323 Question

[323LX]

Just wondered how common the Mazda 323 is in ITB competition??

[AS-RACER]

No one races one in the Rocky Mountain Division. Mostly BMW's (in IT out here. What division are you from or state rather?

[323LX]

Well, I live in West Virginia...I'll be racing most likely in the Central divison. I have seen a couple of pics (read: 2) of ITB prepped 323s...I believe one was in New York, the other was (I think) near Chicago.

[tderonne]

We have a guy at Waterford with a GLC. Quite similar I believe.
And I race a Festiva, your car's smaller brother.
Are you new to the car? I'll try to dig up a contact for Mike (with the GLC). I know most of his setup in rough terms though. What you after?

Tim.

[Knestis]

It would be VERY interesting to see if you could get one down to the IT spec weight of 2060#. IF you could, it would be darn near the lightest ITB car out there. It doesn't have much power, relative to the competition but...

Kirk

[Knestis]

And ANOTHER thing...

The 1989 version of that car is spec'd 130# heavier than the '86-88 - and all of the other specifications are identical.

This IT weight anomoly has been brought to you by the creators of other great mysteries of our time - the Bermuda Triangle, El Chupacabra, and the odd color of Alan Bestwick's skin.

[Greg Gauper]

You forgot El Nino.

[323LX]

I'm not new to the car at all...actually, it's my first car that I got when I turned 16 (I'm 22 now), and I've done quite a few modifications to it for street. So you could say I know my way around it . Yes, the GLC is very similar...I've seen pics, but I dont believe I've ever really looked at one in person. As for your question about the weight, the 323s are pretty light. Mine is the heaviest model (its a sedan, for one, and the 'luxury' model, for another). It currently weights 2550lbs with myself (230lbs) in the car, and a full tank of fuel. I don't have my GCR yet, and I dont want to get flamed for asking a stupid question... but I assume I can strip out the interior pretty much other than dash...and of course my stereo has got to go...thats probably close to a hundred pounds right there. I enjoy wrenching on the car, and I am planning on taking a couple years to get the car ready. And yes, the car is quite underpowered...I'm pulling 84hp at the wheels at the moment with quite a few mods.
As for why the '89s are spec'd heavier, I'll have to get back to you. Thanks!

[Knestis]

You are right that it is a really important FIRST step to get a copy of the GCR. Order from www.scca.org or get in touch with your local region.

Be warned that most of the engine modifications you have made may well be illegal in IT. The rules always seem very limiting to people who are used to common improvements made to street cars...

Since it sounds like you are really into building your current car - rather than buying - start by assuming that you will need to put something in the neighborhood of $3000 into it, to be track ready. Basic stuff - no frills, not including track equipment, tow vehicle, trailer, or driver's gear.

Have fun!

Kirk

[Boswoj]

I know you have heard this from everyone until you are tired of hearing it but.......DON'T BUILD - BUY! I was exactly in your position a few years ago. I was absolutely positive that I would really enjoy the achievement of building my own racecar. I ignored all the dummies who had been racing for years who told me to buying was better than building. Two years of frustration and wasted time later, I happened on the same make and model (1st Gen Mazda Rx-7) that I was building, ready to race for a THIRD of what I had into a car that was still not ready to run! The racing is the fun part, and you will get more time that you want working on the car AFTER you buy a fully prepped car - trust me. Good racecars sell ALL THE TIME for fifty cents on the dollar (or less). Save your money and get out there and drive!

[Knestis]

He's got a case of TSS - twenty-something-syndrome - and won't listen to any of us old farts, Boswoj. Gotta love him for it, though - you MUST look back fondly on all of the symptoms...

** Tools don't count as expenses because they are "capital" that you will have as investments in the racing career

** The hardware, plumbing, wiring, and cans of paint/fluids/etc to install part X will not cost anything

** This will be cool and it only costs $50

** I will be earning money as I build the car so it won't matter that I am currently spending more than I can pay off each month

** The time when I am not working or building the car can be spent putting together sponsor deals

** I heard somewhere that only NERDS really care if you take out the rear wiper, passenger door window, dashboard and stock wiring harness

** I don't care if I am competitive or not

** Nobody will care if I use this "street" cam, since I'm not competitive

** If I subtract from the cost, what I could sell the car for when done, I haven't spent THAT much

** Since I've been driving it, I know how it handles, so it will be easier to learn to go really fast

** $1500 to rent a race car for just ONE WEEKEND? That's insane! I could do it for way less than that

** I will start with the stuff that I know how to do (like stripping the interior) before budgeting $1000 a cage - it has to be done first, anyway, right?

