GSR's versus Z cars and E36's

[four27]

Interested to know how my fellow GSr ITS cars are doing around the country. I am not seeing very many GSR wins in the Fast Track.
Here in PDX Ore I find my car is a best 1.5 sec slower than the Z cars and as much as 3 seconds. I seem to be able to stay with them in the turns but they get me by 4 to 5 car lenths or more on the straights. I think we are being penalized to much with the weight at 2690. I run 60 pounds of ballast to get to the weight with half tank of fuel. We have no E36 cars runniung out here.

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Ron Cramer
#55 94 GSR
ITS/RS

[spsspeed]

Ron,

Down here in the Southeast there are mostly fast RX-7s and then once you get into Atlanta and north a few BMWs pop up.

We have won at Sebring, Roebling Road and Moroso. Most of those are pretty good handling tracks, although Sebring (long course) has a few long straights.

A couple of the other GSR (there are a total of 4 in Florida that I know of) they have won at Moroso and Homestead.

We don't have any fast Z cars so I can't compare against them, but the RX-7 I think whoever gets the best run out of the turn will be the fastest at the end of the straight. The BMW on the other hand are just fast in a straight line.

Tracks like VIR, Road Atlanta and Daytona they will have an advantage. They also have a couple more years of development time in them and good tuner shops like Bimmerworld making some good parts .

All the GSRs down here have about 50-100lbs of ballast that does not help at all. But overall I think the car is a great car, super fun to drive and a few more tweaks here and there and we will be all set.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GSR

[Greg Gauper]

Nathan Bonneau built a very fast one earlier in the year and won a few times in Cen-Div before rolling it at Road America half-way thru the season.

He's been too busy as crew for Real Time Racing's WC effort to get it back together for the second half of the season.

[four27]

Scott, nice to hear from you. It was the article in Grassroots on your car that motivated me to build my 94 last year. The Z cars are loaded with tork and are very fast on turns. the good news is I do well against them in the rain--after all we are in Oregon!. I have made allot of changes in my car for 03 so we will see.

Would like to trade some specs with you if you are inclined. Let me know [email protected]

[Catch22]

Well, after running my 94 GSR with the NASA Honda Challenge last year I've decided to do a few SARRC races in '03 to see how well I can do. I'll mostly be running at Road Atlanta.

I too agree that the 2690 is wayyyy too much weight for this car. I ran NASA last year at 2620lbs (1/2 tank) and I'm a 225lb driver. Geez am I ever NOT looking forward to adding that 70lb chunk of lead to my car
.

I agree with Scott. The car handles great and is a blast to drive, but it has nothing for the BMWs and RX7s down a long straight. I'd love to see the minimum weight dropped to about 2600, we'd really have a fighting chance then.

I have not run an SCCA race yet, but looking at my lap times compared to top region ITS cars on the same tracks in similar weather, I tend to be about 2 seconds off the fastest cars. Of course, that was at 2620lbs...

If anybody wants to put together a petition to get the weight dropped, I'd certainly get in line to sign it. But since I'm a rookie I won't try to start such a thing.

Scott G., who will likely be bugging Scott S. for tips all winter long.

[Catch22]

Well, after running my 94 GSR with the NASA Honda Challenge last year I've decided to do a few SARRC races in '03 to see how well I can do. I'll mostly be running at Road Atlanta.

I too agree that the 2690 is wayyyy too much weight for this car. I ran NASA last year at 2620lbs (1/2 tank) and I'm a 225lb driver. Geez am I ever NOT looking forward to adding that 70lb chunk of lead to my car
.

I agree with Scott. The car handles great and is a blast to drive, but it has nothing for the BMWs and RX7s down a long straight. I'd love to see the minimum weight dropped to about 2600, we'd really have a fighting chance then.

I have not run an SCCA race yet, but looking at my lap times compared to top region ITS cars on the same tracks in similar weather, I tend to be about 2 seconds off the fastest cars. Of course, that was at 2620lbs...

If anybody wants to put together a petition to get the weight dropped, I'd certainly get in line to sign it. But since I'm a rookie I won't try to start such a thing.

Scott G., who will likely be bugging Scott S. for tips all winter long.

[James Clay]

Originally posted by Catch22:
I have not run an SCCA race yet, but looking at my lap times compared to top region ITS cars on the same tracks in similar weather, I tend to be about 2 seconds off the fastest cars. Of course, that was at 2620lbs...

