ITA - IT7 - ITB at the ARRC

[ddewhurst]

***Looking at these limited results, what would your opinion be? Yes David, that is a question for you.***

Andy, looking at your limited results you may not be making the decision that the majority of 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers want.

My judgement would be that maybe you should share the info on the number of letters you have received relative to what Divisions/Regions want the 1st gen RX-7 reclassed to ITB.

My conclusion without organizing the data from this site is that you folks in the NortEast should do just as you please (but don't impact the entire country) in the NortEast. I don't see a lot of letters from other Divisions asking for the 1st gen RX-7 to be reclassed to ITB.

I am happy racing within the CenDiv & MidWest Divisions with my partially converted 1st gen from Spec-7 to ITA. I can race ITA or IT7 depending on which event I enter. Winning is not everything & some of us know we can not win under certain situations. Chances are I could not beat Jake at the race track. Does that mean I should stay home.

Have Fun
David

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
Dick,
Y'all aren't evil. Y'all are just yankees!
We're still a little riled about y'all buring Atlanta.
Tom

that part I get. a friend of mine who moved north from NC said that untill he was 12 years old he thought yankee was half a word.
dick

[Greg Amy]

I am flabbergasted and confused by a driver writing so vehemantly AGAINST getting his car classified to a lower class...

Just don't understand. Where's the advantage? Do you place a stigma on being in ITB? Are you just worried about having to buy 6" wheels? Do you just like getting your butt whooped?

Don't understand...<shrug>

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***Looking at these limited results, what would your opinion be? Yes David, that is a question for you.***

Andy, looking at your limited results you may not be making the decision that the majority of 1st gen RX-7 owners/drivers want.

My judgement would be that maybe you should share the info on the number of letters you have received relative to what Divisions/Regions want the 1st gen RX-7 reclassed to ITB.

My conclusion without organizing the data from this site is that you folks in the NortEast should do just as you please (but don't impact the entire country) in the NortEast. I don't see a lot of letters from other Divisions asking for the 1st gen RX-7 to be reclassed to ITB.

I am happy racing within the CenDiv & MidWest Divisions with my partially converted 1st gen from Spec-7 to ITA. I can race ITA or IT7 depending on which event I enter. Winning is not everything & some of us know we can not win under certain situations. Chances are I could not beat Jake at the race track. Does that mean I should stay home.

Have Fun
David

That's funny, I've read your post three times and I don't see a direct answer to the question.

Oh ya, if you aren't on the CRB or ITAC, I'm not sure HOW you would see the letters.

David, given what you know about the cars, do you think it's more suited as an ITA car currently or as an ITB car with weight and 6" wheels? Simple question really.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[JeffYoung]

Greg, to answer your question, I think some of it is "car pride." Rick enjoys running in A, just like I like running my slow S car in S. To be told your car is too slow for the class it is in hurts a bit, whether this thinking is rational or not is a different story. I certainly take pride in racing an old "S" car and have no desire to see it moved down to A even though I get smoked by E36s and 2nd Gen RX7s.

Second, and this is not to be understated. We have a REALLY good ITS-ITA-IT7 run group down here at all the SEDiv tracks I go to (Barber, CMP, Roebling, VIR and Lowe's). The group of drivers is a good bunch, and we seem to for the most part all enjoy racing with each other.

Moving the 7 to ITB would break up our group, and some of the friendly, competitive battles that have gone on over the years would end.

Guys, I know there is empirical data from other places (although I tend to agree with Rick that the disparity at Road Atlanta is an anomaly) showing that the 7 would be a good fit in B. I just wish that before you guys started considering that, you came down to the SEDiv and watched an ITS/ITA/IT7 race at VIR, Roebling or CMP. I will tell you that the 7 does NOT look overmatched.

Do appreciate the depth of thinking, results gathering and consideration going on here though. If the 7 goes to B, it definitely will be a well thought out choice.

[gran racing]

Jeff, I hear what you are saying about building relationships / battles with drivers in the other groups you run with. I have a certain MR2 that I have developed an ongoing battle with in ITA (and good friendship as well). Yes, I will miss our many qualifying times within .05 of a second of each other. He always tells me that I’d rather finish in 10th place and be in front of him versus 2nd only losing to him. Of course I’ll miss this now that I’m going to ITB. (I’ve gotten over this and continue doing my happy dance!)