** I already have X dollars sunk into this project - it would be stupid to not spend whatever it takes to finish it. (Remember the hemorrhage of money before the first school? Drunken sailors got nothin' on someone with a novice permit in his hands!)

Seriously, 323. I know that some people have to touch the stove to find out that it is hot - I was one of those guys - but it is possible to learn from others' mistakes. If you do start to build your car, you do so only by promising that you will come back to this forum in the spring of 2005 and give us a full report. It might work out wonderfully and, if so, I will do the "I was wrong" dance in front of the entire board. On the other hand, the odds are against it.

Best,

Kirk

[rlekun]

Ditto Boswoj. Save your dollars up, even if it takes a while and buy a car...one you've seen race and you know its history. You've already hit on a key issue for the 323...lack of finding resources to support you. I'd recommend buying a car that there is plenty of parts and expertise available. And if you ever go to sell your race car, you'll have lots of buyers. Of course we're pretty partial to RX-7's around this thread...

[Tom Donnelly]

I just have one thing to say about build versus buy. You won't know how to properly build a race car until you have the experience driving a race car or working on a team. From my own experience you will pay half to buy a car than what it takes to build. Not counting the mistakes made in buying a 'trick' part you read about in a magazine that not only made you slower but emptied your wallet as well. Like the wrong shocks/springs/LSD/ring and pinion. And you barely hit the track yet. When you find yourself comparing the cost of everything to a set of tires (ie: no track time without tires), you can think about building. Just ask yourself what you would rather do, drive or build.

I guess that wasn't just one thing.

Tom

[323LX]

You guys do make some valid arguments...maybe if the right car comes along...

[323LX]

By the way, thanks again for all the help and suggestions!

[John Herman]

323LX, thought I would jump in on your side. I built my own first car. It took about a year to complete. At the time, everyone thought is was an old SS car, and couldn't believe I built it for IT. It wasn't the fastest by any means that first year, but I had a real sense of accomplishment. I am mechanically inclined, have many automotive contacts, and just KNEW I could do it. Yes, sometimes you will make mistakes, but then again, when you buy someone else's car, you're potentially buying their mistakes (they just won't tell you). The biggest advice I could give you is, know your limitations. I also have the same problem with no speed parts available for my car, but for me, that is part of the challenge of racing. Goodluck.

[Knestis]

Geez, I really didn't think that I wasn't "on his side"... Advice like this is really intended to help. What would we possibly have to gain by turning against someone who wants to run IT?

To the best of my recollection, only one person gave me the advice that I am sharing here - I listened to him enough that I finished my bachelors degree rather than running off to do the Jim Russell mechanic program, but NOT well enough to avoid wasting a lot of time and money making bad racing decisions.

Now, 20 years later, I am inclined to do a better job of it this time and feel like I have an obligation to at least say something. Feel free to ignore the hell out of me.

Kirk

[John Herman]

Kirk, guess I should have said, "I'll take the other side of the arguement." We (long time readers) have seen the build vs buy come up many times in the past. Sometimes it seems as though the majority of people responding say buy. For a number of people, that is probably a correct way to do it. However, I have seen several uninformed people buy a prebuilt car, only to discover they were loaded with problems. Boswoj made the comment, would you rather drive or build. Well these people ended up repairing and DNFing more than anything else. It turned out to be quite frustrating. Just wanted to offer up another opinion. In closing, I'll borrow from you,"feel free to ignore the hell out of me "

[323LX]

If anybody becomes hears of an IT-B 323 that is for sale, please let me know...I will be checking the classifieds and ebay and what-not (I actually saw one on ebay about a month or two ago, it was selling for under $3000, and they were offering a trailer and some extra parts I believe for an extra $800. Would have been a bit of a long haul to pick it up, but that sounded like a heck of a deal. Nothing against the RX-7s, but I'd really like to run a 323 if it's at all possible... I like being different

[323LX]

Excuse my grammar in the last post...I'm used to being able to edit my posts . And thanks again for all of the help and suggestions...and I should say that I am not definitely buying...I'm just seriously considering the option.