But since I'm a rookie I won't try to start such a thing.

2 seconds off the fastest cars or two seconds off the fastest drivers in the fastest cars? Scott S. runs well with the E36 cars from what I have seen.

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
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[Catch22]

I was referring to typical SAARC results. Excluding the ARRC, where the ante always gets upped a bit.

Honestly, I don't see a legal, 2690lb, ITS GSR running 1:41s at Road Atlanta regardless of who is driving it. I think Fowler's best Prelude time is in the 1:43s and it has about the same power and a TON more torque than the GSR. It weighs 10lbs more, so that is basically a non-factor.

[four27]

I heard a story that when the jGSR first came out they had it in ITA. the cars reportedly won going away and the SCCA then decided to move them to ITS and put a weight penalty to them. They claim the VTEC is the equilvelent of a cam. that may be true but it still only has 4 cylinders. Not sure if this story is true. there is a huge debate on most of the chat rooms about redoing IT categories. I wrote SCCA awhile back on the weight issue and suggested they drop the weight to 2590 and see what happens. No response. the best thing we can do for now is share car prep info. Scott S seems to be the go to guy on that subject.


Ron Cramer
#55 ITS GSR Oregon division

[James Clay]

Originally posted by Catch22:
Honestly, I don't see a legal, 2690lb, ITS GSR running 1:41s at Road Atlanta regardless of who is driving it. I think Fowler's best Prelude time is in the 1:43s and it has about the same power and a TON more torque than the GSR. It weighs 10lbs more, so that is basically a non-factor.

Unfortunately, RA seems like it will always be the track for the ARRC and if doesn't favor the Honda. When I raced Tom last at Charlotte last year, his car was very quick and finished the sprint in front of me. Different cars will be better at different tracks.

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Catch22]

I agree James. Different tracks, different weather conditions, etc., etc., are all factors.

And I'll admit that I have a certain inherent bias towards the GSR because I have one. But I honestly look at the package as a whole and can't understand why it is saddled with so much weight. I've heard the "SCCA is scared of VTEC" argument and I don't buy that. The del sol has VTEC...

In the end, as a whole package, the GSR is an example of a car that could be made more competitive with a serious weight reduction. It's a great car with good power, but it has no torque and weak brakes (the exact same brakes found on the Civic EX and del sol, both of which are significantly lighter).

I don't want ANY car, including mine, to have a big advantage due to arbitrary weight rules. That doesn't bode well for any of us. I also don't want any car to have a big disadvantage due to arbitrary weight rules for the same reasons.

The GSR (again, only an example as there are others) is a perfect example of a car that carrys ALOT of extra weight and hasn't really done all that well. At least not well enough to justify the extra pounds. Scott S. has some top finishes but he certainly has not been dominant by any means.

No, I don't believe you can make EVERY car competitive. But there is no sense in taking a car that COULD be competitive and throwing 100lbs of lead in it for no apparent reason.

I hope I'm making sense. It's sometimes hard to express yourself via internet board.

[James Clay]

You make sense and I hear you. What is the answer - SCCA won't make a competition adjustment. Seems like IT has outgrown its intended size and these issues should be handled similar to a national class...

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James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

[il8apex]

Catch22- Yeah, the Comp Board seems to be "scared of VTEC," and it doesn't make sense to me either. Do you know a VTEC Honda (Del Sols included) that is competitive in ITS? My '93 Civic EX is a bit outclassed, even running at a race weight of 2305 lbs. If I had some brakes I'd be a lot happier...

Still anxious to see how the GSR fares against others, like the 2nd Gen RX7. I would think that the Acuras could corner as well as they do at any weight. Pray for short straights!

-T

[Catch22]

I personally think that there should be a weight system that takes 3 simple factors into consideration. In order...

1. Power to weight
2. Torque
3. Brakes

In essence, what you would do is start out trying to get the p/w ratio of every car within a certain class within a certain range. Say 14 to 16.5 for ITS, 16.5 to 19 for ITA, etc. Then you account for torque and brake performance by giving cars with low torque and weaker brakes a further weight reduction (or add weight to cars with more torque and better brakes).
Its simplistic, but it's something. It's especially beneficial in an environment where there are no competition adjustments.
Let's face it. "No Comp Adjustments" is fair as long as you get things right in the first place. Saddling a car with too much weight, making it uncompetitive, and then saying "sorry, we don't make adjustments" isn't beneficial to ANYONE.