As far as your pride issue…I have to say I feel totally opposite from you here. I’m really looking forward to racing in ITB with cars that are much closely matched to mine. Getting beat by cars that start with 30 more hp and have a very close weight or CRXs that have similar HP but weigh a lot less compared to my car isn’t much fun. What I am looking forward to is having the opportunity to prove my driving ability against similar cars. This is where I would think pride really come in. Maybe it’ll just prove that I’m a sub par driver or an average driver. But I also have a shot of showing that I’m a very good driver. I can’t imagine you not having more fun having a chance to be a front runner in a class.

I do appreciate you explaining your feelings why you don’t want the RX7 moved to a “lower” class. You are the first person I’ve heard express any reasons why they don’t want their car moved to B. Of course it still puzzles me just a bit.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[JeffYoung]

Dave, thanks for the post. I share your sentiments exactly on the run group issue -- having a good group to race iwth is what club racing is all about.

To clarify, I run a slow (its driver more than anything) S car, a TR8. I run in Ricky's run group, though and can attest to the fact that he and others in 7 are plenty fast for the group.

My feelings on moving down are that my car is an S car, and I like running with the "fastest" group. Vain I guess, but that's where I am with it.

In any event, thanks for the post. Come down south sometime and run with us. I've never raced against a Prelude.

[ddewhurst]

Andy posted

***Looking at these limited results, what would your opinion be? Yes David, that is a question for you.***

David posted

***My conclusion without organizing the data from this site is that you folks in the NortEast should do just as you please (but don't impact the entire country) in the NortEast. I don't see a lot of letters from other Divisions asking for the 1st gen RX-7 to be reclassed to ITB.***

If you can't figure this out maybe you have problems understanding what people are saying in some of the letters you receive. Post the number of letters & Division location of those who desire a change to ITB & those who do not wish to be reclassed to ITB. That should be a quite simple task.

O-Shit, this is the secrete car club of America & you are not allowed to share secrete information.

Andy, what YOU & the other ITAC folks do is your business just like what the CRB does is their business. It seems that any input you receive that is not on base with your info or thoughts is considered a flyer & you throw the info out or tell the writter he/she is wrong. Change the 1sy gen RX-7 to whatever cxlass makes the folks in the NorthEast happy. I wll race my 1st gen RX-7 & I WILL NOT race the car in ITB............

Have Fun
David

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Andy, what YOU & the other ITAC folks do is your business just like what the CRB does is their business. It seems that any input you receive that is not on base with your info or thoughts is considered a flyer & you throw the info out or tell the writter he/she is wrong.

What a complete crock of $#!@....

EVERY letter that comes through the ITAC passes to us from the CRB, and EVERY letter that passes through the CRB gets printed in Fastrack each month once it's been processed. WHAT is so secret about that?

You can go back and look over the past two or three years and count up any number of letters you wish. If you do, you'll notice several previous letters asking that the RX-7 (and the MR-2 for that matter), be moved to ITB.

At the current time, our agenda has 5 letters on the books requesting that the RX-7 be reclassified to ITB,
[list]IT 04-054 - 1 request, Glen Region
[list]

All asking that the car be moved. We've not received a letter to my recollection opposing this idea, but then, it's never gone out for membership input, so the general membership doesn't really have a reason to write opposing it.

That's more letters than we recieve on most subjects, including crank pulleys, shock rules, etc...

Additionally, we get informatition from other sources as well, which includes from the various tracks we attend across the country. Not all information we gather has to come in the form of an official letter when it concerns trying to understand a situation.

There is no "secret" going on here, everything is published as it is decided on, and the communication with the membership has never been better...

Seems there are a few here that will never be satisfied with anything short of setting up the meetings in their living room or inviting them to personally participate in the con-calls...

This matter, like all others, is receiving a HIGH level of attention, because people are interested in making the RIGHT decision. Ultimately, that decision may not be the one that is right for some of you, but it will be made in what those making it believe is in the best interests of IT and the Club.

If you see it differently than that, well, that's an issue you'll have to just deal with.



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Andy posted


***My conclusion without organizing the data from this site is that you folks in the NortEast should do just as you please (but don't impact the entire country) in the NortEast. I don't see a lot of letters from other Divisions asking for the 1st gen RX-7 to be reclassed to ITB.***

If you can't figure this out maybe you have problems understanding what people are saying in some of the letters you receive. ...... Change the 1sy gen RX-7 to whatever cxlass makes the folks in the NorthEast happy. I wll race my 1st gen RX-7 & I WILL NOT race the car in ITB............

Have Fun
David

David, if every letter they got was as cryptic as your comments can be, they would probably be more than a little confused....but it is entertaining..I'll say that!

