Anyone Building 92-95 Civic DX For ITA?

[NoRaceCarYet]

http://forums.improvedtouring.com/it/ubbcode.html Follow this to the UBBCode information page.

[This message has been edited by NoRaceCarYet (edited October 25, 2001).]

[NoRaceCarYet]

Just think of the sponsorship potential of a newer body style Honda in So.Cal. (Ohmigod! ... I got goose bumps!)

2100 pounds... as much as 2200 - 2300... but at 2300 it becomes an "also-ran"

[downingracing]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Matt, I'll get started right away. Buy the way, I would love to post some of my designs on this site, (If I am aloud) How do I attach files to my post?</font>[/b]

No rush Dan. I'm just considering my options... Paint will be dependant on how much $$ the motor costs!

http://forums.improvedtouring.com/it/ubbcode.html

This link will take you to the page with all the answers.

(You might be looking at some good part-time income!)

See ya



------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com

[p.keane]

You guys should try to get something in writing from the Comp Board stating the Civic will stay in ITA. Take it from me, if your Honda goes to fast the board will move it to ITS. I just went through a year long battle over the Accord and lost."Competition potential" and "Honda's race better than the sum of their parts" was their basis. It is a real pain in the a-- to spend three years developing a car to have it taken away on potential.

[JohnW]

.........p.keane is 100% right!!!!!

Get it in writing!!! What happened to the ITB Accord is total B.S. and you bet I'll be pulling for the Accords at the ARRC.

Weight also..... if the car is @ 2300 plus... big problems.

" Hondas race better than the sum of their parts"..... did they really use that? You have got to be kidding!!!!! What kind of logic is that? Christ.. maybe I better go race with another club.

[downingracing]

The weight for the EX in ITS is 2305. It will be interesting to see what the weight for the ITA car is...

The only thing going for us is that the DX is not a VTEC. The Comp. Board REALLY has an issue with the VTEC! It took me 7 MONTHS to get them to consider the Limited Prep. Prod. classification because of "competition potential" (I still don't know what that means!)

Hopefully the weight for the DX will be around 2000 - 2100. Hurry up and wait...


------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com

[danielbeeson]

To: Anthony Machi
From: Dan Beeson

Anthony, I keep getting a "Undeliverable E-mail" maessage evry time I send you a reply. Let me know if you are recieving my e-mails.

Thanks, Dan Beeson

[downingracing]

This is the ITS version...



"Design by Dan"

Hopefully you can see this car in 2002...


------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com

[Knestis]

VERY nice work, Dan--both design and graphic execution. If looks would put Downing on the pole, he'd be there!

My bachelor's degree was in Industrial Design and I used to have about $300 worth of markers to do illustrations with. I am officially a dinosaur.

Again, nice work...

Kirk

[downingracing]

Originally posted by Knestis:
VERY nice work, Dan--both design and graphic execution. If looks would put Downing on the pole, he'd be there!
Kirk

If you can't be fast, you might as well look good!!!

Still working on the motor options... Trans should be done by Dec. and suspension is a Christmas present to myself!

"Looking forward to 2002"



------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com

[danielbeeson]

Thanks Kirk...
These were done on the computer. I used to do them with markers as well, but times are a changing. If anyone is interested in having me design there paint scheme, contact me. [email protected]

Thanks again

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The big difference is in the chassis. Reinforcement of the body structure is the biggie here, primary in shock towers, etc. The suspensions also gain a little leeway, especially in moving and reinforcing pickup points. </font>

Tom, you should check the rules again. If you're talking about a limited prep car, you can't do anything to the suspension p/u points. At best, you're allowed an alternate or reinforced lower control arm. You can only move/alter/reinforce the p/u points in a full-prep car.

And to add further confusion to the mix. The rumor is is that the CB considers the ball joint a p/u point, so you can't add a ball joint spacer or modify the knuckle where it attaches.

And BTW, I think the 'competition potential' arguement is BS. If the car proves to be too fast for a class, move it up. But don't do it based on theoretical performance. If Denver (Topeka?) would get off their collective asses and come up w/ a reasonable formula for classifying IT cars, it would make this whole thing a lot easier.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

[il8apex]

Bill-

Yeah, a full prep car is what I was referring to. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

I don't know if I should take up room here or find the Prod. BBS, but is the ball joint really a pick-up point? No knuckle modification? That would mean no (or very little) roll center modification...