Now, there will always be the "how do you get valid power numbers?" argument. Sure. I understand that there will always be people who understate what they're getting etc., etc. But let's be honest. Everyone in the IT community knows ABOUT what each car is getting power wise. One top car may have 5hp more and another may have 5 less, but you can still get close enough to the ballpark to make things work.

It benefits everyone to have all cars evenly matched. At least as evenly as possible. It's no fun for anybody, even the driver of the dominant car, for there to be a dominant car walking all over everyone.
We (well, most of us) don't get paid to do this. It's for fun. Close competition is more fun for everyone involved.

[N Bonneau]

My 2 cents! I believe that the GSR is about 100 to 125lbs to heavy. My car is over 150 LBS under with my fat ass in the car "250". The brakes on the car are way undersized for the class. I know that SCCA Hates with a passion VTEC. And will never give it any kind of adjustment. But there should be saftey issues.

[Catch22]

Therein lies the issue. How do you demonstrate that it needs 100 less pounds and who do you demonstrate it to?
Is the fact that the car really hasn't been terribly successful in 2 years and everybody is adding 75 to 100lbs to get it to minimum weight enough? Would adding Grand Am's weight (2400 w/o driver) to the equation help? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a...

Sorry, got carried away again.

I guess (again) that my whole point is that I understand that not all cars can or will be competitive. But it benefits no one to take a car that could be competitive and kill it with an arbitrary minimum weight.

[Knestis]

You might not have been around yet when we played with it but take a look at http://www.evaluand.com/it2/weightform.htm and see what you think. The factors are a little arbitrary and you can't compare cars weights under the current system with those using this hypothetical formula, but it can be interesting to play with other ideas.

I am working on a new system that considers displacement, valve area, and valve train type...

Kirk

[N Bonneau]

I think that SCCA didn't get the weight right when they classified the car in the begining. It sounded to me like they did not have all the right numbers to start with and are not willing to rectify the the problem. It's just like they are so reluctant to classify the GSR in EP.

[Catch22]

Kirk,
Why does your formula change the multiplier for Variable Valve Timing cars? I have seen multiple dyno sheets on Honda VTEC cars prepared to or close to IT rules and the VVT cars see no more gain than non VVT cars.
This misconception may be the root of the SCCA saddling the GSR with so much weight.
<Caveman voice on> "Oooooo... VTEC Bad" <caveman voice off>.

From what I've seen, Well built GSRs can see about 170 to 180 hp at the wheels (yes, I know all dynos and all cars are different, thats why I put a 10hp range in there. Trust me, it's close).
Well built, front running CRX Sis can see as much as 115 to 120 at the wheels.

Stock stated Si power - 110
Stock stated GSR power - 172

The VTECs gains in IT trim aren't any better than the completely VTEC-free CRX.

Fact is that the Honda VTEC powerplants are so damned good from the factory that there aren't really any big time LEGAL gains in there. Nothing in the ballpark of what I've seen on 13B rotaries.
Hell, a friend of mine took a stock 150K mile 13b last year and baselined it at 129whp. Then added an open air intake (homemade job), header and 3" exhaust with no cat along with some magic exhaust port tuning (I have no clue here, but the motor was never opened up) and the car dynoed up (same dyno, same weather) at 160whp.
You'll never see gains that easy and cheap from a VTEC Honda.

Now where's that nasty VTEC monster? Under my bed maybe?
Putting it in the same "potential gains" category as a rotary is a big mistake. But this thought process could explain alot.

[mavis]

Gotta put my two cents in here since I'm thinkng of building a GSR. Some of my sources from England (pro touring car series with VTEC engines and factory support) indicate that 190+hp is do-able with the GSR. Will advise once more info available


Also, with EXTENSIVE experience with SCCA and Volkswagen I would advise against wasting time with any petition about weight. We tried for 2 years to get the weight reduced for the A1 GTI with absolutely no results despite wide-based support.

Finally, check out the results in the Northeast region. There's a guy who seems to beat most all of the BMW's on a regular basis at Summitt. (Fast lap nearly always as fast as BMW). Got to agree with S. Seck. Once these things are tuned they're gonna be fine.

[This message has been edited by mavis (edited November 19, 2002).]