Lay it on the line - Rear Wheel HP - ITS 2nd gen

[David Haskell]

Hey Rob give me a call too!! I was also wondering how to get that much HP. How built that motor??? What dyno??? Thanks in advance for your speedy reply, David Haskell

[jhill]

Rob:

You scoundrel- So that's where my 2000 season motor has been for the past 2 years!

I've been looking for that everywhere.

I'm next in line as soon as Mr Haskell gets through with you . . .er, ah, I mean, gets a chance to talk to you.

Jeff

[ITSROTARY7]

What gear is everyone using when they dyno. There can be substantial differences dyno in 3rd gear compared to 4th gear. If you are going to compare dyno runs you need to check this first.

[Joe Craven]

NASA did a dyno comparison of the 12A motors in the late 90s when their Pro7 program was going strong. Various builders brought their engines and the winner was a higher mileage junkyard motor that made 140+ hp with a stock exhaust manifold. The point of the article is that a $200 junkyard motor from pick your part in California could be faster than a pro built $3K motor.

Rotories seem to get faster as they age, and go the fastest just before they blow up.

[GEO46]

Off subject, but aimed at Joe Craven. You don't happen to also be a member on a Capri email list do ya?

GEO 46

[Joe Craven]

Hey Geo, former ITA Capri racer - it's me. I'm testing the other side and bringing out my 71 ITB Capri to SCCA. I now have a 73 PS3 Capri and 83 GTI CUP which I continue to race with NASA. Looking forward to the SCCA experience and friendly racin

Originally posted by GEO46:
Off subject, but aimed at Joe Craven. You don't happen to also be a member on a Capri email list do ya?

GEO 46

[GEO46]

Good to hear from ya Joe. Yep, I'm the former ITA Capri racer. To bad there isn't more comprehesive sites out there for the capri racers like there is for us Mazda racers.

Good luck, have fun, and keep the shiney side up:-)

GEO46

[paulydee]

I have to jump in on this subject. I have been working on RX-7 street cars for a few years now. I have yet to see a street non turbo pull more than 156RWHP. The setup was performance intake, Racing Beat headers, presilencer, 50MM catback.

How are you guys reaching 175+ when you can't do anything else to the motors except exhaust, intake, and removing the aux port sleeves?

It seems to me that an ECU remap is required but what else could you possibly do to get those big numbers?

Paul D'Angelo
Iridium Racing

[MrMoody]

OK here's my $0.02 for what it's worth . . .

Max HP numbers don't really tell the whole story. You have to look at the HP and TQ curves. Where does each motor make the peak torque? Where does peak HP come into play? Which is better for the type of driving you're doing?

Here's a good article about this:
http://ubermensch.org/Cars/Technical/hp-tq

[ITSRX7]

Don't know what to tell you Paul...

Our motor (171 rwhp) is a boneyard 70,000 mile unit that has all the legal external mods + a custom straight pipe from the collector back. Made a Callaway Cars (Corvette guys) out of Stainless with welded and trimmed U and L bends. It is smoooooooth.

Other than Mobil 1 in the crankcase, what you see is what you get. Now about the 180+ hp quotes, even Speedsource hasn't seen that yet.

And how about the 275 crank HP (225 + RWHP) Bimmerworld is quoting on a cost no object 325 I6, you make the call...

AB

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited May 31, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited May 31, 2002).]

[C. Ludwig]

ITSRX7, can you "feel" any difference in the two motors? What about the plotted torque curves? Does one have a fatter curve? What year is the junkyard motor? Thanks!

Chris

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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[ITSRX7]

Both are 89's. Can't feel the difference due to different final drives.

It is only 7.5hp - tourque curves are similar and very fat. For a Wankel!

AB

[BrianB]

Andy,
I'm sure that the exhaust tuning and general optimizing you're doing will find that 7.5hp+!
The question is this.Can these cars find enough to be competitive with well tuned latter BMWs? I watched the Memorial day weekend races at Limerock.As you know, BMWs qualified on the front row and led some very good RX-7s around from start to finish. They didn't run away with the race, but then again, they were never really challenged. I would quess that there could be at least a 30hp disparity between these cars. Whereas,SCCA doesn't gaurrantee the competitiveness of any car in this class, do you think they've classified a "ringer"into what is a fairly competitive field of cars?
BB

[ITSRX7]

My personal feeling is that the development of the E36 325 will show itself to be a dominant car this year. The BMW must weigh 180 lbs more but top of the line engines show 175 rwhp for the Mazda's and 225 rwhp for the BMW's (quote from BimmerWorld rep). That is a real large gap.