And along the same lines, does the comp board let you change the type of pick-up, like from a pillow mount to a spherical bearing? I've heard of IT guys doing this...

-T

[Bill Miller]

Tom,

Yeah, kind of hard to believe that someone's trying to claim a ball joint is a pickup point, but that's what the story is.

To answer your question, there's not much you can do to a FWD strut car to help the roll center. For a VW, that limits ride height to ~5". Compared to some of the 510's and such that I've seen in GProd, the things will look like SUV's!!!

The only thing you're allowed in l-p is different bushings and alternate or reinforced control arms. The mounts have to remain as stock.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

[Knestis]

Any updates on ITA DXs? Has there been any indication of the spec weights and/or clarification of whether both body styles are listed?

Thanks for any new info...

Best,

Kirk

[Knestis]

Public thanks to Greg U. for forwarding me the specs on the ITA Civic DX, in advance of GCR deliveries. Having said that...

>> 2330 POUNDS ? <<

For a NON-VTEC, 1500cc, 16v, SOHC engine that makes 102hp and 98ft-lb of torque in stock form. In ITA. Argh.

Setting aside all of the wacky crap that surfaces if we compare BETWEEN manufacturers for a moment - comparing apples to apples - this is almost 200# heavier than the '88-91 CRX, which has 100cc more displacement in an engine of similar specs. The CRX IT-spec weight is 150# lighter than stock curb, while the DX race weight is more than 100# HEAVIER THAN STOCK (data from the same source). Maybe the CRX has to be lighter because it punches a smaller hole in the air, huh?

Those of you familiar with my ramblings know that I am reasonably agreeable but I have officially lost ALL confidence in the people making these decisions. It would have been painfully easy to do anything besides be stupid in this case, given all of the other Honda models classified and the body of race knowledge built up around them.

To heck with "racing better than the sum of its parts". The new standard appears to be "racing better than the SQUARE of the sum of its parts". If I have missed something or am ignorant of a pertinent fact in this case, I will write a lengthy, public apology - until then, those responsible can bite me.

Kirk

[JohnW]

Kirk....

Your right.

I couldn't of said it better myself.

How did they come up with 2300 lbs???????

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

Now you understand the frustration I have re: VW weights. Courtesy of several people, I have a large body of information that documents what the VW weights are. This ranges from mfg. sales brochures to NADA data, to certified weigthts in race trim (by a chief scruitineer) to MVMA data. Interestingly enough, I've also got a letter from the former head of the IT Advisory Committee that states that MVMA weights are "considered gospel in the industry". Yet I've also heard other SCCA officials claim that MVMA data from VW, BMW, and Porsche was suspect.

I've submitted the information again, and have been told that it will be on the CB agenda.

As far as the Honda in question goes, I have no idea how that weight was arrived at. I do see this as just one more piece of supporting evidence that points to the need for a public, universaly-applied set of guidelines for classifying and setting the spec weight for IT cars (I won't even go into Prod). It may be premature to go after the ability to adjust weights based on performance/results, but the time has come for the establishement (and use) of the previously mentioned guidelines.

I'd be curious as to what answers anyone has gotten as to how the Civic DX weight was arrived at.

On a side note, I asked on the Prod BB how L-P car classifications were made, and how spec weights were set, and, while the board is frequented by at least one CB member, I have gotten no information as to how. Oh well.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

[davew]

FYI: Roger Foo's yellow Pro Spec 94 civic dx hatch is for sale. I think he is only asking $6k or less for the full rolling chassis w/ cage, seat, suspension, wheels/tires, halon, etc etc...with the right motor it could be very competive, and I can't think of any mods done to it that would keep it from being legal in IT...nothing beyond very minor things atleast. his email is:

[email protected]

if anybody is interetested in it...

[downingracing]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Kirk,

On a side note, I asked on the Prod BB how L-P car classifications were made, and how spec weights were set, and, while the board is frequented by at least one CB member, I have gotten no information as to how. Oh well.

When you get in contact with someone, ask about the 94 Civic EX. They put it in LP E Prod. No chance for it to be competitive.

Thanks!