Andys question was:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> \"David, given what you know about the cars, do you think it's more suited as an ITA car currently or as an ITB car with weight and 6\" wheels? Simple question really.\" </font>

As best as I can read it, your answer is that you will NOT race your car in ITB.

So, am I to infer that you think that the car belongs, due to it's attributes, in ITA??



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

The original post by Andy compared the RX-7 to ITA and ITB at the ARRCs...

I find the ITB class interesting..I have a bit of good knowledge of the ITB pole and outside pole sitters, and I think that we have only seen a glimpse of the Audis potential. For those who don't know them, the brothers Blethen (Raymond and Steven) are young guys who work hard on their cars but are more than a little budget challenged. These cars have never seen a part that has been within a mile of machine shop, and a "new" part to these guys are ones that are "new" to that particular car! "Used" is the mantra...

I worry what those UPS trucks could do given proper resources ....a good balance and blueprinted motor, a new cam with full lobes, a nicely done head, and so on.

And don't think that they are just cars that excel on the straights...the cool Canadians have sluggfests with the Audis at places like NHIS, which is decidedly not a long straightaway course.

So, what I'm saying is that the bar in ITB is potentially higher than what we've seen so far. I wouldn't be surprised to see them run 1:47s at Road Atlanta.

If it happens, will they get a PCA??

Given that the RX-7 guys from the SE are the cream of the crop, what would a race between them, (on 6" rims), and the Audis (with a good motor) look like? It looks pretty close to me.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JeffYoung]

Jake, good points.

[mustanghammer]

Change the 1sy gen RX-7 to whatever cxlass makes the folks in the NorthEast happy. I wll race my 1st gen RX-7 & I WILL NOT race the car in ITB............

David,

What is your problem? Do you think that we can pick up more chicks with an ITA car than we can with ITB car? Are your friends more imppressed by 7" wide wheels?

First off I am from the MIDWEST division and I want the 1st gen RX7 moved to B. So this isn't a North East issue. Because I am in the Midwest I would have to race against Chris Albin in ITB. So don't accuse me of looking for easy wins or wanting to an over-dog. I have been on track with Chris alot and I know him best by his tail lights.

Currently we have IT7 in MiDiv and it is fun class. All of the RX7 guys I have raced with in the Midwest are first class on and off the track. I really appreciate the work put in by Mike Trier and others to make this class happen. However, there is no way that we can expect IT7 to grow like SM or even increase in the numbers necessary to sustain the class over the next 5 years. I am in this for the long haul, I don't see IT as a stepping stone to production and I want competition.

A move to ITB means that the variety of cars I can race with goes up. It also means that as some cars fall from favor new ones will take their place. You could argue that this is what is happening in ITA right now. But at present there doesn't seem to be a real way to compete with old and new ITA cars as it stands now.

Others have suggested that the RX7 can be competitive in ITA. They point to race tracks were they beat ITA cars. In the Midwest we can do that too - St Louis is an excellent RX7 track. However, Mid America Motorplex, Heartland Park, Hallet, and Memphis are not RX7 friendly. Of the tracks I listed which ones are more like the classic road course? No, it isn't St Louis.

While 2005 will mark only my third year in club racing and IT I have been around this sport for along time. I have worked for good quality RX7 drivers like Charlie Clark and I have seen them attempt to keep up with CRX's with very well developed cars on this division's tracks. Trust me it didn't happen then and it ain't happening now.

Thanks Jake for getting this issue out.

Letter is forth coming. Get it done.



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Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

[ITSRX7]

New ITA track record set at the ARRC:

1:43.368

New IT7 track record set at the ARRC:

1:47.110

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[lateapex911]

Interesting...

Anthony told me after the race that he saw a 1:42.8 on his Stack data aq.

Weren't there some "issues" with T&S??

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITS5GB]

I'm currently building an IT7/ITB? car right now. I'm planning on having it ready for next season. What are the odds? Should I order 6" or 7" wheels.
I have run a GSL-SE the last few years in ITS. I must say that at my home track(Waterford Hills)it still is pretty competetive(podium finishes in 12 to 16 car fields). In fact, I regularly duke it out with an E36 that went to the ARRC and Q10th, F15th. Does that mean I could take it to the ARRC and expect the same? I think not.I still love racing my little first gen ITS car and look forward to getting the 12a finished. If you look at results from CenDiv and Waterford(where IT7 and ITB are in the same run group, and the two classes are very well mixed), I would conclude that ITB is the place to be. Just my 2 cents from a relative rookie(3yrs).
Greg Blastic
*just another 40 something guy trying to have some fun*