I was on the National Stock Class Advisory Board for Solo 2 and I know how to look at cars objectively for classification.

I have written a letter to HQ about my concern with some tangible data but until these cars start dominating across the country, you won't see a change - and maybe shouldn't.

AB

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited June 02, 2002).]

[C. Ludwig]

Everyone (including myself) keeps saying, "when someone finally develops a BMW they'll dominate". It's not like I get out alot or have done this for a great length of time but I've never seen a 325 dominate. Evidently there are a few in the NE as the stories pop up from time to time. But as ITSRX7 kinda hinted at, when RX7s and 240s continue to dominate the ARRC (and the BMWs barely make a showing) it's hard to argue an unfair advantage. Just my $.02 and sorry for helping to highjack the thread.

Chris

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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[ITSRX7]

No problems Chris! It's a fact. If the specs say one thing and the results say another, we have a poor argument.

Luckily with the way we can look at the results for Road Racing, you can see fast lap as well as finishing position - so this takes a lot of guesswork out of the equation.

There are some real fast E36's here in the NE. I think you will see them hit the big events. The Import Challenge Series here at Lime Rock has some big prizes (including a seat in a Touring car at the following years race) and the fast guys and cars are in the mix.

As the BMW guys get the suspensions dialed in, the power will be more evident. But I still submit that 50 rwhp does not equal 180lbs...only time will tell. Keep on fighting!

AB

[Greg Amy]

Originally posted by C. Ludwig:
...but I've never seen a 325 dominate.

Uh, Chris, sweetie, come visit up north a little more. Last weekend's OMP Challenge was what I personally would call "dominated" by the BMW 325: http://www.limerock.com/LRP-News/articles/news204.html

A point of reference, the top 3 cars would have been on the pole for the SpeedWorld Touring race. They set a new track lap record of 1:01 and change while the Touring polesitter was 1:02 and change.

Another point of reference: ITS driver Kip van Steenburg drove his BMW 325 to pole position and victory in the first race. He also had a Bimmerworld-prepared Touring car. He was about one to one-and-one-half seconds slower per lap in his Touring car, same track, day, afternoon, etc.

Granted, Touring runs Toyo street tires while the ITS Bimmers were on Hooisers, but the Touring cars get to do just a *tad* bit more to their cars than ITS (namely, wings, compression, camshafts, suspension mods? and what else?) Are Hoosiers enough to overcome increased horsepower, rear wings, better suspension pickups, ad nausea?

Something t'ain't right there...

I'd suggest that the reason you're not seeing more 325s out there in the rest of the country is possibly because a vast majority of them were sold in the northeast US where the income is higher but the car costs the same as everywhere else. These cars are a dime a dozen up here, I hear you can buy them for single-digit thousands now, especially wrecked and/or salvaged/stolen ones. Just sit tight, your turn's a'comin'.

After last weekend's race, I've coined a new phrase, which you're free to use:

'They're ain't no "W" without a BMW.'

GregA, loser with a 2-liter, four-cylinder, front wheel drive car stuck in ITS because "it's too fast for ITA." HAH! I guess nothing's too fast for ITS!

[Jared91]

I guess I have to give my two cents worth... I won the second race at LR that grega is talking about. I disagree about his comparison between the Speed Touring cars and the ITS BMWs. I had the pole in the first race with a time of 1:01.3, this would have placed me in seventh place on the Touring car grid. I drove behind Will Turner in is his Touring car during a practice day and almost drove in the back of him in the exit of the corners because of his lack of grip. The Touring car record is in the 59 second range when they ran BFG tires, so yes tires do make a huge difference on a handling/momentum track like LR.

ITSRX7, I very much doubt that you can legally get anywhere near 275 crank HP from an engine that has 190 crank HP stock. It just doesn't make sense within the ITS rules.

It is also weird that the BMWs don't do well on tracks that require a lot of HP like at the ARRC. In the NE the tracks are small momentum tracks that require good handling, not big HP.

Jared Gaillard
91 ITS BMW E36

[C. Ludwig]

Easy there guys. I qualified my remarks. Just commenting on my limited osservations.

Chris

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Chris Ludwig
08 ITS RX7 CenDiv

[Jared91]

:-)