that car in ITA just beacuse it can't run upfront - or upset the apple cart. Wrong is wrong.

Conversly, reclassing the fastest ITC car into a 'slow' ITB region is wrong, even it it could win. Wrong is still wrong.

On the track that the IT7 record is 7 seconds better than the ITB record. Tell me about that. From someone who thinks that the 12A RX-7 is an ITB car with weight and 6" wheels, what defines this disparity?

Tell me the records for ITS, ITA, ITC and SM for comparison. The fastest RX-7 on the planet or an average ITB field - or a legitimate case of a track REALLY favoring a car?

Help me understand 7 seconds..

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[dickita15]

class its ita itb it7 sm
5/11/02 2:17 2:21 2:23 2:17 2:23
11/2/02 2:15 2:21 2:25 2:22 2:23
5/10/03 2:15 2:20 2:26 2:22 2:24
5/11/03 2:16 2:19 2:26 2:22 2:23
3/22/03 2:16 2:23 2:26 2:21 2:22
3/21/04 2:15 2:20 2:27 2:21 2:21
5/8/04 2:14 2:20 2:25 2:21 2:22
5/9/04 2:12 2:21 2:26 2:21 2:21

Well I went thru the ncrscca websight to look at times from VIR. I learned a few things from this exercise.
First this is very hard to look at data from all kinds of places and try do draw conclusions. I can see why decisions such as this are not easy for the ITAC.
Second that VIR is a very good track for Rx7’s I guess I need to make a trip next year.
Next Rick you have got this track down pat. I am impressed. I think all the fast time in IT7 are yours.
There are names I recognize in Its and Itb. Kip set some of the times in S and Sam Moore set some in B. I do not know any of the ITA cars.

Well I have to admit that VIR is very good to Rx7’s and with 6” wheels and weight the still probably win there in Itb.

Dick Patullo


[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited October 24, 2004).]

[moto62]

Originally posted by dickita15:
....I guess I need to make a trip next year....Well I have to admit that VIR is very good to Rx7’s and with 6” wheels and weight the still probably win there in Itb.

Dick Patullo

So what do you say Dick. A trip to VIR in the schedule for next season! I'm in.
I say move the 7 to B, 6" wheels, add a hundred lbs(educated guess) and have at it. It won't be an overdog by any means but at least it would have a shot for a win. Get rid of IT7 since it was merely added to give the 7 somewhere to race. ITB could be the new home of the 7 where it should nicely fit in. Let's say the move did happen. There is a slight chance that I could be lured back from the dark side and back into a wonderful 7. Going head to head with Volvos from hell and Opel GT's, whoooo hoooo. Could be a hoot.
Ray

[lateapex911]

So to distill the results from VIR, I get:

In ITA Adam Richman was there once, but it rained, still he was 8 seconds faster than IT7, which is opposite my experiences...my best runs are always in the wet/slimy.

Anyway:
ITA 2:19.1 by James Evans in CRX, some 2:20s and 2:21s as well.
ITB 2:23.8 by Sam Moore in a Volvo, and some 2:24s and 2:25s
IT7 there was one 2:17.6 by Thompson, but the same day Vincini, who is ussually just tenths behind Thompson was 3 seconds back. In addition, it is the only time Thompson has broken 2:20 that I could find. It's almost 3 seconds in front of all times he has before or since, and I wonder what the circumstances were behind that time.

Other than that, the IT7 time is 2:21.0 by Thompson, and Vicini with others (Lukas) tenths behind.

So, ITA is 2 seconds clear of IT7 (if you consider the record an abberation), and IT7 is 2.7 seconds clear of ITB, on lap times of almost 2.5 minutes

Adjusted to a shorter track of course, those differences would close.

I also looked at Barber results as well, although the track hasn't seen much action yet. No "players" in B have run there yet as I can tell.

ITA: 1:46.7 by Reynolds in a CRX
ITB: 1:50.0 by Deathmontarge (sp?) in a Swift
IT7: 1:48.9 by Lukas in an RX-7

SO ITA is 2.2 seconds clear of IT7, which is 1.1. seconds clear of ITB.

Tough to draw any super solid conclusions from these two tracks, as the ITA "names" have been in short supply at both, and ITB hasn't been well represented at Barber.

It does appear that the RX-7 is favored at VIR, but I wonder if it is really as far ahead of B as the the numbers indicate. Throw out the one RX-7 time, and the difference is a more reasonable 2.7 seconds ahead, on a long track.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Hotshoe]

Jake:

...Your analogy is amusing. By your standard fastest lap wins the race? I always thought it was consistency.