ITA - IT7 - ITB at the ARRC

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rick Thompson wrote:

For Jake's Sake:
....I hope Brian Dobson shows up in IT7. He will be the one to beat. Then "maybe" Jake will get the idea of what a "FAST" RX7 is.
....And Jake, while your there, ask him and Sam Henderson what they think about the move you want to make.

___Rick Thompson #99 IT7

The top 3 ITA cars just qualified at an AVERAGE lap time of 1:43.352.

The top 3 IT7 cars averaged a 1:47.697.

TQ's? Stretch at a 1:43.087 in ITA
Dobson at a 1:47.469 in IT7

So there is your wish. OVER a 4 second delta. ITB TQ? 1:48.911.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Boswoj]

Wow -

Now it really IS starting to sound like some 6" wheels and a small amount of weight would make a 1st gen a natural ITB fit!

[tdw6974]

Originally posted by Boswoj:
Wow -

Now it really IS starting to sound like some 6" wheels and a small amount of weight would make a 1st gen a natural ITB fit!

The move is fine but I hope we can Keep the 7" wheels.

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The move is fine but I hope we can Keep the 7\" wheels.</font>

*That* won't happen, I'll betcha. There's just no way that I see the ITAC and CRB approving equipment adjustmetns specific to a particular car.

If you want ITB, you'll have to take it with 6" wheels. At that point you can start campaigning for 7" wheels for the entire class. - GA

[gran racing]

Isn't buying 6" wheels worth the price to move to B? And of course a little extra money going towards led.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[tdw6974]

Must be you guys don't have budget monitors(wife) Lets see 10 Panasports @ 180.00 12 Diamonds @70.00 might be able to sneek in the garage a few at time unless the UPS guy rats me out. Heck the weight is free $7.00 a pop at the Church harvest suppers we got that solved although the last scales we where on said we had about 150 lbs. to spare

[Hotshoe]

Andy:

.....You guys like to use only the results where the RX7 is at a disadvantage. Like you choose to ignore the fact that Road Atlanta is a TORQUE oriented track.
.....I gave you results showing how an RX7 stacks up in the SEDiv. And further more I invited you to come to CMP sometime with your ITS car and I will show you myself.
.....Do as you wish, but, I'm convinced that a person with tunnel vision should not be in a decision making capacity. So I shall consider the source (as you did with David) and choose C.

Name is not important ... pertinent facts to be ignored, Use only what suits your purpose.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rick,

Come on. Maybe we should define each track so that we can take all your data in the proper context. Torque track, HP track, Momentum track, etc. That would help everyone understand your conclusions better.

The ITS RX-7 is down 30+ WHP and 100ft/lbs to the E36 BMW but the times aren't ANYwhere near the delta you have in ITA/IT7. Why would you say that is?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[gran racing]

$2,640(+) just in wheels? WOW! I'll have to have your budget monitor talk to mine.

Try thinking about it a bit differently though. You shouldn't have too much of a problem selling the wheels on eBay. Then you buy some panasports for dry tires and the diamond for rains. You certainly don't need 22 wheels. (Yes, I'm sure there are advantages)

Also think about the money you spend on your car to get faster. I'd rather spend money on wheels and then be able to compete for a win in ITB versus spending money on many other things and still have no shot if the fast ITA cars show up.


------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[ddewhurst]

ARRC IT7 qualifyinfg results

1st 1:47.469

2nd 1:47.808

3rd 1:47.815

4th 1:49.147

5th 1:49.180

6th 1:49.444

7th 1:49.472

8th 1:49.856

Andy, would you like to take a run at explaining the difference of 2.4 seconds between the time of the 1st place qualifying time & the 8th place qualifying time. Hell ya, I know the 1st place qualifying time was completed by a car not from the NorthEast. Therefore it must be _ _ _ _ _ _ _.

Have Fun
David

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...1st place qualifying time [in IT7} was completed by a car not from the NorthEast. Therefore it must be _ _ _ </font>

Uh, a first-gen RX-7? What do I win?

[Andy Bettencourt]

David,

What the HECK are you getting at???? I have NO IDEA what you are asking me or the point you are TRYING to make.

Serra (Northeast Integra) won ITA with a new track record from what I understand.

Can you explain the difference in the top ITA times vs. the top IT7 times? I can...4 seconds!!!

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[ddewhurst]

Andy, when you fall off your soap box I hope you don't hurt yourself. Brian qualified 1st & Jake qualified 8th 2.4 seconds back. How come the fastest IT7 1st gen RX-7 from the NorthEast is 2.4 seconds slower than the fastest IT7 car in qualifying ?

I can not ask you (Andy) my question any other way than I have above within this post.

Have Fun
David

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
How come the fastest IT7 1st gen RX-7 from the NorthEast is 2.4 seconds slower than the fastest IT7 car in qualifying ?

David

Um....cuz he's faster??? duh...

David, don't make me waste time to go back and quote myself...I've stated MANY, many, times that I didn't base my comments on my own results. I have provided empirical data a zillion times regarding the relative merits of the 7 versus the ITA leaders.

Do you really think that ANY legal RX-7 will be at the front after 20 laps with Serra or Stretch?? On paper it's doubtful, and the results are in synch.

Let's look at it another way.... a driver at the track for only the second time put 4 seconds a lap on guys who have a ton of miles there...



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Jake, I didn't say anything about the 7 & ITA. I asked a simple question of Andy about 2.4 seconds because people were tooting their honrs about the legality of fast cars if they were not from the NorthEast.

NUFF said on this subject
David

[dickita15]

I am really not sure where this northeast is evil thing started. correct me if i am wrong but my recolection of how we got to this point in the thread was. our observations were that rx7's were not in the same league as the fast ITA cars. then we looked for data from other areas. The SE data is important because there is a vibrant IT7 class people have kept developing their cars. There is not a lot of insentive to spend a lot on rx7's up here with all the fast acura's. we went to the ARRC last year in part to measure ourselves against the competitive SE cars. my conclusion was that the state of prep of rx7's is very good in the SE, but they were still no match for good ITA cars. Then Rick T sent results showing very strong performance, but none where he raced against top notch ITA cars.
so why are we evil
dick patullo

[Tom Donnelly]

Dick,

Y'all aren't evil. Y'all are just yankees!
We're still a little riled about y'all buring Atlanta.

Tom

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Jake, I didn't say anything about the 7 & ITA. I asked a simple question of Andy about 2.4 seconds because people were tooting their honrs about the legality of fast cars if they were not from the NorthEast.

NUFF said on this subject
David

Ahhhhhh.....NOW I get it! I guess I need to be a better mind reader.... or a better "between the lines reader"!

Here's the jist of it ...
The (other) thread was looking for opinions relevent to the move of the 1st gen RX-7 from A to B as I asserted that it wasn't competitive in A. I gave empirical data to show the gross inequalities.

You wanted to know my times, results etc...I gave them to you but stated they were not entirely relevent.

Rick T commented that the car was fine in A, and he was beating A and S cars where he was. We attempted to put the results he pointed us to, and others, in perspective...who was he beating...etc. Comments were made that the he had never raced at Atlanta at the ARRCs, and therefore, it is inescapable that the confidence in the cars legality would be lower that if he had survived an ARRC semi teardown. That is NOT saying that the car is anything BUT 100 % legal...it is only saying that it is not a known data point...

We were able to look at a lot of results and see that while Rick is "the man" in SE IT7, he is closely followed (and beaten by, occasionaly) a few others. As some of the others DO come to Atlanta, we can draw reasonable conclusions on how Rick would fare...

And the result?? Same as before....he would be off the ITA pace.

(As a side note....even I passed a few CRXs in qualifying....doesn't mean I should be in their class though....)

Now a couple points.....

The IT7s were well driven by guys who clearly know the track, and they are certainly not short on power. I have homework to do in that area, to be sure.

Perhaps RA isn't particularly favorable to the RX-7....but it is a classic road course...of which there are many more. It is in no way unique. Actually, it is fairly standard compared to many of the classic road courses nationwide. I am not sure if torque is the only item needed there though...that straight is reaaaallllly long.

Second...lets not put TOO much faith in the thinking that any car that survives the tech shed at the ARRCs is legal. The post race inspection techniques are well known, and anyone who fails is a fool. But the inspection is by no means complete, and therefore it can not be used to claim a cars absoulute legality.

However, it's the best we've got.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Andy, when you fall off your soap box I hope you don't hurt yourself. Brian qualified 1st & Jake qualified 8th 2.4 seconds back. How come the fastest IT7 1st gen RX-7 from the NorthEast is 2.4 seconds slower than the fastest IT7 car in qualifying ?

I can not ask you (Andy) my question any other way than I have above within this post.

Have Fun
David

Actually David, that IS the ifrst time you asked the question. When the next one pops up, just ask it.

Jake said it better above but I will slow it down. Nobody ever said Jake was the fasted RX-7 in the country - nor did anyone say that they were using his results EXCLUSIVELY to base their opinions.

The issue at hand is whether the RX-7 is more suited for IA or ITB. Looking at these limited results, what would your opinion be? Yes David, that is a question for you.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[RSTPerformance]

ARRC IT7 qualifyinfg results

1st 1:47.469
2nd 1:47.808
3rd 1:47.815
4th 1:49.147
5th 1:49.180
6th 1:49.444
7th 1:49.472
8th 1:49.856

FYI ITB results Qualifying
1st 1:48.91 Audi
2nd 1:48.93 Audi
3rd 1:49.6 VW
4th 1:49.8 Volvo
5th 1:50's VW

With those numbers the RX7's would have dominated in ITB. I am not a scientist but do whatever it takes to slow the car down about 2 seconds (on this track) and you have a good fit. It would be eisier to slow the car down than to make it go 5 seconds faster!

Stephen